So ive had my bothers 85 camaro sitting for 2 years, and its time to get it going. It has a 350 with CC carb and Dizzy, 700r4 tranny STOCK convertor and 323 open rear. Exhaust is Edelbrock TES headers into a cat and 3" flowmaster.

So im picking up a set of 305 heads #416 heads porting them, they have 1.94i/1.5e installed and comp springs & retainers. I am in need of cam. I want to select a cam that will give me the FASTEST 1/4mi I can with the stock convertor. The car is not a daily driver, but I dont want it to be a dog off the line and overcammed.

Trying to get a summit cam and lifter kit, so please start there or share experience on quality with them.

The CC stuff is staying for now because of funds.


Thanks.

 

I've done a very similar build, an '84 Camaro with a CC-carb 350, stock converter, 700R-4, 3.42:1 open, and 235/60R15s. I tried the Summit K1102, and it was down on low-end torque, I couldn't even spin a tire, and the computer really didn't like it. Watching my tach, I determined my converter was stalling to 1500 rpm. And that cam is really mild: 204/214 at .050" with a 112 lobe sep and .420/.442 lift. For your combo what you gain in compression you lose in rear gearing. Mine felt great from 2000 rpm up.

 

Summit cams have ramp rates that are older than dirt. Extremely slow ramp rates. Seen them used, then more often than not swapped for newer lobe grinds.

I've built a LG4 (using mildly worked 416s) using a Comp Cams XE256 and it drove great on a stock stall.

 

Ramp rates are NOT the issue here. The problem is trying to run a cammed 350 on an LG4 calibration with a stock converter. There's nothing wrong with using a Summit cam, I've had plenty of successes with them and no failures, and don't forget I've been a professional automotive machinist since 2000. The answer to what the OP actually asked is that the K1102 doesn't work well, so the K1103 certainly won't work. And the K1101 is not far from an exact replacement for a 350. The K1101 specs at 194/204-112, .398/.420", ground 5 degrees advancedwhile all standard, non-LT1, non-L82 350s from '67 to '86 used the '929 cam, which specs at 195/202-112, .390/.410" ground 4 degrees advanced.

 

I wasn't saying they're bad. I'm saying there's better. He said he wants a cam that works well. I'm saying what works well. And I would hardly call the cam specs in question "cammed." With proper carb tuning, they work just fine. We do these on a daily basis in the Montes, Buicks, etc.

I'm sure plenty have had success with Summit cams. Don't see how you being a machinist for x amount of years has any relevance. If this is about ego/who's smarter, I could care less. I build motors for a living, so what?

 

oh great, another pissing contest. First, you must not be on my level, or you would know that machinists often get stuck picking cams for customers, and if we choose wrong, we end up not only eating the cost of changing the cam, but we get our reputations tarnished. Second, the OP did not ask for a debate of Summit cams versus COMP cams, everyone can see COMPs are better, the OP asked about Summit's cams only. Your XE256 in an LG4 is irrelevant, my combo is far closer a match to the OP's, and the results I described were the results AFTER tuning the carb. Lastly, at least I'm not afraid to tell my qualifications, as most people are more likely to believe someone with qualifications and something to lose, which in my case is my rep. I've got that, plus a more similar combo, and I addressed the OP's concerns exactly. What have you done? Not answered what the OP asked, and gotten a true professional all riled up. Good job.

 

I was saying there's faster. He said he wanted the fastest. There might even be better. I am merely stating that why use old lobe technology, when better is available.

I'm not here to start a pissing match. If you get all riled up over a single post, sorry, there's bigger things in life.

 

I am actually leaning toward the k1103. I have heard of people running more agressive cams on the CC setup.

Atilla: Could your lack of torque with the k1102 have been due to your low compression stock 350 heads?

 

I had that same cam, well Federal Mogul CS1014-R in my otherwise stock 305 CCC Q-Jet fed Fullsize van (Dough Thorley Tri-Y headers and exhaust). 305/700r4/3.08s and it had P275/60/R15 tires. It would spin BOTH tires through 20-30 mph.

I dyno'd it on the stock programming and L69 chip. Its sad that the Van tuning was hotter than the Monte SS L69s.

As far as running the 305 CCC Q-Jet setup on a cammed 350, I did that as well. LT4 (203/208 @ .050) roller cam in a 350 with Vortec heads, ran GREAT.

 

I sutffed an XE262 12-262-4. Specs are 218/244 @.050" .464/.470 & 114 overlap. I love the cam, it now pulls well beyond 4000 which the goodwrench wouldn't do before. I lost some low end tq, but made up for it with 3.73s and a manual trans. To do it again I'd go XE256.

You gotta build the car as a combo to work right, either replace the gears and converter or get something with low end tq.

 

I would recomend that you not run 305 heads on a 350. They will run out of wind at 4500 RPM. Vortec heads are the ticket right now. I'm running the same cam as the k1103 in my 350 runs great made 375 hp 420 ft lbs of tq. That is with a Holley. I remember reading several years ago GM sold a 350 upgrade crate engine for CC carb.F bodys that came with differant secondary metering rods and hanger.

 

I have upgraded the meatering rods and hanger, so I should be set. The 305 heads actually run great above 4500 when ported right. I run a set on my 305 '92 camaro with a LT4 hot cam that goes 13.5 on all-season tires, and it pulls easily up to 6000rpm. These heads i am using for the 350 even have 1.94 intakes, so should flow even better!

Fast355: will the car have still have adequate low-end torque on stock convertor and k1103? You have decent experience with the ported 305 heads on 350s. Also, do you know if using a lever style spring compressor can cause the retainers to scrape into the top of valve stem? I think mine did or the locks!!!!

 

Well the heads and kk1103 cam are installed and the car is running. Have the base timing set to 10* with the esc unplugged, and with 93 Octane its not pinigng.

A few problems:
1. The car does not have enough torque to break the tires loose mashing from standstill.
2. The car rips through high rpms and exceeds safe rpms and still doesnt shift. (stock bottom end, so would like to shift at 5800 ish). I need to verify stock tach...
3. Thinking Carb needs tuning (what to do on CC carb to correct torque issue??)

 

bump for some carb or timing tuning help to regain some power....

 

Is your car bogging? You might try the carb board there are some very knowledgeable guys over there. I usually check the plugs when its not running right.

 

I will try the carb boards in a little bit. I thought I'd try to see if others with a stock convertor had no low-end torque with a 214/224 duration camshaft.

How can I check if my valves are two tight and being held open? Vaccuum gauge (what would I look for there)? Also, what vaccuum should a CCC 350 with a cam of this size pull at idle? I have the idle set to 950-1000rpms, is that too high?

 

Now you need a much looser torque converter and a 3.73:1 axle. And by the way, about the "no low-end torque", I told you so!!!!!!!!! :-)

 

I know a TC stalled higher would help, but Id rather find a middle ground by tuning the car to gain some torque back. Any suggestions?

 

You degree the cam?

 

No it is installed dot-to-dot, which I think is called 'straight up.'

 

dot to dot, with a cam ground with 5 degrees of advance, such as yours is, should give you a 107 degree intake centerline, if you used a Cloyes chain instead of a chinese chain. But even the cloyes chain will stretch a bit during the first few several miles, so figure 108 degrees. Still too much cam for the converter you have.

 

1.) Even with the stock gearing and converter a 350 with that small of a cam should spin the tires with ease. My 204/214 cam in a 305 with the stock 1,600 rpm converter and 3.08s in a van could spin both P275-60-R15s.

2.) Sounds like something is not right with the transmission. Check the fluid level and TV cable adjustment. This could be hurting your break-away torque as well.

3.) The timing advance curve is very weak on the CCC Q-Jet ecm to work with the stock cam. You need a prom that has more advance in the lower rpm range at heavy load. An L69 or ZZ4 Prom would help with this. The primary jets are too lean for a stock 305, much less a 350 with some parts. Some Caprices, Vans, Suburbans, and Trucks had the CCC Q-Jet on a 350. You can pillage the jets out of one. It would also be helpful to make sure the secondary air valve is set for 7/8 to 1 turn of windup. This will help delay the secondaries and build torque.

 

Update:

A) I have set the timing with ESC disabled to 15*. This was the point at which my vaccuum reading was highest. Is this too high if it does not ping? (I have tried 0* - 15*) I used the vaccuum gauge due to figuring my timing tab is off.

B) TPS reading is 1.58 at idle and 4.2 at WOT. Can this cause poor low-end power? Replacement seems easy, where can you find a new air horn gasket?

c) Dwell is set to 30* using the IAB with the timing advance described above.

d) How can the TV setting affect break-away torque? I wish the thing would downshift sooner; pedal has to be pretty much floored to get it to kickdown from OD or 3rd.

 

Timing at 15 with ESC disconnected? That's really high. Are you checking for max vacuum after reconnecting the ESC? The ECM is going to add timing to base at idle once it's reconnected. Try it back at 5 disconnected then put the timing light on it and verify the ECM is running it around 20+ at idle and it's advancing correctly. Your KS could be pulling timing out.

TPS is high at 1.5, should be around 0.40. Have you tried to adjust the TPS with the set screw near the booster pump lever? You'll have to remove the tamper proof cap. You can use an appropriately sized roll pin lightly tapped over the set screw to turn it back if you don't have the appropriate tool. Don't adjust this however until you're certain you have the timing right and the idle speed set.

Does the dwell vary when you check it? Does it increase (lean the mixture) when you choke the airhorn with a rag? If the needle doesn't bounce around a little while the engine idles as it re-writes per O2 readings, it's not in closed loop.

TV setting shouldn't affect how the transmission reacts while in first, it will, however, affect shift points which could be an issue for you.

My experience with the XE 256 in an otherwise stock (except exhaust) 305 and later in a mild 350 was positive. Both had stock converters. My experience with stock converters ends there, though.

Start with your timing. If the base is set too high your KS could be pulling it back out. An 85 should have the KS.

 

I got to 15* with ESC disable through ALDL, but turning distrib with it hooked up and vacuum gauge attached. This was where highest vacuum was recorded.

TPS will not adjust lower, I have tried screw already. I was only able to increase the upper range to 4.2v.

Dwell does vary and between 27-35*.

My timing with ESC hooked up at idle is like 40*+ (but maybe my tab is off). Should the highest vaccum method work?

 

Don't worry about highest vacuum yet. Try setting your base near 5. When the ESC is re-connected the ECM will add more to it. 40 is way too high at idle.

Your timing tab COULD be off but try backing your base down, it's easiest to try that first than to TDC #1 to check your tab.

Replace your TPS too. If it's reading too high at idle the ECM may be adding more than the normal amount of timing at idle. At 1.5 the ECM essentially thinks the motor's at part throttle/cruise-seeing a low vacuum reading and part way open throttle.

 

I'll back down the base timing to 5*. And see where that gets me with electronic at idle. I still think it will be above 30*, again maybe because of the TPS.

I'll replace TPS, but where the hell do I get an airhorn gasket??

With the base set at less than 10*, I am in the "red" zone for "late ignition timing" on my vaccum gauge at idle. This is probably less than 13"hg...

 

Air horn gasket may be available separately at the parts store. I know it's included in any rebuild kit but have never tried to purchase one separately. You may even be able to re-use your existing
Don't worry about vacuum readings when setting base timing. With ESC disconnected and timing at 0-5 the engine is supposed to run like crap. Reconnect the ESC and the ECM will add the additional timing it needs, idle speed will increase and it will run smoother.

 

The stock specification was 4* (auto) and 8*(manual) respectively for my 1983 G20 with the CCC setup.

 

I replaced the TPS and set it close to the voltage range in the manual. Car stilld doesnt spin tires.....

1. Can the valves be too tight causing lack of compressiona and power? How could I tell this?
2. Should I reset my TV calbe on the tranny? I know it is fully extended at WOT, but maybe it is pulled all the way out too soon.
3. Is there a way to fool the Knock sensor with a resistor to test whether its pulling timing and killing power?

I do notive a slight bog or "hiccup" after the 1-2 shift at close to WOT, but its not slippage in the tranny.

 

1) Yes they could be set too tight, but won't happen by itself, someone would have had to dicker with them. To check, pull the valve cover and with the engine running, back each one off til it starts clacking then tighten 1/2 to 3/4 turn.

2) The TV cable shouldn't be pulled all the way out too soon if you've got the correct, stock cable bracket. Unless the cable itself is bad, due to its ratcheting feature, mis-adjustment may only have it not pulled out far enough-too much slack. I'm not a tranny guy, but I've been told by some that were that tight to slight slack (<1/8") in the cable at WOT is OK.

3) You can ground the KS lead thru a 3.3K (if memory serves correctly) to fool it. With the ccc set ups you shouldn't really need to though. Just disconnect it. The KS self test began with the TBIs. I've verified this with my '87.

This is after setting base timing lower, right?

 

Reviving this thread 2 years later... Car hasnt been on the road since, and the CCC carb is not functioning correctly, but i beleive much of my problem is the CC distributer with my camshaft. Anyways, I am swapping in a vacuum advance HEI and a standard carb. I found a good deal on a basically new edelbrock 1413 (800 CFM) carb, but I wasnt sure if it would be too much carb (although I swear i read that the engine will only use the CFM it needs and you cant put on too big of a carb). Right now, I just want something that will work and be easy to dial in.

 

You'd be wiser to repair the Q-Jet, than to hack some inferior garbage on there that doesn't fit. (look at the fuel line for example, and the carb base flange)

Keep in mind also that you'll have to change out the dist as well, and do away with the computer, if you do that; which then also means that you have to do something to retrofit a non-electronic control for the lockup.

Altogether, the beginning of a slippery slope downhill from a potentially nice and reliable car, toward one of those hilljack pieces of crap typical of those that give these cars a bad reputation in the eye of the general public.

In what way is it "not functioning correctly"?

Now that some of the people who gave you that "advice" a couple of years ago have maybe mercifully left this site (Atilla and Fastxxx in particular), you can return to a more sensible approach.

"Spin tires" is meaningless.

What cam ended up in it? The Summit cams are long since past any possibility of winning any kind of race; they're about a 40-yr-old design. I hope you didn't make that mistake. The Comp XE series, either the 256 or 262, are about perfect for your setup.

The BEST thing you can do, other than to get the engine to run right by repairing it — NOT necessarily modifying it — would be converter and gears, both of which are designed to let the engine get up off idle to where it can make some power. That's the problem with "spin the tires" as your "measure" of performance: to get the engine to make enough torque at a low enough RPM to do that, you lose so much upper RPM power, that the car becomes like a stock LG4; sure you can spin the tires at will from a stop, but you can't pass a semi on a 2-lane road at 55 mph because the motor doesn't have enough RPM capability. Pretty embarrassing.

As far as the TPS, about 99.99% of the time, if its voltage doesn't go high enough, it's because the throttle isn't opening all the way. The other .01% of the time, it's because the throttle isn't reaching full open. I'll leave it to you to figure out what you need to look at.

Set your ignition timing to about 4° - 6° advanced from whatever the factory spec is, with the big flat 4-pin connector that comes out of the bottom of the dist dosconnected. It should go to around 25° advanced at idle when you plug it back in.

For your TV cable, go here www.tvmadeez.com and read their "TV 101" article. Don't bother trying to "adjust" it until you understand what it's for, what it does and how it works, you'll just end up having to go back and re-do it.

 

Well the unfortunate news is that the k103 summit cam is in there. The base timing is set to 6* right now. The car either doesnt stay running at idle, or it idles way too high. I had the airhorn off to replace the TPS and it hasnt worked well since then. I messed too much with the fast idle setting, and I have no clue how to adjust the choke, or whether it is even mechanically together as it should be since pulling the airhorn.

I wanted to swap to vac adv and carb because i need to have the car running well without spending a ton of time messing with the CCC qjet which intimidates me. I have a holley and vac adv on my other camaro and it drives perfectly for the last 5 years, no retune, nothing. Ran a 13.5 on regular street kumhos the only time at the track, and it has a 305 in it.

The electronic advance at idle even after the base at 6* is high, but I will have to check to see if its near 25*.

I'm worried that the dizzy is pulling timing now, which is part of my lack of power issue. I dont want to mess with PROMs, etc.

One other note: the car doesnt have any of these problems when the esc is disabled with a paper clip. Idles steady and smooth, doesnt stall out or wander like it does when the esc is not disableed.

 

Just for the record - I have run the K1103 (or the gmpp version of it, same thing), and the XE262 back to back, when the first cam wiped out. Nothing else changed - 350 with crap 624's, 7004r4, 2.77's, no headers - the difference was night and day, far more bottom end AND top end.

From memory, the K1103 has about 70 degrees overlap, which I understand would play havoc with the ECM.

 

TPS reading low can be caused by an old TPS unit that has become gunked up with varnish. The plunger will stick and the whole unit will sink into the well somewhat as it's depressed. I've fixed this in the past with a good cleaning and a second spring under the TPS for good measure. May have been your problem with the old unit.

When the ESC is disabled the timing jumps up a good bit.

With it warmed up make sure that the throttle is resting on the curb idle set screw and that the fast idle cam has dropped. There's a carb forum sticky that can walk you through setting your choke correctly. If you'd like you can post a pic of the choke side.

Before dickering with the carb too much I would start out at zero degrees base with a new cap/rotor/plugs and known good wires. Disconnect the KS so you know it's not pulling timing until you got it running good. You can add timing later.

That distributor may be near 25+ years old. A reman unit can be had for ~$100. If the shaft has some wobble in it, replace it. If it looks good I'd at least do a new pickup coil for only a few $.

If you decide to swap, pull all of the harness out thru the pass side fender and save everything complete. You will need a spreadbore carb, dist and alternate means of locking the torque converter.

 

If I did do the swap (ill still try to right the existing CC setup): Can't i mount a squarebore onto the Edelbrock 2101 manifold? Or no? Also, what if I do not have a provision for the TCC, would it be like driving in regular 'D' all the time with no OD?

 

You can swap manifolds to use a squarebore or use an adapter plate (assuming hood clearance).

There's a sticky on alternate control of lock up. The lockup only engages at cruise and is vital to keeping internal transmission temperatures down.

 

TCC lockup is only supposed to happen over what - 40mph in od? Is this a dd now, not strip only? In typical mixed driving traffic conditions, it'll be ok without. Run mine for nearly 10 yrs now with no lockup, except a switch that rarely gets used. Only turn it on for sustained high speed cruising. Ie - haven't gotten round to controlling it properly yet - low priority.