Hello All,

I recently had my 89 5.7L Camaro die on the move from NY to NC. I had to leave the car at a mechanic, and then had the car towed to a dealership. The dealership has had it for a week with no luck, so I figured I would see if anyone has experieced these symptoms before.

After driving for 3 hours, I pulled into a rest stop. I spent maybe 15 minutes, then got back into the car and left the rest stop. I gotta going, was on the on ramp and started accelearting. The RPMs stayed high, and propulsion cut out. I coasted to a stop and the car died. I tried to restart, the car would turn over, but wouldnt start. I noticed an odd vibration which seemed to come from the rear right hand corner of the car, under acceleartion. This started right before I pulled into the rest stop.

I waited an hour, car restarted seemed to rev ok. I proceeded onto the highway made it a couple hundred yards, symptoms repeated, except this time I lost power, brakes were hard, turning was tough etc.

At that point I figured I better get it towed. The first mechanic complained that he didnt have the right scan tool and couldnt scan it, so I had it towed to a chevy dealership. When it arrived at the Chevy dealership, they had to drive it around to get it to fail again. They've said different things including EGR valve, and distributor, but I call back the next day and then they have no clue. I thought maybe the cat was clogging, but they checked it and said it was ok. Its been a week, so either they arent giving it their full attention or its something really sneaky. The rental car bill is starting to add up so I'm hoping to get this resolved

If any one has experienced something similiar, or has some advice I would appreciate it. When the dealership figures it out, I will definitely post the result.

Thanks,
Martin

 

Any dealership which holds a car for over a week without a diagnosis is NOT a reputable place. Get your car out of their. And.. any mechanic who says they need the right scan tool for an OBDI ecm is a moron. A problem like this shouldn't call for the scan tool and.. does your check engine light come on when this happens? You start with the basics first:

It's most likely an electrical/ignition problem because it does restart. Have you checked your tps sensor recently? It could be a number of things. Get it to a GOOD shop if your in over your head!

 

my car did the same thing and all it was .. was a fuel filter ... it was clogged like hell ... it would even kinda die out and then i would floor it and like 10 seconds would pass before enough fuel would build up and get though .. really .. have you ever replaced taht alot of poeple here over look such a small thing.

 

No SES light, doesnt throw any codes. I knew the first place was a group of morons. I'm in a lousy situation because I'm in NC and the car is stuck in NJ. I figure I will give them till the end of the week. Do you think the best bet is to have it towed to another dealership? I haven't touched the TPS sensor, it definitely does seem like its something throwing off the ECM because of the combined set of symptons.

I did mention the fuel filter to the first place, I assumed they checked, I havent changed it in 30k miles. I will let them know tommorrow, but I'd hope the dealership would catch lack of fuel?

Thanks,
Martin

 

These are some of the easiest cars to work on. Chances are its either ignition or fuel related. If you have access to the proper tools, check timing and fuel pressure. I think you can rent a fuel pressure tester and timing light at Autozone. If those check out, go with plugs, wires, cap, and rotor. I would bet it has something to do with one of the afore mentioned items.

 

Check your rear end, its a wild guess but maybe an axle is broke and thats why you felt that vibration coming from the rear.

If the engine revs fine under no load then it might be something wrong with your drivetrain.

 

I thought it might've been something related to the drivetrain, but the car did start up and run two days after the initial problem. The fuel filter makes a lot of sense, I wish I had it here in NC instead of 400 miles away.

Thanks for all the ideas,
Martin

 

I would suggest one of two things.... either your fuel filter is clogged, or you have a dying/dead ignition module. Sometimes, when they are dying, they don't work when hot, but given a chance to cool off somewhat, it will work enough to run the engine untill it gets warm again. Thats what happened to mine a few years ago, changed it out, never missed a beat since.

The ignition module is not expensive or hard to replace. Its just chillin' out (no pun intended) under the distributor cap. I would suggest trying that.

 

Called today, they said they checked the fuel filter. They think its the ignition also. They told me they were taking so long because they dont want to start swapping out parts until they know whats wrong, and that they dont have a lot of parts that they could try off the shelf. Hopefully I'll hear for sure tommorrow.

Martin

 

Whatever happened to DIAGNOSING problems.....all these guys seem to want to do is throw parts at it until something works. If you think it's losing spark, CHECK IT, don't throw an ICM, coil, and distributor on it and if it works, say well it's one of those, here's your bill for $1000.

As adam said, the ICM is a common cause of a hot stall/no-start... Especially if it's a Wells unit, they tend to be garbage.

 

 

Im gonna call ignition....

Question 1.. Is this car posi traction or Open diff? If the rear is vibrating the clutch might be sticking. If not, then I would definitely hook up a fuel pressure gauge to see whats going on.. Cause if the car is in park nothing in the back of the car should be moving, other than the fuel pump.

Have them test your ICM or Ignition Control Module. This piece if heated will cause the exact same condition that you are expriencing. While they are down there I would have them pull the distributor and replace the pickup coil.. The pickup coil for A/C Delco lists for approximately 14.99, the icm ranges from $37.00-80.00.. Then count on the fact that the dealership is going to mark up these parts to list price. Stock electrical equpiment should be on its death bed by now, so yeah.. This is all they have to do..

Warm the car up.

Test Injector pulse, and fuel pressure. Then check for spark.. if one test fails you have found your problem.. Fuel Filters range from Purolators for 2 bucks to your $25 jobber.
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Also have them test to see if your plug wires are arcing (ark-ing)...

 

Sure sounds like an ignition problem to me as well. Either the pickup coil, or the ignition control module (as already mentioned). I had ~very~ similar symptoms on my TPI 305 when the ICM died. Make sure they put a decent amount of dielectric grease between the bottom of the ICM and the base of the distributor too if they install one. What dealership is the car at in NJ?

 

Sounds like all you guys should be technicians making lots of money. There are a lot of problem cars out there that are hard to diagnose, even with all the fancy equipment. Sometimes time and a few techs are needed to fix a car. One mechanic can't fix every car, and if someone tells you they can, their lying.

 

Easy there, buddy. Remember, this is an 18 year old car we're talking about, not some OBD II-powered 3-year old Cavalier that will tell you exactly what's wrong by plugging a SnapOn Scantool in. This car does not need fancy equipment to diagnose. A few flowcharts, the Electrical Service manual, and a voltmeter, that's about it.

The problem is that the car is at a dealership, and there might be one older guy that remembers these cars and worked on them when they were new. A ~lot~ of the young guys that work in dealerships wouldn't even know where to find the manuals in the back room to work on the car, much less follow flow charts to diagnose and fix the problem.

Many of us (myself included) have had similar symptoms, and might be able to give them a hint on where to look next. 18-year old electrical parts occasionally fail, ya know.

 

Shop manuals are on computers now, not in a back room. It's very easy to find things.

Usually its the younger guys with more of the electrical/computer knowledge compared to the old-timers due to updated education.

A simple scope could diagnose this problem... 12v primary coil....

If you work in a shop, you cannot always rely on a scantool. If you took Electronics I,II, and III - this should be simple.(OBDI/II)

 

Even OBDII cars can't tell you the problem. These are just diagnostic aids. A human being still has to dig in. And it does take a lot of knowledge and experience to be able to take the diagnostic info and translate it to hands on tracing the problem. It could be a matter of a simple ground wire, that someone didn't hook back up, in some hard to get to area you can't see. Every car is an individual just like people. Especially 18 year old cars with their own manerisms.

 

The fact of the matter is, this Chevy dealership has had this guy's car a WEEK, and it's not resolved yet - at least until he pops in again on this thread and tells us what happened. I'm not a trained mechanic, nor do I claim to be an expert. And my car is the only TPI car I've worked on, but I have learned quite a bit by studying the Electrical Service Manual and reading here.

I don't think it's fair for any stealership to hold on to a car for a week and not be able to fix the problem. They're not doing major surgery, like R&Ring a motor and trans! They have to fix a minor electrical gremlin. And if they can't, they should own up to it and tell the guy instead of swinging him around making up excuses.

 

I also agree with the ignition module.

 

Thats alll the techs do at the dealerships. They get a general idea of what the car is doing (diagnostic) then go down the list of possible causes and toss parts at it until somthing sticks. If your lucky they may take the parts that dident work off, if not they charge you. There are very few qualified techs nowdays at the dealrships with all thier techs fresh out of the GMAC training if they cant plug a scanner on somthing and pull a 02 code there not going to figure it out until the parts bin is empty.


Funny story.

My brother who Ive been fighting with for a year now called me up and asked if I could look at his car, 95 camaro 3.4 rebuilt and moded by yours truely about 2 years ago. He was having a rough start condition and a intermitant sputter. So I look at it see a new EGR valve on it. Apperently he took it to autozone for a diagnostic in the 1 year time frame. I scan it no codes, he insists the EGR is bad again. I tell him to listen and trip all 3 solenoids with the scanner, click, click, click. I look under the hood pull the FPR vacuum line off and it's got fuel in it. I tell him it needs a FPR. He gets ticked insists it's the EGR and leaves. Calls me 3 days latter after taking it to chevy and paying $300 for spark plugs and wires and it's still doing it. Me being nice I say go get the FPR repair kit $45 and lets put it on. 1 hour later the car starts and runs perfect. He even told the SM that his brother who is a mechanic (me) said he found a problem with the FPR.


Now BTT if I had to guess I'd agree with IGN module or coil failure.

 

"Funny story..."

He may have told them he thinks it needs a "TUNE UP" or they may have talked him in to a "TUNE UP" and since he didn't listen to you doesn't want to fess up to it. I've talked to lots of customers and asked why they replaced this or why they did that, and get that blank stare back like they don't know what I'm talking about. Most diagnostics done, are having to find things that have been done wrong by past repairs, because someone tried to "Bandaid it", didn't know what they were doing, or hooking things back the way they are supposed to be, then digging in from ground zero.

 

Two words.......ignition modual... l

 

Hello All,

Thanks for the replys. Long story short dealer said it was fixed, it died 45 miles later, tried another shop (not a dealer) they didnt have a clue either, I had it towed down and it sat until now.

When the car first came down (back in Sept. I think) I drove it home, it had an awful vibration and the response was terrible. I starting thinking about it and came up with it was really humid that day (wires insuluation bad?). Last week it was nice out so I swapped the wires and plugs (definitely needed it, the spark plugs appeared to be carbon fouled I'm assuming it was running rich in limp home mode). Cap and rotor were changed for good measure, along with a new coil. I started her up today, responsiveness is back and seems to be idling fine. I scaned the car with an autoxray and everything appeared normal. Igntion seems to be good.

Now for the vibration. It shakes pretty bad when I put it into gear. In reverse it sounds like the cat is bouncing off of the heat sheild. In drive, the cat isnt noisy but still a vibration. The vibration lessons as I give the car gas. I looked around the engine bay and found chunks of rubber down around the passenger side engine mount. I'm thinking the engine mounts bad and its screwing up the drivetrain geometry. I posted a message over in suspension and am hoping to get some more ideas.

I wish the car would have died closer to home, but atleast I got a good deal on having it transported down.

Martin

 

so this vibration does it only happen in gear or in park too? sounds like you might have a dead cylinder... one of your injectors not firing?

 

Only in gear, and its different depending if I'm in reverse or drive.

Martin

 

If the tranny give a nice good "clunk" when it is put into gear, put your hand against the tranny tunnel and see if you fell it hitting. It may be a bad tranny mount as well.

 

Yeap, thats a good thought, The tranny mount is newer (I replaced it probably 2 years ago.) poly so it should be good. I'm gonna have to get a friend over to shift the car while I'm poking around.

Martin

 

Put the car in drive and do a (simulated) brake torque....if you get a large clunk as you get out of the gas I would say D/S motor mount is bad. You can have someone watch the motor as you do this....if the d/s jumps way up then you know that is a problem.....just don't have the person stand IN FRONT of the car as you do this! Also if the trans mount is gone it will lift the driveshaft/trans yoke up into the floor and give you a vibration under load and especially under hard acceleration. I have seen these transmissions actually misalign themselves by an inch or more on the crossmember when they go bad. It would not surprise me if they are both bad.

 

About the vibration issue. when the cars in neutral, does it rev slow or respond normally?. i'm thinking thats it's possible your TCC is stuck partially engaged, that will give you a nasty vibration. Hows the car accelerate from a stop? does it bog like hell or normal? just some ides that no one mentioned yet. BTW which dealer in jersey did you bring it to? I live in jersey so i might know which one your talking about.

 

I have an 89' 2.8 v6 camaro, way different but mine had the problem you stated earlier about hard brakes, hard turning, no throttle, etc. I had it towed and the technician said my timing chain was bad. You said you fixed the problem except the vibrating and such. Needless to say I tore it apart my chain had eaten away my chain guide. I'm not sure if yours is chain or belt but its something to think about if you cant figure it out.

 

The dealer was Sansone Chevrolet in Perth Amboy. They had a lot of cars they were servicing so I was suprised with the results I had.

The car revs fine in neutral. I noticed today that it really had a heck of a time accelerating in gear. I cant really drive it around, inspection, plates, registrations all expired. Maybe I can sneak it around the block.

I did engage the brakes and try to accelerate, it wouldnt go much above 1k-1.5k RPMs, it definitely would break the tires loose before. This was after the car was warm. When I moved the car before I stored it for the winter, it bogged like this. I only drove it about three miles, but it felt completely different. No acceleration at all. When it is in neutral or park it is definitely responsive, revs fine.

I did check the motor mounts by reving the car under the hood using the throttle blades, it didnt twist noticeably.

What do you think Onebad89RS? How do you deal with/ check a partially stuck torque converter? This is definitely something I didnt think of.

 

From the symptoms you described in your last reply, I'd place a sizeable bet that it's the catalytic converter. The honeycomb type material inside the cat starts to break apart in chunks when they get old and worn out. This happened on my car. A good sized chunk broke loose inside the cat, and lodged in the outlet of the cat, which blocked about 80% of the exhaust flow. Mine would also rev up great in park or neutral, but I wasn't able to accelerate or pass anyone if my life depended on it. Have whatever shop it's at unbolt the intermediate pipe from the back of the cat, and shine a flashlight into the cat. I'll bet it's plugged up with debris from the honeycomb ceramic type material coming apart. I just took a long prybar and finished breaking up the material, and shook it out in a garbage can, or in other words, I hollowed out the cat. You have to remove the y-pipe/cat from the car to do this. Or if you want to do it the legal way, just have an exhaust shop put a new converter on. The symptoms you describe sound exactly like a blocked exhaust to me.

 

Yeap, I thought it was the cat too at first. I had a new one put in at the first dealership.

Martin

 

So far, we've established that the car is a 1989 Camaro, 350 auto (making it a TPI) and it died while driving. The engine would restart intermittently after some time.

One dealership "said they checked the fuel filter". I'm not certain what that means, other than that they may have looked at it, removed it and looked at it, or replaced it. Any hints here?

One dealership installed an FPR repair kit, leading me to understand that they determined there was a problem with fuel pressure or delivery. Apparently, that did not solve the problem.

You now have the car readily available, and can work on it without a 400 mile commute.

Since I failed to see any real data posted anywhere in the entire thread, I have to ask that you test fuel pressure and report the actual numbers you get, rather than "pressure is O.K." You can either purchase a fuel pressure gauge for about $50 or rent/borrow one. Either way, you need to test and report actual fuel pressure.

Furthermore, I failed to see anywhere that anyone performed a fuel system FLOW test. The pump MUST deliver at a minimum 1 pint of fuel in 15 seconds of running at 43 PSIG. Anything less than that will cause starvation.

I have to commend you on your patience, however. This is getting close to ten months old.

 

At first it was tough, ended up having to get another car. Now that I have another car, I can take my time.

I've got a new fuel filter. I will replace the old one with a new one and report back.

I watched the service station put a fuel guage on the rail, and read 48PSI. This was at idle under no load, so this reading could mean very little. I will replace the fuel filter, if that does not make an obvious change, I will contemplate getting out the stop watch and the bucket....

Thanks,
Martin

 

The fuel pressure of 48 psi at idle is a little high. Normally at idle with the vacuum line connected it will be at 38 psi or so. With the vacuum line disconnected it should be between 43 & 47 psi.

As for the no power, check the SA timing. Someplace along the way it could have been set far retarded. Which will kill power. Needs to be at 6 deg BTDC with the EST (bypass) connector open.

RBob.

 

Timing was the next thing I was going to suggest also, since the cat is brand new.

 

Thanks Pat, hopefully I'll be able to get more into the car this weekend or next. I will update the thread as I go.

Thanks,
Martin

 

Hey Martin, I just thought of something else. If the timing checks out ok with the computer disconnected, try hooking the esc wire back up and see where the timing is at with the esc funtioning. If the computer is retarding the timing, you'll want to look into the esc/knock sensor system. If you have a faulty esc or knock sensor, the ecm will retard the timing automatically. The Chilton's manual for our cars has a step by step troubleshooting procedure for the knock sensor/esc circuit. If you're not getting any spark advance, your motor will run like a sluggish dog.

 

I changed the fuel filter, car is still vibrating in gear at idle, and just feels like it wants to stall. I did not check the timing, but the car is claiming (using an autoxray) to have 0degree knock retard, and a knock sen of 4 (I'm assuming 4 is 4 of 255 so it is very low).

When in neutral/park the car is idiling at 1100 RPMs (with autoxray attached), SA of 27.3deg, desired idle of 650RPM (thats a big difference from 1100?), inj pulse of 1.5ms, MAF reading of 16 gr/sec, engine load of 68, IAC of 157, and the air diverter valve is on.

In gear the car reads 580 RPMs, SA of 17deg, desired idle of 587, pulse width of 2.8-3.1ms, MAF reading of 13gr/sec, eng load of 100-110, IAC of 159, and the air diverter valve is on.

Some more vital information about the car that is not listed above, is that it has underdrive pullies and a hypertech chip from the previous owner. I noticed that the battery voltage dropped when it was in gear, probably from the combination of high current alternator (140A) and the low RPMs. I did figure out that I had to switch the alternator pulley to an 'overdrive' and that was done.

My next step is to draw down the old gas in the car now (replace with high octane fresh stuff) and I'm going to go around and clean connectors/tighten grounds since it has been sitting. I will also try to scare up a timing light.

Do the autoxray values stand out to anyone? I don't really see anything too strange. I do not know what the MAF sensor should be reading though. The TPS also was a little high (read 0.74V instead) but I'd say thats fine?

Thanks,
Martin

 

Heres a pic of the relays