So I think most of us would agree that there is a point where you've put too much money into a car. For instance you might have been able to buy another car with what you wanted in it for less that adding it to your current car, or a point where you'll never see your money back at resale time.

I was just wondering people's opinion as to how much is too much money to put in my Firebird. Being that I picked up the car cheap ($800), that helps. Minimal rust, low mileage but a swapped LG4 motor that possibly could be blown (still in trial and error here).

I want the car painted, new headliner, I need tires, and the possibly an engine swap. Here's the thing, my house doesn't have a garage so this would all be hired out to be done.. Anybody here think it's worth it? And how much is the max that you'd put into a stockish '85 Firebird (except LG4 305)? The car has everything I wanted, no T-tops, and no Power windows or locks, so thats less to go wrong.

Thanks
Dave

 

Cars are a labor of love. Odds are you will never get all your money back,lol. I've got around 3,500 in mine right now. I just say drive it alot and get your moneys worth. That,and focus on the drive train so it dependable. I know alot of people that have pretty cars sitting in there yard that have been parked for months. If your drive train is good then the car will always be worth atleast something.
If you can't do the work yourself its going to be hard. I don't really know how much it cost to paint cars but I know just have a door paints was going to run me $500! Figure others can give you good idea what having the work farmed out will cost ya...

 

I'm in the process of stripping down my IROC, and going to be restoring in 2010, along with a T-56 swap, stroked to a 383, new interior. I have to limit my dreams somewhere, just to keep my goals realistic, I'm obviously not made of cash, but I'd put as much into my Camaro as I could.

For example, if I was a millionaire, I'd have hundreds of thousands wrapped up just into my IROC. Starting with an $89,000 Sonny Leonard 932 cubic inch pro stock engine, and most likely the strongest 6 speed transmission ever built. Heck, I'd probably go crazy and send the engine over to Steve Morris Racing Engines, he can yank 3.7 horsepower per C.I. out of engines, on pump gas, that'd translate to 3,000+ streetable horsepower from a 932.

There really are no limits in my opinion. If you have a dream, and you have the means to accomplish it, do it. I would.

 

Oh yeah, that interior stripping is done. I'm ready for new paint and interior in 2010! Hopefully I have a few thousand dollars sitting in the bank, and then some, soon.

Check out all of that leg room.



Finally done.



Dreams. Sometimes they're crazy, just go along with it.

 

Honestly? You've already spent more than it's worth!

I got my 1992 RS 3 years ago for $800. I've added $12k to that in the last 3 years. I'll never get a penny of that back - never. And that's why it'll never be sold.

I started with a 1990 RS that I paid $500 for. I sank $1500 into that car, along with alot of blood sweat and tears, and sold it for $1000. It didn't have T-Tops, I wanted T-tops, and I wasn't about to spend another dime on a car that was different from what I really wanted.

If it's a passion, to have THAT car totally restored - then the sky is the limit - time will find the cash. If that's not the car of your dreams, but you like it, then do minimal amounts of restoring and maintenance to keep it running, and save your cash for YOUR dream ride.

If you had a car payment, and full coverage insurance required for that payment - what would that cost you per month? $300 maybe? That's what your car is worth, as long as that amount of cash will keep in running. I know alot of people with $400 or more a month spent on car payments and full coverage insurance. $400 x 36 (the 3 years I've had my 1992) = $14,400 - if you look at it that way, I haven't spent anymore on my car in the last 3 years than I would have if I bought a car off the lot 3 years ago. So my monthly or yearly car expense has been the same as anyone else. Difference is, I drive what I want, not what the dealer or the finance company would sell me.

To see the flip side of the coin - I also own a 1987 Ford Bronco II. I paid $400 for it 4 years ago - all I've done is change oil, put in a fuel pump, and rebuilt the top end. I've got under $800 total in the Ford, yet it's been there everyday I needed it, for the last 4 years. $300 x 4 (insurance on Bronco) = $1200 + $800 (spent on car & parts) = $2000 / 4 years = $500 a year. $500 a year has gotten me a 4x4 vehicle that is always ready to rumble (slow, but always ready, and will climb a tree!).

So, cost and "worth it" are kinda relative - it all boils down to how well you can justify it to your wife!

One more point I must make! I don't have a garage either! And I've done ALL my own work, with the help of a Haynes manual and this website. So MAN UP! Garage is not necessary - If my 44 year old a$$ can fight the heat, the rain, the cold, the mosquitos, for the last 3 years and still work up the nerve to go crawl around on the sloping concrete driveway again tomorrow - then so can you! 3 years ago I had nothing for tools, today I have more than most mechanics do - and they are included in the $12k estimate I've spent on my 1992.

 

You can never put to much money into a car if you have a reason to care about it.

Ill spend the rest of my life rebuilding my 86 Bird as needed when ever needed, reguardless of how much it cost but I have personal reasons on why it will never be to much money for me.

 

Situations like this are pretty tough, usually when someone has to ask how much is too much, they don't want to spend anything. I don't know though, I don't know the guy or his situation.

As I've mentioned, I'm not made of money, and I attempt to do all of my own work, but I come back to reality and know the cost of what I want in my IROC, and I fully understand that I'll never get a cent back, because I hope to have the car for decades, until the day I die. I'll be paid back though, with enjoyment. The other guy mentioned, it's a labor of love.

Eagle Stroker Kit - $1,600.

T-56 including a bellhousing, shifter, clutch, master cylinder, all that good stuff. - Anywhere from 500 in rough condition, up to $2,000 and over for a low mileage trans and components.

Decent paint job - Close to 2 grand, depending on the paint I choose.

Then added up with labor, and all the small things, I'll probably be spending over $7,000 in time, before my IROC is the way I want it, well, satisfied with it. Even if I'm not done by 2011, it's still ok with me.

Who knows, but if this guy wants any specific help, finding parts or what not, I'm sure we'll be here.

 

When the bank forecloses on your house.....
When the bank reposseses a car.....
When your wife leaves you because of it.....
When the is no food in the panty, yet UPS is still dropping off parts.....
When the house utilies start getting cut off for non-payment of the bills......

 

I just had to LOL at this. Good one, and so true.

 

if you have to ask then you might not love the car enough. Personally been saving up for over a year... soon as spring hits my 2001 convertible camaro is getting sold and the teardown and rebirth will begin....
Plans
1500 on interior/new weather stripping
3200 full front end rebuild, sfcs, and a strange s60
6500 zz4 roller crate, headers, magnaflow
200 to sodablast the body
3500 budgeted for paint/body repair
$16,000 total including cost of the car....
To me 16,000 is worth a fully redone car with a 350+ hp.
More importantly i will have replaced and touched every bolt... Thats when you can call a car yours. Plus a hugger orange iroc-z.... been a dream since highschool.
I hope you keep her goodluck!

 

As you can see, there is no straight answer.
I've topped $20,000 in parts for my "toy" and i'm still not done.
Too much? To some. Sometimes even to me. But the feeling of despair vanishes every time I start it up.

 

That's another good valid reason. Though sometimes you may need to not drive it for a bit to remind yourself of that.

 

I don't even want to know how much I've spent over the 10 years I've had mine, and the spending isn't done yet. 2 engines, 2 paint jobs, lots of other upgrades plus nickel and dime stuff. Probably wont sell it unless the price is right and about the only way I'd get rid of it is either crash so bad it's a total loss or just part it out.

 

If you like the car and it's not a rust bucket or been wrecked badly then any amount is ok as long as you don't plan to sell it and get the money back, you won't. I spent 15K on my car when I bought it new in 92 , it about time to spend another 15K on it to make it look new and have a new LSX engine, I'll never sell it so it's worth it to me and still a lot cheaper than buying a new Camaro.

 

House - I rent - no issue here
Car - I pay cash for everything - no repos here
Wife - spends car parts cash on things like rent and utilities and food for the pantry! So remind me why this is a bad thing, 'cause I'm just not seeing it
Food - with BK making $1 double cheeseburgers, I save alot for car parts - let the pantry go empty!
Utilities - Work light, volt/ohm meter, and drill have batteries - everything else is a hand tool! Laptop has batteries so I can get on TGO!

Got any other ****-poor excuses?

 

Nothing is too much. Im eating my PB&J off my 350 block, using my air compresser as a foot rest/table/bench, my oil pan (flipped uside down) is my end table, my collection of loaded tool boxes double as foot rests as well, my headers are hanging from the wall like a priceless painting, my transmission is about to double as a coat rack for a while. Its not about the $$$ its about priorites. And if i can muster up the strength to haul a 350 block from my truck, to my appartment, and turn my living room into a functional garage, then its obvious where my priorities are. Its not about how much money you spent, its about when you're gonna get more to spend. If you're concerned about saving money, do your own labor. Saves thousands. And it really aint that hard, like previously stated, buy every book ever written on what you're working on, and browse tgo till the banner at the top gets burned into your laptop screen. Thats what im doing, and loving every second of it. Oh, and if it comes down to rent vs parts, that drivers seat does recline all the way back..... and t-tops offer a great view.

 

depends on how fast you wanna go. and im still not going fast enough. btw the whole no food in the pantry yet ups is still dropping off boxes.. yeah i just bought a new cam and intake.. i dont get paid for 2 more weeks.. i got 30 bucks in my pocket and my truck is on E. BUT i have a really nice looking cam and intake sitting on the mantle for me to look at every morning

 

Sorry I couldn't respond. Anybody else having problems with the site? I couldn't get on the site for over a week and couldn't log in until today.

Anyways, thanks for the replys.

I had $4000 set aside for the car and wasn't for sure set on an engine swap if I didn't need it. I do want to go fast but being able to drive it at all was goal number one. I got hit with some expenses when my taxes were due and my fiancee went without a job for a bit so I had to use some of my Bird money. Now I'm still saving and rebudgeting how much I'll need for next year.

Oh, and I do love the car. Ideally I'd have a 2nd gen but for what I'm willing to pay for a project car in good shape I can't get what I want and the parts are more expensive and rarer for the 2nd gens. I probably won't sell my Firebird for a long time.

I've already got a full exhause headers back ready to be installed, some parts for the 305 to replace. I still have to buy suspension and brake parts. I feel like the car is sitting a lot lower that it should be (possibly cuz it had a V6 originally?)

Any idea on what struts, etc cost? I'm clueless on suspension

I was planning on $1000 max on the paint job and may do that myself.

The interior just needs to be shampooed mainly. Headliner shouldn't be more than $300. I need a new center console, and dash pad.

The headliner I should be able to get done for $100 to $250 I think.

I should be able to get the wheels restored pretty cheap.

I need new tires so thats absolute max $700 that I'm willing to put into it.

The engine is my biggest pain. It may not be shot but it's slow. That can be a costs for later if the engine is fine. I'll deal with slow till I can do the engine setup I want which is a 350 vortec or 355.

I could probably do the engine myself, what I meant about not having a garage was the my driveway is partial gravel and it's a pain to move anything on it. I can't do the swap over a period of days because the engines would just be sitting outside then. The other thing is I live in a double and we have six cars in the driveway that can't be parked on the street.

The estimates for and engine swap I've received are about $1500 labor plus the cost of the engine. Any idea if this is on par? What about used vs. new engines? Any experiences with those and costs?

And my tranny is good from what a shop told me.

Think I coverd about all areas?

 

You'll get alot farther on alot less buck if you stop talking to folks that want your labor dollar and do it yourself.

Headliner - $15 of fabric and $10 can of headliner spray adhesive and 2 hours of your time.

Wheels - just need $10 of sandpaper, $10 of metal polish, and some elbow grease

Tires - www.tirerack.com - cheaper than any local tire shop even with shipping, should get 4 Z-rated tires for $450, and pay a local $15 each to balance and install.

Engine Swap - in my book, $1500 is 2 engines! Swapping is easy, takes a day. Getting everything disconnected and reconnected takes another day. $50 rental on a picker, and $20 of 5/8ths plywood to roll it on if you have no concrete/asphalt driveway. 350's can be had all day long for under $800, already built, carb to pan with heads. Granted not going to be good heads - but that's another swap later when time/money allows. My 350 cost me $600 carb to pan, with 10:1 dometop pistons and a mild cam. Engines can sit outside - that's why God created WD40 and trash bags - spray the parts down & wrap a bag around it!

Dashpad - ebay - $250 - $300
Console - ebay - $75 max

So far - I'm under $1600 (assuming $1000 for a motor) - that's everything you mentioned except paint, and all for what your going to pay for labor. But then again, I'm tight, and I like to do my own work - even though I have no garage either. I'm always rolling around in the driveway and yard

$100 for new bushings motor mounts, etc. (that's poly - rubber cheaper)
$150 for new springs (that's Eibach, stock cheaper)
$150 for tie rod ends/ball joints
$150 for wonderbar
$700 for new shock/struts (that's Bilsteins - there are cheaper)

Another $1250 for suspension - still under $3k

You'll want exhaust in there too - $300 for headers & Y-pipe

But you've got to turn the wrenches! It's not hard - if I can do it, anyone can!

 

Curious where are you getting your engine price from? I haven't been able to find any at that price.

 

Just got to hunt around, and keep an ear to the ground.

Here's a possible: http://buffalo.craigslist.org/pts/1472213403.html
and: http://buffalo.craigslist.org/pts/1471463323.html
and here: http://buffalo.craigslist.org/pts/1471570115.html

the last one I'd offer $450 and see if he bites (not that $600 is unreasonable) but 882 heads are smog heads from the 70's and no matter what you do to them they aren't gonna be anything special

Those 3 were just listed TODAY!!! Looks like you have lots of options in that area - maybe more than I have here!

edit - another - may not be as close, but it's within driving distance and it's complete:
http://rochester.craigslist.org/pts/1472394386.html

 

Oh, so you did mean a used engine. I thought you meant a new engine carb to pan for $800. I'd take one right now. Well you did hit on another question I had with the engine. Should I stay away from the 70's and early 80's 350s? And if I got a fuel injected 350 from the 90s I would just need a new intake for it right?

 

From 1956 to 1986, all 350 blocks are the same -the heads will be different, but the blocks are the same. You don't want a pre-70's motor with pre-70's heads, as they won't have the accessory holes in them, and thus no where to attach your alternator, p/s pump, etc. - unless someone has updated the heads already as in my case. Everyone says that the 882 heads are terrible (typical late 70's early 80's heads), and they are, for a racing application - they have large combustion chambers thus less power - but the mere fact that it's a 350 will make it quite impressive to you after having a 305.

PLUS - since you have an LG4, this means you have #416 heads (probably). So, you could get a used 350 with the 882 heads used, and drop it in as is - get it tuned, get it running, and get the rest of your project done. Then later, as time/money allows, you can do your own port/polish job on the #416 heads from the LG4 ($100 plus your time), get a good valve job done with new valve seals ($250) and go one size up on the intake valves($100), and then replace the 882 heads with the newly refurbed 416 heads - lowering the combustion chamber size dramatically, increasing the compression significantly, and thus produce alot more power than the 882 heads.

I'm not too well versed in the late 80's early 90's 350's, and what the differencs are from 1986 and up - other than the heads have different bolt hole angles, and thus different intakes are required to match up (unless you drill out the intake holes to an oblong shape so that the older intakes will bolt up).

After early 1990's, were now talking LT1's and LS1's - and I know nothing much on these at all, other than they are no longer Gen 1 blocks, which means differences in the block itself, and not merely head or intake differences.

And yes, a later model 350 that was EFI would mean either a different intake, or keeping the EFI system and installing the appropriate ECM and extra sensor wiring into your car.

And yes - I meant used 350's! Nothing wrong with a good used motor - mine is a 1969 block, and it runs good and strong, even with the crappy 882 heads (but I have 10:1 dometop pistons to help lower that combustion chamber size and increase the compression).

Remember - your in SBC country now - the parts are plentiful, and the possibilities are endless.

 

really, it does not cost that much to do w.e you are going to do to a car as long as you do the work yourself

I am 14 years old, and have bought a 1985 trans am with a very powerful chevy 350 engine for 600 bucks, so far i have put 700 into it including a racing radiator, a hood, a new alternator, a new water pump and more.

and I am paying for all of it with my own money.

so in my opinion there is no such thing as putting to much into a car if you do the work yourself.

 

Camaronewbie, I know my engine's an '87 roller 305 possibly different heads on it.

The only thing that's putting me off on doing the swap myself is that whoever did the first swap left the engine bay a mess! I've got wires all over the place. I want to do the engine once and do it right if this 305 is shot. I know I fell in love with the power of my friends '05 GTO 6-Speed and it's the power I'm looking to emulate. I've driven a ton of cars, vettes, etc cuz I used to sell them but that GTO was my favorite. I know I can get the 400 hp out of a 350, but like I said I wanna do it once and right.

Unfortunatly 40 grand in student loans don't want to agree with this!

You really think that the swap will have me seeing a big difference with a stock 350? I've taken in late 80's early 90's trucks with stock 350s that just didn't impress me that much. If ya look at the power ratings at some of 350's they weren't that great. I almost bought a late 70's Monte that I think had 140 hp out of a 350.

 

Granted, there are alot of variables. But I can tell you that there was a huge world of difference between my 305 TBI 2.73 auto and my old smog headed 350 carb 3.42 auto - it's like night and day! I'll never win any races, but it's alot of fun, were the 305 was just transportation.

 

I kept a spreadsheet of all items, do not do that unless you are ready for the total. $600 headers are rusted and I have not drove it 50 miles. I think jet-hot was lifetime warrranty.

The money isn't the big problem, it's all the junk I accummulated for parts along the way.

The same as Grandpa's tractor I have, I could not sell it for 1/3 what I got in it.

 

It comes down to what you enjoy more, driving a high-perf car or getting laid. There's some of each that are better than the other...
You will always spend too much money on both, and never get your money back out of either. It's a balancing act.
If you spend enough money on your car that your kids go hungry, then you're spending too much...
Besides, what else do us guys have to spend money on that is "fun"? Apparel?

 

Good points, I always ask my wife, "What tangible assests do you have from that $500. you spent"? "That will be in a garage sale(goodwill box) next year"

I do actually say it that way because with her 4+ years of college she still doesn't get it,(blond thing)

 

You can probably pick up a good used harness for pretty cheap to replace the one that is all messed up, then you can do your swap later.

 

You do know people are making 2000hp with 454's blown or less lol

 

youd be the typical millionaire...one day a millionaire...next day bankrupt....and a twisted car that wont drive straight after your 100k motor

 

I think a parts car or two is the way to go. If you have a nice body and need the internals just find a wrecked car that runs well as a donor.

Better yet get a wrecked forth gen and take the LT1 or even LS1 out of it. Maybe leather interior, disc rear ect.

Keep the rest or sell parts and start subtracting from the total instead of adding.

I'm in negative territory with my IROC right now and I feel I could drive it anywhere.
We went to Tucson last week and got 24.3 mpg.

 

"Steve Morris Racing Engines, he can yank 3.7 horsepower per C.I. out of engines, on pump gas, that'd translate to 3,000+ streetable horsepower from a 932."

You must of not understood, or read my post clearly enough. I couldn't care less if someone can make even 4,000 HP with a 454, if it's not on 93 or less pump gas, it's not for me.

Lower octane pump gas has more energy per gallon, it has considerably less carbon than let's say, 100 Octane race gas. I will never in my life run a car that is not streetable. Blowing tons extra worth of carbon through my heads, running non DOT approved tires, that whole lifestyle isn't for me, I'm no track nutter.

All of that means, I'm into engines with absolutely huge amounts of displacement, to over come the limits of pump gas. Unfortunetly, I'll be running my lil' 5.7 for the next few years, most likely stroke it out to a 6.3.

 

when my wallet is empty :P but once its got more $$ in it///back to the bird<3 haha

 

I would of replied a lot sooner.. But I haven't really been posting regularly since January.

Oh yeah, how stupid of me, I forgot that you knew me personally. LOL. No, that was purely an example, probably not something that I would really do. Even if I wanted to, so what? 1,000+ HP cars are street driven every day of the week. Production cars, actually. Koenigsegg.. Bugatti.. SSC Aero TT's.. Zenvo ST1.. Locus Plethore.. The Weineck Cobra which produces 1,100 Horsepower N/A with a 12.9 litre V8. The Lotec Sirius.. The Bristol Fighter T.. The Venom 1000 Viper from Hennessey.. The Ford GT1000 from Hennessey..

ty_rich, in the end of 2009, you seemed to be trolling on a couple of the threads I was posting on, calling BS on almost every word of mine. Do you have a personal problem with me?

 

It's only money, it comes "in" every two weeks, as long as your working!!! Think of it this way, it's your entertainment money that your spending on your firebird!!! If you buy another motor it will be fun to install it, making your car go faster, pure entertainment, money well spent!!! Your going to go through life looking for things to do, thus your going to entertain yourself, it all boils down to entertainment money, you can never spend enough!!! Do you drink? Your spending your entertainment money, you just have to direct it to where you figure you'll get good entertainment value for your money!!! There will always be a dilema as to where to spend your money, car, booze, wife, girl friend, food, house, etc!!! Think of it this way, how much money is too much money to spend on the wife? I bet you'll always spend money on the wife, cause she's priceless......so, your car's priceless too!!! What if you said, "that's it, I'm not spending another cent on gas for the car" your life would be pretty crappy walking everywhere's!!! There is no limit to what you'll spend on your car, from the purchase price, to the up keep, to the every day $$$ for gas etc!!!! Just spend it wisely, and get the most value for your entertainment $$$$$!!!

 

As I have posted in my The old 1992 305 is getting old replacing it with a 383 thumper thread this subject was asked. I also have a fried who says it's stupid just get you a new car yada yada yada. Like I told him I like the car and I can only make it better. When people look at it and go nice carI can say I did most of the work myself.

I bought my car in 1999 for around $7000 I totaled it that cost me $3000 to get it fixed in 2001, I also bought 4 Centerline wheels, Hedman Headers, Borla Exhaust, shocks, struts, clutch assembily, cross drilled and slotted rotors. All of that was right at $2000. Now the clearcoat is coming off, interior needs replacing motor has almost 200,000 miles on it. By mid 2011 I will have a new car again. The motor will be $7000, transmission will be $2800 for a new T-56 rated for 650 ft-p/t, paint body work will be $4000, then another $2000 for the rearend and suspension upgrades. I will also be replacing the wheels again with the 18" vette style along with the 4 wheel disc brakes.

If you like the car and never want to sell it no price is too much.

Back in 1989 I had the chance to buy a '68 Mustang convertible that needed fixing up. I didn't and have regretted it ever since. I can afford to do this now and have the car of my dreams (well almost I can't afford a '69 Boss 429 Mustang) and do most of the work myself.

 

Think about what the typical non-enthusiast car owner spends on vehicles over the years. You finance a car, pay it off over several years, then probably trade it in before long after that and start the process all over again.

I like to look at it this way: when you're restoring an old car, yes you are spending money over time, but so are you when you finance a vehicle. The difference is, with an old vehicle, you will have to work on it, but it's condition will improve over time. Well, at least, if you're doing it right. When financing a "new" vehicle, it's condition will only decrease over time, but you can be reasonably sure it won't need much work for a while.

Either way you go, you will lose money over time. The question is, do you want the peace of mind of having a new car, or do you not mind having to work on a car every now and then. Personally, I don't mind working on my cars, and I usually even enjoy it. Also, if you average out what I spend over say a year on my car versus a car payment, it's actually cheaper.

 

I think if you are a real gearhead then there is no question on how much is too much.

 

The only realistic way to get the money back that you have put into a car is to use it to rob banks.
Its a hobby. Maybe if the kids keep ripping open the boxes the UPS guy drops off looking for food you should spend a little less on the car.
To me spending money on any old clunker makes more sense than buying a new car every year, especially if you prefer the feeling of dirt mixed with engine oil in your eye rather than impressing your friends with that "new car" smell.

 

Summed up, there is no limit!! Your going to put the money somewhere's, it might as well be into your car!! Make it the car of your dreams!!! Spend away!!!

$400.00 per month on car payment vs $400.00 per month on parts payments!!! Like I said, your going to put the money somewhere's!!!

Enjoy!!!!

 

And the more you work on your car the more you learn.

 

like everyone else says, the only limit is how much your willing to spend at the time, and how much you can spend. I'm kinda lucky that I have a girlfriend who doesnt care about me spending money on parts for cars, she knows i love this firebird I got and despite needing a complete restoration it is driveable, and she knows I'll love working on it when it gets warmer out. I probably wouldnt spent no $15k on it in one shot, but $15k spread out over a couple years on single items wouldnt phase me a bit, and I never been much of a person to care about what I can get out of it later, I dont plan on selling anyways. Besides like my cousin says "It's only money, I'll make more"

 

Nice to see another Mustang lover on here.

I know this is a site for GM cars, but I hate the rivalries. Camaro and Firebird guys owe a bit of respect to the Mustang. Without the Mustang, there would be NO Camaro.

"Pony car is an American class of automobile launched and inspired by the Ford Mustang in 1964."

"Initially, General Motors believed that the restyled 1965 Corvair would be an adequate challenger for the Mustang, but when it became clear that the Corvair itself was doomed, the more conventional Chevrolet Camaro was introduced"

Our Camaros and Firebirds are simply GM's competitors to Ford's version of a cheap, higher powered V8 2+2 style compact car. Uh oh, I'm rambling!