IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

I have an 89 GTA. The L98 in it was busticated (broken) when I bought the car. It knocked and overheated. I pulled it, stripped all the stuff off it and bought a "Toughone" engine from Advance. When I got it home the castings numbers were as follows
14093638 block
14102193 heads
I know the block number is fine and the heads belong to a TBI motor.
And yes I am aware many think the 193's suck. My question is this:
The pad behind the driverside head says 5.7 and it has a vincode of '7'
I ran across several engine reman sites saying vincode '7' for our cars and knew it was wrong. But what car had a vincode 7 350 TBI motor? Trucks are 'K' from 87-95. I have been in touch with Advacne and they are going to help me get the right heads and cam, but if worst comes to worst, can I use this engine with my TPI setup and it run fine/pass emissions?
P.S. This had to be done on a budget so I couldn't afford the $1700-3000 people were asking for l98 crate motors or rebuilding mine with machine work.
The engine cost me $1080 which was all I had. TIA

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Do you mean 14093638 block?

It'll run and pass emissions. Power will be down.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Yes, 638 block. My bad. I guess if they can't do anything else I may get another cam for it. I did discover the Vin 7 blocks were for Caprice's
If it is a 9C1 Police Package the power is 200HP and 300lbft
I would still like the correct motor though.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Any body know if putting an LT4 cam in the LO5 would make decent numbers?

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

Stock LT4 camshaft will work and give you another 10-20 horsepower. LT4 hot cam has too much lift for stock heads and will require better valve springs and custom chip programming.
The difference between 2198 heads and 1083 heads is miniscule, about 5, maybe 10 horsepower. But if you asked and paid for 1083 heads and didnt get them, you have a valid complaint.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

If a small margin between heads, is it the cam that kills power? the regular
L05 VIN 7's only had 180hp and 300lbft of torque, I know that is with TBI, how much would TPI add to the numbers of a regular L05 or a 9C1 L05?

RPOL98

are you referring to the stock LT4 cam or the LT4 HOT cam?

if you're considering the LT4 HOT cam with the stock TPI setup (manifolds, ECM), I'm sure you will need a revised chip. the fuel map due to the differences in volumetric efficiences at various RPMs and vacuum settings is very different. I compared the two, beeg differences.

I'm using the LT4 HOT cam (1.5 roller rockers) with my '90 L98 TPI & factory ECM (custom chip).

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Nevermind, I am returning the motor. Recon screwed me and when I called they seemed to not give rats ... about it.

pentiuman

I bought a 91 GTA that had a bad 5.7 (350) L98 w/ Tuned Port Injection "TPI", and am currently in the middle of installing a rebuilt engine.
1. I too just bought a replacement motor from Advance Auto Parts (Recon). It was their standard (cheapest) version at $1,094.44 before tax. Came with block 14093638 (638), as it should. Estimate Printout says head castings were suppossed to be either 10110810, or 14102191. HOWEVER, my new heads are stamped 14102193. Anyone know if these are the right heads? Already turned in my old motor so can't look at what I had. Did Advance (Recon) sell me heads with less hp than factory, or that belong on a different motor?
2. The pad on the driverside rear block says 5.7LG, a few other numbers and has a big 3 stamped sideways.
3. Possible oil priming problem: Hope it's normal and unrelated. With motor still on stand, installed the oil pump and pickup that came with reman motor. Put in oil, took off valve covers, bought a new 3/8 (A/C powered) drill and an oil priming tool. Ran the priming tool clockwise for several minutes and only got slow oil flow in the left (driverside) head. No oil at all is coming out on the passenger side (right) head. Recon and Advance said run the priming tool longer -which I did, at intervals of 3, 5, 7, and then 17 minutes, but no difference. Since my pickup tube was somewhat loose (would twist but not come off), Advance said my oil pump pickup tube was likely installed wrong and drawing air. So, I replaced it. 2nd oil pump pickup fit tighter, but still no oil from any of the lifters on right head. Advance said I needed to turn the engine over 90 degrees by hand and try again. I did, but no oil on that side still! Talked to several people who are divided on whether a drill should be able to get enough oil pressure to oil both heads. Currently, Advance is checking with their higher ups to see if I should now turn the motor over with a starter (not start the engine, just turn it over to see if any oil will come out of the right head). I'm nervous cuz I'm no mechanic and don't want to ruin the engine and take the blame because some idiot at Advance advisd me wrong, or if Recon built the motor wrong (plugged oil gallery) and tries to blame me and void my warranty. Opinions? Thanks!

Toyota h8r

i would if it were me......if that motor only outs 200hp out.....thats sad as hell. Think about it, a 305 tpi has more hp!
a 305 tpi(215hp) vs 350 junker (200hp) WOW! sad think?

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

pentiuman

the 193 heads are the TBI swirlport heads people on this board say suck. Sounds as thought your block may be correct with correct cam if it has the '3' on it. I got my core back and it has a 3 on it. The new motor had a 7.
The block csting was correct for an L98, but since they reuse the cam that was in the core they receive, I knew it would be wrong. The heads on
my L98 are 14101083's Sounds like you ran into a similar problem I had. Do a search on 193 and see what turns up. That is what started my frustration
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one other thing, I watch horsepower alot and whenever I have seen them prime a motor they always use a drill so I don't think the drill is the issue, sounds like clogged oil galleys. Just my 2 cnts and I am just a bumpkin from TN.

jimdutro

iTrader: (1)

Make sure to stay on these guys and document everything that transpires between you and the techs. The primer tools are made to be used with a drill. What ever you do, don`t fire up the motor even if they tell you to.

pentiuman

83350Z - So, to clarify - you're saying they sold me the right block, but with the wrong (not the best for my particular setup) heads - they sold me 193 heads for a TBI setup, while mine is TPI, and I should've gotten heads marked 083? Is their casting numbers wrong on the printout I quote above then? If so, I'm pissed, because, for a slightly different reason, I specifically asked them to check to see if the heads were right, based on the "2BL" marking on the engine paperwork tag. (I was worried "2BL" stood for a 2 barrel carb, while they said it stood for 2 bolt main.)

Advance Auto is telling me that I've done everything right, and they're checking to see if I should turn the motor over with the starter, in order to get oil to come out of both sides. In fact, today I went to Recon's website, www.reconengines.com and in the "Tips" section, it says the same thing! I've still got the motor on a stand, and was able to install the flywheel and the starter, so it's not installed in my car yet. So, I may do that, but I'm not going to (install the motor) and start the motor until I see oil in both heads. I'm gonna record my tel. call with Advance tomorrow. Again, I'm getting mixed info on this issue from websites, mechanics, and friends, whether a drill can produce enough RPM to get oil fully cirulating. Of course, I'm worried that I have a plugged oil passage, and now that my heads aren't an exact match, I'm even less happy. Only thing though, my old motor had a cracked block, and they gave me the $375 core credit money back anyway, so I want to be careful about how much I complain.

FYI - Don't go to www.recon.com unless you're perverted or gay, cause that website is weird.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Yes, I am saying you have the incorrect heads. And yes they list the info incorrectly on the computer. I used to work at the Advance I bought the motor from and know the guys there. The problem lies with Recon's incorrect catalog. It sucks, and I was pissed too. I have a link in the Aftermarket vendor section that describes my conversations with Recon's "Customer Service".
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/afte...n-engines.html

They said their catalogs only show VIN 8 engines going into Corvettes. They actually argued with me over if I was giving them the correct Vin digit or not. I searched alot Sunday just to gain more info than I already knew. And I was ticked enough I took the motor back. I did some other investigating before I went wit hRecon and S&S engines site lists the same thing. But they sent me this.
Thank you for your response. We were not aware of the misprint of the vin-7 code. We are aware of the cylinder head casting used in the TPI vin-8 motor. We use either the 083 or 217 casting head in this application. The pistons and camshaft are also different for in the vin-8 engine.

S & S Engine Manufacturing Company
Local Phone: (509) 325-4558
Toll Free: (800) 942-7800
URL: http://www.rebuilt-auto-engines.com
___________________________________
Our engines built to LAST not just REPLACE!

To: sales@rebuiltautoengines.com

Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:06 PM

F-BIRD'88

Make your own oil priming tool from a old GM SBC distributor. Remove the gear. Grind off the all the teeth from the side of the gear so it does not enguage the camshaft. reinstall the gear. Weld a nut or nut and bolt to the top of the advance plate shaft on the top of the distributor.
The oil gallery that runs thu all the tappet bores of one side of the block will leak and not move any oil along it if the distributor is not installed in the motor.
No oil will get to one lifter bank unless the distributor housing ( or something exactly the same shape and size) is in the hole .

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Pentiuman. If you have to have this motor at least check the cam part number to make sure it is an L98 cam. The part number is 10111773 per a tech article on this forum.
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You can also compare casting numebrs on www.Mortec.com

Kevin91Z

iTrader: (1)

That was your first mistake, buying the cheapest thing. I'm surprised you even got a roller block for that price. Engines of that type are supposed to be for beaters and daily drivers. They are not designed for high performance cars.

Are you turning the engine 90 degrees every few minutes? The oil passages do not all line up at once. You have to rotate the engine and continue priming it to make sure the oil gets into every passage. You dont have to use the starter. Install a couple bolts into the front balancer, and use a breaker bar to turn it.

pentiuman

83350Z - I'm still confused about your talk of the VIN. As you may know, the Vehicle Identification Number on my actual title has an "8" in the eighth digit, and my factory 91 Pontiac Firebird Service Manual states that indicates L98, V8, TPI, 5.7. Guess then, I'm confused about the pad behind the driverside head - why "3" stamped there on my replacement engine is the correct block for my car. (Shouldn't it be an "8"?)

In my case, even with the wrong heads, if I can get oil to flow in my right (passenger side) head, I may just keep the engine. Again, my old engine was obviously cracked, and Advance or Recon could have refused to return my core $. Also, although I have learned a lot, and have pride in what I've done, I'm starting to get tired of this project. For the last 3 days, I have been degreasing the engine bay, removing rust and paint with a wire wheel drill attachment, and getting ready to paint under the hood. I've used a pressure washer and have gone through several different products and tools, including a dremel tool, to get everything clean and sanded. Boy, it sure does look ugly underneath a car. - Guess it's more function than looks.

Also, with my current, LIMITED understanding and light reading on the 193 versus 083 heads. If performance is your highest interest, the 083 head may be better. But for lower end torque, or better fuel performance, the 193 head may be better. Also, at least a couple people are saying that the difference is really with TBI vs. TPI, and not the heads at all. Others say the 193 have almost as good intake numbers, and better exhaust, so if you're going to port your heads, you want the 193. In contrast, others think the 193 are junk, without specifying exactly why they believe that. Free advice is sometimes worth no more than it cost. Other times, it's priceless. The trick is distinguishing between the two.

I don't know much about engines, and didn't plan on modifying the engine - I'm just pissed because I wanted an exact replacement, and trusted that was what I was getting. I've been real patient with Advance and some of the bad advice some there have given me. I'm sure it's frustrating for some Advance employees for every other customer to ask them a repair question - but in my case, I bought one of the biggest "parts" they sell - a long block, and expect them to be able to handle oil priming questions. Some who work there can't spell engine.

THANKS EVERYONE!

Kevin91Z - I did turn the motor over on two occassions, 90 degrees each time, with a breaker bar on the harmonic balancer. Still no oil on the passenger side.

F-bird'88 - You're the first person I've heard to say that about the oil gallery - that a distributor (or something like it) is needed for oil to flow to the other side. I had planned on installing my distributor before turning the motor over with the starter - so if you're right, and I then get oil, that would make sense. Thanks for the advice - I knew that I didn't NEED a priming tool, and could make my own, - many suggested altering a screwdriver, but I thought a priming tool would be the best. But if you're right, then a modified distributor would actually be best, for the reasons you give. Good to know for the next time.

IROCmenace

iTrader: (1)

Yes I mean the 8 th digit in the VIN number on the car. F and Y bodies were the only ones to get an L98.
The 3 on the block, I think, is where the block was made/assembled. GM had alot of engine plants back then, including one in Van Nuys. All the L98 motors I have seen have had a 3 there. The block I received had a 7 there.
Since they reman the core engine they receive, meaning reuse most the hard parts, including cam, that would have meant I had the wrong cam and the wrong heads. I paid for a replacement L98, not a Caprice, truck or Van motor.
Granted it was cheap. But I took a loan to buy the engine.
I had a TBI Formula, and I enjoy driving my Dad's TBI truck, but people are not kidding when they say the cam/head package in a TBI motor gives up after 4000-4500.
I didn't want 193 heads, I just wanted what I was giving them.
When I talked to the guy at Recon, he didn't even know what casting the 083 head went on.
Trust me, I was tempted to just put the thing in the car and drive as I need a daily bad right now, but Recon wouldn't even work with me, If they would have even let me keep my old heads and cam and swap them for the heads and cam on the new motor, that would have been fine with me, but they didn't even offer any assistance at all. I received a military discount and that is why my engine was a little cheaper than yours, but $1080 isn't the kind of mony anyone just has lying around, especially with a wife and little girl. The fact they wouldn't work with me at all on the front end told me if I had a problem with this motor later on they would be just as NOT helpful.
I read the same on the heads and 200 hp and 300lbft were good enough numbers for me. But the wrong engine and then the utter disregard Recon had in trying to help me lead me to just returning the engine.

Azrael91966669

autozone and napa will only sell you tbi versions of these engines

napa will sell you a l05 even if your asking for an alloy headed l98

but regardless the caprice l05 and the l98 are the same for shortblocks only differance is cam

l05 came in 2 versions ho and low output
low output was in trucks as they had non roller cams
hi output was in the 9c1 police cars same cam as the l98 but used tbi heads to get the much heavier car moveing faster more lowend power below 2500 the tbi heads boost torque
where as the camaro gains power around 2500 and up why so many people put 2000-2500 rpm stalls

as long as its set up with the roller cam it should have the l98 cam as all 9c1 police cars had the l98 cam opposed to the 350 trucks haveing a flat tappet version of the lo3 peanut cam

in all honestly toss an lt-4 cam in and some lt-4 springs and roller rockers on it and you have a nice screamer
even if you leave it as it came with tpi on top it will make the same hp as tpi l98s with a very nice boost in torque
and you will learn whats nice about the tbi heads even better off the line power just the tbi heads fade out right around the time tpi looses power so it works out as both parts are about done makeing there best power at the same times unlike the stock tpi heads that can keep flowing above 4500 well

kdrolt

3+ versions

non-police 180 fwhp in Caprice (1989-1993)/Roadmaster(1991-1993)/Olds Custom Cruiser(1991-1992) and the 1993 Cad Fleetwood; uses peanut roller cam from LO3

police 190, 195 or 205 fwhp in the Caprice (1989-1993); uses 773 roller cam from L98

trucks & vans (1988? - 1995), fwhp from 190 to 210; uses flat tappet cam (pn?)

Technically the truck LO5s came in different flavors (heads could be 191, 193 or 810 castings), with slightly different exhausts and certainly with slow vs fast ECMs. That's why I said that there were 3+ versions of the LO5: two in fullsize cars, and 1+ in the trucks and vans.

Not correct. The base 9C1 copcar engine was the 305. The optional engine was the 350. So the the 305 copcar got the peanut cam; the 350 copcar got the 773 cam.

Not really true. They both fade (power becomes constant) above 4000+ rpm.... but the stock TPI heads don't keep flowing above 4500 rpm. The flow data on the stock heads doesn't support that statement --- they flow essentially no different than the TBI heads. The power limiter at higher rpm in the TBI engines is the exhaust and cam; in TPI engines the limiter is the exhaust + TPI.

Azrael91966669

well being that he knows its not a 305 and and has a roller cam for the most

as long as its set up with the roller cam it should have the l98 cam as all 9c1 police cars had the l98 cam

"Not correct. The base 9C1 copcar engine was the 305. The optional engine was the 350. So the the 305 copcar got the peanut cam; the 350 copcar got the 773 cam. "
we know where dealing with a 350 so whats the point of bringing this up
i know 305s in all caprices where the same lo3 in our cars
the topic has only been based on 350
only police versions of the 350 came with the l98 cam
that is what i said i dont remember mentioning roadmaster or stock off the sales floor street car i was only dicussing 9c1 caprice with the lo5 engine
and also was mainly meaning the caprice before 92 but 92 up till the lt1 was tossed in for most everything was the same but you could then get a non police versions with a more mild 350