WTF is going on? ok heres the deal? I borrow a brand new adjustable digital timing light...I check my timing with the EST still plugged and it reads 29* and I rev it to about 2000rpm and I shoot to over 40*..I then shut the car off and unplug the EST and crank it up and check timing again its stays the same but the car cuts off about 1min later....I crank it up again and the same thing...whats going on? why is the timing staying the same? whats wrong? If I leave it plugged and crank the car up and while running unplug the EST the car cuts off.

Is there a way I can set timing with the EST plugged? with the adjustable timing light it has switches on it that allows me to add or take away timing and the mark on the balancer moves....for instance I can add about 22* and the mark on the balancer goes to about 6* and so on...I really didnt pay attention to what was the reading I was just playing with the buttons...also I undid the bolt on the DIZZY and turn it while running and my eyes starting burning from all the fuel....so I just set it back to 29* ...WTF!!

if you need to know I have ALL MSD stuff.....coil, dizzy, ignition box and wires and a brand new ATI 6.25 balancer that I bought from soneone on this site.
and yes as far as I know I set TDC correct ..I had it dot to dot which would have been firing on 6 and I then rotated so they were both at 12 and that suppose to make it firing on #1..I think...I had a thread on that a while back when I was doing that..I cant really remember what I did... and dropped the dizzy pointing to the number 1 on my dizzy cap and also the number 1 cylinder.

the car cranks right up but I trying to fight a HOT condition and NO START when HOT and wanting to make sure my timing is correct.


anyone know whats going on?

is there a way to set timing with the light that I have while leaving the EST plugged? if so what do I need to set it at and with what advance built into the timing?

I dont know if im making sense ...ask if you need to know something

thanks!

this is BS!!!!!!

 

No, you can't set the timing with the EST wire connected.

 

WHY?....

well then what the hell is going on? and what do I do?

 

Im not much help, but

Ive always wondered why people stress out about
what degree of timing they run on aftermarket cammed
small block chevy's.

As I understand it, stock base timing should be ignored
and it should be done by sound/feel and observation..

I run all my motors fully advanced..just before it
pings, then I would retard the timing slightly until
there is no premature detonation, this ensures the
best performance possible in my opinion, for any given
application.. until at least you have computer software
to actually know.

Again, Im sure using a timing light and using stock
timing would run the motor. But I completely ignore
so, If I have a different profile cam.

I have yet to put a light on the engine I just built.

I just put the crank at compression TDC, rotor
pointed to #1 cylinder, ran wires.. got the motor
to fire (advance/retard to idle) and its basically
done at that point.

I did remove the EST wire when doing so, the
car idles and run fine at WOT with no pinging or bogging!

If the engine was stock however, I would have followed
the procedures necessary for a correct operation.

I could be completely wrong..
but Ive yet to have a problem

 

Because you have no idea how much advance the computer is adding.

If you can, start it with the EST wire connected, then disconnect it and check the timing before it shuts off.

 

why am I having such a screwed up time with this? this aint normal!.

what do you mean start it with the EST plugged? and then pull it? while still running? the car instantly cuts off...

 

I read it wrong. So it'll run for a minute if you start it with the EST unplugged?

 

it's not hard to loosen the dizzy, start the motor with the wire unplugged and set initial timing. Depending on your advance curve in the computer would depict your initial timing. I like 22-24 initial and 32-38 total depending on the motor and how it reacts at the track. So if the computer adds 10 degrees at idle then set it at 12 etc etc.

 

yeah it will stay running for about a min or less with the EST unplugged....now when I got to attempt to set timing...if I get anywhere close to to 10* the mark on the balancer freaks out and the car cuts off...

so what are you saying? set it with the EST unplugged and set it for 12*?

I guess I should call LSRacing ...whom did the chip and ask him how much timing he gave it?

I dont have a clue what the hell to do..

when I had my 305 it was so simple to set timing and where ever I wanted..

why would this new motor be acting like this?

 

Mine is set 15' initial (engine barely able to stay running) and idles best at 26'-28' with the vacuum advanced plugged in, and it's still not too early. But bear in mind my cam has a 108' LSA and 224@.050.
If I set my timing to stock it wouldn't even run at idle.
Unless the guy that programmed your chip can tell you where the base timing needs to be, you're just going to have to experiment.

 

No start when hot eh....

Timing feaking out when controlled soley by the ICM....


Have you tried swapping out a a different ICM?

 

Ok..if I unplug the EST and try to set timing, I can get it to 12* before it cuts off..but when I connect the EST and check the timing it still says 12* and runs like crap!

Now, if I check timing with the EST connected and raise the timing to say about 29* and key in 22* advance on the gun the timing mark on the balancer moves to 6*.....

what is going on? why cant I set timing the crrect way with the EST unplugged?

could my dizzy be screwed up? its brand new?

what does initial timing mean?

when I talked to the guy before he did my chip..he told me to set the timing to 6* but I cant remember if he also told me that I could actually set it where I want inorder for it to run right. ..

 

are you using the gun correctly?

IIRC, you key back on the gun and align the zero mark.

if you want 10 degrees, set the gun for 10 and align the zero mark on the balancer. It sounds like you are going too far back?

 

im at a stand still....I dont know what the **** im doing!.


do yu know what type of gun im using? its a digital that shows tach reading on one side of the display and on the other its shows advance with up/down arrow buttons. I can set it on ZERO and use it like a regular gun.


Man I just want to take my car somewhere and let them get it right..Im tired of messin with it!...but I dont know of anywhere around here to take it....plus Im scared they will mess it up worse...ya know?

I let the car run for like 15mins and now I cant start it back up

 

Silly question, but you've got the light on the #1 wire, not the #2?

 

check your spark now.. If it's not sparking it may be the ICM that is toasted. They usually work alright when cold then fail when they get hot. If you have a new motor with a new distributor, they may have put the ICM in without putting in dielectric grease. If that happens, the ICM overheats and fails.


Although, for a new motor, that is probably not the case.

 

LOL..yeah its on #1

what the heck is ICM?

I did the motor from the shortblock up!

 

Ignition Control Module.

It controls the electronic spark. If it is bad, the computer doesnt get a rpm signal and the plug wont fire.


It is the little black module on the distributor.

 

what size cam? it'll want more than 10 degrees initial if it's a bigger than stock cam. What you need to know is where the timing curve is set off the chip. WITH the wire connected a bigger cam would want 22-24 at idle which I already stated. IF your chip adds 10 degrees timing at idle then set it to 12 degrees then shut the car off immediately. Tighten the dizzy and plug back in the wire. The chip will allow timing to be in the 22/24 range at idle since it has advance built in at idle. You can't expect to drive the car unhooked. Just get it to 12 or so at idle and plug in the wire. This is why people who don't have details about the chip that was burned should not mess with things and have a shop set up their motor. Get a list of the settings and try to set it up yourself or go pay a shop a few hundred to dyno tune it and have it done the right way.

 

my cam is 226/232 531/537@50 with a 113.5 LSA

I can call the guy who did my chip...what do I need to ask him? can I ask him to send me a file of some type? if so, what?

How can I tell if my ICM is bad? cause when I go to set the timing with the EST unplugged the car dies!..why? and when I give it some gas and get anywhere close to 10* or lower it cuts off...why? I cant get anywhere close to that.

I did set it at 12* and when I plugged it back in and checked timing...it was still at 12* plugging it back in didnt do anything.....I need to know whats going on!

 

ask him for your timing curves based off RPM. the engine is not going to want to run anywhere near 10 degrees with that cam. You would want more timing for sure. If plugging it back in at idle does not add timing then rev the motor to 3500 rpm with it plugged in and set total timing to 34 degrees until you get back with the tuner on your timing curves. This should be close enough for now to have it run. If not then continue to add timing until the motor pings then back it off some. Or just wait on the curve and post back.

 

ok well I emailed him and will call him tomorrow...In the email I asked him to send me the "timing curve based off RPM" thru-out the whole RPM range and also if he can send me a data sheet of everything he did to the chip..which I doubt he will do...ya know?

I should here from him tomorrow and will post it on here!

I cant do anything to the car cause its so late and I dont want to wake anyone cause Im doing all this with open headers!...LOL

 

i think you may want to rely more on your own feeling. seeing as to how your a pretty mechanically inclined guy...you can figure it out pretty quick.

put your base timing to a comfortable place. plug in the est, restart the car and go for a drive. if its running fine then put that base advance up 2*. do that until it detonates, then retard it 1* until detonation leaves.

the ultimate way is to go on a dyno, and advance it till you start to lose power, then retard it 1* until you find that peak torque number.

 

yeah but the motor is new with less than 25 miles on it..I dont want to go full throttle-ing it around ..specially with open headers!...that would mess the motor up wouldnt it? plus it would wake the dead!..LOL

 

Please don't keep f-ing around with the thing until you get it capped up,, or you'll be posting another WTF thread because of it.

Get it to crank and stay running by adjusting the idle screw,, then baby the car to the muffler shop. Take your timing light and tools to set the IAC (min idle speed) and TPS in their parking lot after the exhuast. You may have to set the timing and reset the idle and TPS a couple of times to get it all "dialed in" - any time you increase or decrease the timing,,, you need to reset the minimal idle speed (IAC) and subsequently the TPS,, but the first try in their parking lot should be good enough so you can baby it back to your place to "dial it in". Setting the timing to the tab is assuming that whoever built the engine set it to TDC and then aligned the timing tab to zero on the balancer. If it wasn't the timing light is of no good to you and you'll have to set the car to where it "likes" the timing. If you have trouble doing this,,, pay someone in your area to help you with it.

You'll need to ask the guy where he set the initial timing in the chip and what the total timing should be at idle and what total timing under WOT at 4800 rpm is with any power enrichment timing he may have added. If he says total timing should be 22 degrees at idle and he set base timing in the chip at 6 degrees,,, and it takes 12 degrees to keep your car running with a decent iac count,,,, then you'll be adding an extra 6 degrees of timing to the table,,, and the timing light will say 28 degrees at idle - same increase would go towards the total timing under WOT. Hopefully he set base timing to at least 10-degrees in the chip,, if it takes 12 to "run".

 

 

Something I havent seen mentioned yet. Not all adjustable timing lights will work with an msd ignition box. The light may not even be showing you the correct timing.

 

I ended up talking with Jamy from LSR...and he told me to change the ICM and see if that doesnt allow me to time the car.......and then I went to AZ and the said that it may be my ESC...

I took the car to its first carshow here in town...I babied it up there...ofcourse I havent full throttled the car yet...ive only been about half throttle.....I tell you what with open headers it sure attracted ALOT of attention but the cops didnt hassle me since it was a car show..I guess!

 

Ok heres the deal.....I dont have the money right now to go out and buy a new ICM and a new ESC......I will next week.

I have a leak on my front timing cover seal where the balancer slides in that I need to fix, luckly I have the comp 2 piece cover so it wont be that big a pain to change other than sealing the cover back on....

but anyways, I went ahead and removed all my plugs wires since I was using my old MSD's off my 305 that are still in good shape.I have brand new ones to put on..I also pulled all the plugs out and checked them and they all look great...nice tan color perfect from pictures Ive seen of good ones....I then bumped the motor over to get me on my TDC mark....I removed the DIZZY cover to check things out under there and see where my rotor button was pointing and it was toward the #1 on the cap...I have an old DIZZY cap that I have a hole cut out so I can place it on and see where things line up...I put that on and looked and the rotor button was NOT exactly pointing towards #1...it was like a 1/4 past towards #8...WILL THAT AFFECT ANYTHING?


LIke I said I need to remove my timing cover so I will be able to see if the dots are both on 12oclock which is suppose to be firing number 1.....

Yes I know what your thinking but when I lined them up while I was installing my cam I had everything DOT 2 DOT when degreeing the cam..I then rolled the motor over 1 complete turn til they were both on 12.....and the #1 piston was up and both valves down...that should be firing 1...from what some of you guys have told me on an other post I had.

Ok, now if everything is lined up under the timing cover that would mean either I didnt line the rotor up correctly or my timing jumped somehow? or my balancer tab was off...how or what do I check to ake sure I have everything right this time!.....I havnt pulled the DIZZY out yet.


would the rotor being where it is cause me not to be able to time the car?
you know the problems Im having....and when cold the car fires right up.

thanks!!!!

 

You should be in a good position to get the motor to fire.

It doesnt exactly line up with the #1 cylinder, it should
be in-between.

I remember I had my rotor pointing perfectly to the
#1 cylinder (I thought I was going to be perfect!)
but, Id have to advance the distributor so much
just to get any combustion, I knew I had to walk
the cam gear alittle more.

The motor will "fire" if your close, but again.. you
dont want to overly fiddle with the distributor if your
right on when you installed the distributor.

I usually can get 'em to fire the first time I drop the
the distributor in, then Ill adjust after I evaluate the
engine at idle/WOT condition.

 

dude!..I know your trying to help out....but Im not haveing a FIRING-UP problem......Ive been having a timing issue...with not being able to time my car.

So you saying that where my rotor button is located ...it doesnt exactly line up with the #1 pin on the CAP? if thats the case then I should be ok...I still have to remove my timing cover so I will see if the cam gears are where they are suppose to be.

 

I found this picture I took of the dizzy when I was first getting the rotor button in the right spot....its not there anymore.....its a 1/4 closer towards the number 8 pin......why would it move?

you can see when I lined it up the fist time..it was dead on it!!!

 

it shouldn't be at #1 it should be a little before it closer to the last cylinder. in fact it should be 12-20 degrees before hand based off the balancer to line up with #1 perfectly to fire. Until you get the base timing off the chip i really can't say much about it.

Edit: Just saw your pic and IIRC firing order it's 1 then 8 so I would say that is fine since if you rotate the motor to 20 degrees BTDC then the rotor should line up perfectly, nothing wrong with what you're describing since the motor fires the plug before it hits TDC to allow for the flame to build

 

base timing on the chip when I talked to Jamy from LSR ...he says 6*

 

and total added timing is....???

 

he wouldnt tell me or not that he wouldnt tell me but he didnt say...said something about 2D ...or somthing...I didnt know what he was talking about but he assured me the chip is fine..and I trust him..

what does base have to do with where you put the rotor button? I have always read and heard that you put it where I have it in the picture.

 

read the edit i put up on my post. Also without knowing how much total timing he's adding you can't figure out where to put your base timing. SO what I would do is hit the track and advance the timing 2 degrees at a time until the mph slows down then back it off 2 degrees and check your base then. This will be what the motor runs most efficiently on. Running too little timing won't hurt anything on the motor other than "maybe" foul out some plugs, but taking it to the track or driving it around with a datalogger/scanner looking for knock counts would be another choice.

 

Do you have a MSD 8366?

I cannot set the idle either the normal way with the 8366.
Why?- It has a built in rpm advance incase of EST failure. My idle speed is at 900rpm and when I try to set it to 6deg engine stalls and rev up then the rpm increases and the 8366 increases the Timing. I cannot for my life get a normal reading with the EST disconnected with the 8366.

Here is what I do, set the timing to say 30deg in My chip over the whole Curve then adjust the Distr until I get 30 at the crank with the timing light.

/N.

 

So apparently Im not he only one with this problem?


did you do all that with the EST plugged or not?



UPDATE!!!

I just got off the phone with MSD and this is a known problem with the GM distributor, stock or aftermarket.
Vick with MSD described my problem to the T!....with the oil pressure drop and timing gettting all wacked out!. He told me it was a problem with the postioning of the dizzy HOUSING...and to fix it...pull the dizzy out, hold the gear at the bottom ( I guess to keep it from moving and move the HOUSING 90* clockwise and drop it back in..lining up with #1 as normal...and that will fix my problem. Someone else who is more engine savy give the guys at MSD and talk to them to see what they say and post back here....see if you know what they are talking about?

he also told me that the Dizzy has a built-in advance incase of EST failure unpluging the EST is not failure...it is being bypassed...so the advance would not kick in

 

So its good to go? up and running?

If so, glad you figured it out..hopefully people with the
same problem in the future will see this post and give 'em
a heads-up.

 

No its not up and running......thats just what MSD told me to do..Im still in the process of fixing the leak...I wont know if what they said will work...til this weekend.

Why would moving the housing have anything to do with not timing corrrectly?

beats me!...but thats what MSD says.

 

Let me know how it goes.

Will remove my heads this weekend and thinking of putting in a GM dizzy insted...........

 

Updates?

 

This is a really dumb question... but all these figures for initial timing... are they after or before TDC? I have the Initial Spark Advance on my ECM set to 5.98*. Where should I set my initial timing? I have a Hypertech custom chip where the ISA is set to 8.09*, and the smallest value on the SA Table is 23*. If I'm two steps behind stupid on this please let me know. I've been messing with the car the whole weekend... and at least I got it to idle right... and not smoke like a Cheech and Chong movie (oy it was so rich!).

 

I still havent gotten the top end back together....I had to much going on...I changed the front timing cover seal...I had the balancer and the TDC mark and when I removed the cover...I was dead nuts on firing #1...both gears at 12....and when I looked at the rotor, it was just past the number1 pin on the cap..so when I put it back in I dropped it in so its right before the #1 pin on the cap...I was reading...that it really doesnt matter WHERE you drop the dizzy in as long as the rotor is pointing towards pin1 and then put the wires in the correct firing order....I just need to put the plenum back on and run the new plug wires...and then I'll fire it up and see if I can set timing.

I dont really know what MSD tell me to rotate the housing 90* clockwise...I just pulled it out cleaned it up and made sure there was die-electric under the ICM....and droped it back in where I wanted it. If I was to have pulled it out and rotated the housing...that would have put ICM connections pointing towards the drivers fender..and I like them pointing towards the rear. ...and come to think of it ..if I would have done that..wouldnt that have thrown the firing order WAY off?...the rotor doesnt move when you turn the housing. THen the rotor would have been pointing towards..?????? pin.


anyone wanna comment?

 

As many times as I've taken my Stealth Ram apart, the way a no BS GM / ASE certified mechanic showed me how to do it goes like this: Make sure you're timing gears are properly lined up. Put that together. Once your base intake is on, hold your distributor over the hole, and point it towards the #1 cylinder on the motor. Note the position of the drive gear at the bottom. With a long flat head screwdriver, rotate the oil pump driveshaft until it meets the bottom of the distributor. Drop the distributor (since you have the HSR like me, I usually like my ICM plugs to point towards the firewall). The rotor should point roughly in the direction of the #1 cylinder (left front of engine). Once everything is together, fire the car. You shouldn't have to mess with the distributor too much. Once the car fires and runs, let it get warm. Ground the A-B pins on the ALDL connector (paperclip trick), turn the key to ON for 30 seconds. Disconnect the timing connector on the Passenger Side of the engine bay. Start the car. With the A-B pins grounded, it puts the car in Diagnostic Mode and allows it to run well enough for you to adjust the timing. My 406 HSR did the same thing right after my conversion, I'd try to adjust timing and it would die shortly after. This trick worked for me, and it's how I do it. See if it works for you! Good Luck!

 

Hi guys, just a quick question. My HSR FI is controlled by a Commander 950 ECM, it also control the timing curve. The engine is 385cid, AFR 180cc, hydraulic roller 225@ 0.050”, dynamic compression at 8.48:1. The supplied Base Map ask for timing advance set to 23@ idle and 42@ max. Isn’t that a lot of advance? Have anyone of you experienced ignition detonation when loading supplied Base Map?

Cheers