Alright, some of you may have read my previous post in the electrical section, I am still having some trouble and I am running out of ideas. Here is where I am at:

I thought my battery was dead, because I was getting slow crank/no crank from the starter. I tried 3 different batteries, all of which were good (at least according to my $110 battery charger/tester), and were at 100% charged. No dice. So I took out my #1 plug and tried to turn it over by hand. Turns out, I was flooded out and the cylinders were hydrolocked. I took out all the plugs, spun the crank a few times by hand, and then the starter cranked fine. Nice and fast. I blew out all the gas from the cylinders, put all the plugs back in, and it was still cranking alright it seemed like. It was a little slower obviously, but still not bad. By the time I hooked my fuel pump back into an accessory wire and hooked all my plug wires back up, I was back to slow cranking.

The starter is 2 days old, and replaced one I had bought on Oct 18 that the solenoid went bad on. When I turn the key, it either clicks once, or it cranks slowly. The Batt + goes straight to the large peg on the starter, and the starter crank wire is on the S peg. I sanded down where the starter mounts to ensure no paint is getting in the way of the ground.

I have a bracket installed on the block (I think it was the AC bracket? That or smog pump, can't remember... I nixed both of those a long time ago) I sanded it down so that where it mounts up on the block is bare metal, and the area on the block is bare metal as well. I also sanded down the area that I have my ground cable going to, so it is bare metal, and I sanded down all of my ground wire contacts. I have the Batt - wire going straight to that bracket, and on the same bolt I have a fat (1ga I think) wire going straight to the chassis, which is also bare metal.

Do I have 3 bad batteries? Do I have 2 bad chargers? Am I missing something? It cranked very fast and healthy when I first installed the replacement starter, but now it does not. When the starter was first installed, I got it to fire and run for several seconds, but it was extremely fast (4000+ RPM) because I had the wrong throttle cable bracket on it and it was holding the throttle wide open.

Somebody please help me, before I rip out all my hair and blow up my garage! I don't know what else to do!

 

Have you checked your battery cables for resistance, its possible one of your wires has cracked or corroded if the insulation around the wire has cracked or broken up even a little bit. With your plugs out you have no compression in the engine, your starter is going to require very little amps to spin over, this amount of amps has no trouble passing through the corrosion or break in your wire, now with the plugs back in, compression is back up, your starter is going to draw alot more amps which can not pass the problem area in your wire. cross your fingers and hope my theory is right lol.

 

I don't have an ohm meter, but I did cut a little insulation to look. The wires look pretty new, no visible corrosion. When I first installed the starter, it had a very healthy crank with all the plugs in.

Now there is no crank at all. I just drained the oil, and it was full of fuel, but I don't have more oil to put in as of right now, so I guess I am going to let it sit for a little bit and see what happens. Once I get some more oil in I will pull a plug and hand crank it again, and see if I can get the starter to turn it after that.

I don't know what else to try. I have tried everything I could think of, searched forums and google endlessly, and still have not seen any results. I am to the point where I just want my car to work again :-(

 

haha I know it can get very annoying, im still pretty new at this, im a first year apprentice mechanic and the proud owner of an 84 T/A, I had basically the same problem, only my fix was new battery terminals and I was off again, try to get a loan of an Ohm meter, its worth a try, double check your battery terminals and your clamps on the end of your wires thats you bolt to the starter, maybe a bad connection there. Theres also a way that you can check for resistance in your wires with a volt meter by doing whats called a voltage drop.

 

This is a fresh 350 that I just installed after throwing a rod in my last one back in April. I am familiar with how to check the resistance and voltage drops, but it just doesn't seem to be the problem. If I can get a tester I will give it a shot, just to be sure.

Does anyone else have any ideas? Anything obvious that I am missing? Is it possible I caused serious damage to the engine or starter from the hydrolock, or having fuel built up in the oil?

 

I don't mean to sound desperate... but I am! I have no other transportation. This car is all I have, and if I can't get it running soon, I don't know what I am going to do.

 

Honestly im a little confused too. Im gonna take a few shots in the dark here, hoping maybe somehow this will help.

Have you checked the ignition switch? I've heard of where when they start going they will cause problems similar to yours. Maybe you could try starting it by jumping the starter (bypassing ig. switch)

Even if the ign switch isnt the problem, trying to start it right at the starter may not be a bad idea- if it does start up now you have narrowed the problem down quite a bit, right?

Voltage drop is a good idea.

What he said about it turning over easier with the plugs out is correct, so just because it turned over with them out easier doesnt realy mean much..

"By the time I hooked my fuel pump back into an accessory wire and hooked all my plug wires back up, I was back to slow cranking."

This stands out a bit to me... maybe there is some resistance along the fuel pump wiring/accessory wire? Maybe try undoing the wires again and see how it reacts?

Also, you can buy a multi-meter for a very reasonable price at any auto parts store. Ive seen a cheap one at walmart for $15 i think. It'll at least get the job done.


Thats all i can think of for now, if i think of anything else ill let you know... Try the above and let us know how it goes!

 

Yes, I have. It is good.

Gave it a shot already, same result-click no crank.

Tried that already, didn't make any difference at all. It is a long wire running to the fuel pump, and I may need to thicken it up later, but it is 10ga brand new wire. Multiple strand type, not solid.

I am going to take off my battery wires and my ground wire and measure them out for replacements. I am getting a lot of feedback that it could be the problem, and I will admit the Batt + cable does look a little on the lame side. I am not sure if I will be able to get replacements tonight, seeing as wal mart will be my only choice to buy them from. I'll post pictures of them, so you can see... they aren't great, but I don't know what else to suspect.

I have verified my battery is good, and the starter is brand new... unless I burnt it trying to crank it while my engine was hydrolocked, which I suppose is possible, but it seems unlikely since it still spun up after I cleared out the cylinders. I guess maybe the cables were on their last leg, and that was the last straw.

 

Well... I am kinda embarassed to post pictures of these... but here they are.

I am either going to clean these up, and try them again, or replace them. I am pretty low on cash, but these are really gnarly once I took them apart and looked at them. I will post back later with what I decide to do and whether or not it helped.

 

The problem is another bad starter from Napa. There is actually green corrosion going up into the solenoid, after closer inspection of the starter. It will not spin on a bench. Single click, no crank.

I did purchase new cables (no fancy 0ga stuff this time, too broke for that) and I could not spin the starter in the car or in the bench, with all my very well assembled battery/starter/ground wiring...

 

Hey sieber still no dice huh? Looks like you found your problem, those connectors look pretty gnarly! And a rash of bad replacement starters - though with the cable problems, maybe your original starter is ok?

My cables did this to me earlier this year - looked perfectly fine on the outside but the battery ground was crumbling to icky spooge on the inside. It was intermittently able to supply the starter current, other times no crank at all but lights etc worked. So it was a bear to track down.

I stuck the terminal in a vice, have it a good tug and the cable shattered off the terminal just up from where it was crimped. The insulation had hidden the mess perfectly.

Only found this because I was bypassing all the big cables one by one in desperation.

 

The original may very well have been okay, seeing as how it would still spin. This one, on the other hand, does not spin at all. There is visible green corrosion on it going under the soldered post coming from the motor. Unfortunately, as I am replacing these on warranty, I don't have the prior one. I am just going to have to swap this one for another. Shouldn't be too bad, though, since it won't even spin on the bench.

The photos didn't do those cables justice. They were really, really aweful. It may not have caused and issues at this point, but it would have down the road.

 

Alright, so here's the deal... I installed the replacement starter, charged my battery, and turned over the engine without the #1 plug in (because I forgot to put it back in, not because I intended to have it out) and the car fired up for a second and then cut back off. I also did not have the fuel pump hooked up at this time.

I hooked the pump back up to my accessory wire, and put the #1 plug and wire back together, and then I couldn't get it to fire again. I tried disconnecting the pump again to ensure it wasn't due to too much draw off of the circuit it was running to (just picked a random wire that is 12v when the key is on), and still nothing.

My plugs are dry, so I know I am not flooded. I tried pouring some fuel directly into the carb, still no fire. What am I doing wrong? How much fuel does it need to start? Is there something specific I should be checking here? When the fuel pump is running, it seems to be pumping pretty slowly. I watched it pumping fuel, and it took it a little bit just to wet the plates.

 

is your timing correct? retarded timing would cause these issues too.

 

It should be, but I will advance it a bit just to be sure...

 

No luck with advancing the timing. The results are still the same.

 

Didn't you have a no spark issue as well as no crank, or was that another guy?

 

That was me. The no spark was resolved, all battery cables and ground straps were replaced, and I had to swap the starter. I now have a new starter, and I am getting spark. It cranks, but it still seems to crank slower than it should most of the time.

 

Is this a computer controlled carb? Is it a TBI?

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention. No, it is not. It is an Edelbrock 1407, 750 CFM. My dizzy on the other hand is computer controlled--but before you jump down my throat, it worked okay before the engine swapped without the vacuum advance dizzy. I plan to replace it when I have the funds, but right now I don't...

 

Whether is an electronic, or not doesn't matter when it comes to starting, The ECM has no control of the timing until the rpm is => than 600. Now explain the computer control of your Dizzy without computer control of the engine. Can't help if we don't know what you have.

 

It is an 84 Z28, came with a 305 with a CCC, rochester quadrajet. Ditched the quadracrap and installed the 1407. It had a 350 when I got it, but all the original electronics were the same.

So the carb is the only computer-related item that was changed. I don't even know if the sensors work or not. Everything is hooked up right now except the leads that went to the CCC. The harness is original still, I haven't cut/removed anything.

I have no idea why it has worked, I just know in the past it did. I timed it by putting it at TDC on #1, dropping in the dizzy with the rotor pointed at #1, and set my wires up from there. Then I plugged it into the wiring harness.

 

If the ignition control module doesn't have 7 pins it's not computer controlled.
If your absolutely sure that you have good spark, and fuel and you're not flooding it then barring fouled plugs and, or insufficient compression, I would guess improper timing.

 

I put a wet napkin in the #1 hole, cranked (by hand) til it flew out, turned the damper to where the timing tab would be if it had one, set the dizzy in with the rotor to point at #1 and set my wires from there.

I believe the module has 6 pins? I would have to look.

 

As for flooding, it happened once, and I took out all the plugs (which were not fouled), cranked out all the gas without the pump hooked up, and changed the oil. I pulled the #1 plug, and it is dry right now. I haven't put more than a couple ounces of fuel through it tops after the one time it fired after getting the new starter, but idk how much it takes to flood it? It doesn't even sound like it is TRYING to fire. It will crank, and I am 110% sure I have spark (set the plug & wire on my windshield with a wrench to ground and cranked, I get a strong white spark)

 

Not a good situation to be in without a timing tab. Even if you buy a bolt on you'll have to find True TDC, but with angle plugs that's not easy to do.

 

What do you suggest I do? Does it still sound like a timing issue? I know using the napkin trick and spinning it to where the timing tab would be isn't the best method, but I didn't think that was the problem, as there have been a couple times when it has fired for a few seconds and sounded fine... I don't suppose there could be much else wrong at this point.

I was thinking about taping up a coat hanger and sticking that in the cylinder, and just turning it over until I can't pull the coat hanger out... but I am not too sure on that one. I am pretty much out of ideas, and I need this car running ASAP.

 

Another thing, can I just use the timing tab off my old 350? It was an early 80s block, this is a late 80s block... I believe the damper is the same size

 

It's not possible for a coat hanger to get stuck, that won't work, whatever you use it will need to point down towards the piston and should not move once it's in place, if it moves when the piston hits it will have to move the same amount when you rotate the crank in the opposite direction. The other option would be to remove the head.

 

I'm not going to remove the head, unless I absolutely have no other option. I don't think my old timing tab is welded on... I will go look at the old block and find out. So, would it be insufficient to get to where I am approaching TDC, and then rotate to where the mark on my damper lines up with a bolted on timing tab, and then drop in the dizzy with the rotor pointed at #1? I was pretty sure I knew what I was doing on the timing until I started thinking about it... now I am not so sure

 

If I'm not mistaken the timing tab is spot welded on to the cover, replacing the cover isn't easy either. if it's bolted to the cover, and the dampener is the same size that should work if the balance ring hasn't slipped.

 

Well, the dampener is the same size... but you are correct, it is welded on.

 

I read a trick online about busting out a spark plug, attaching some clear hose to it, running it into a jar of oil... what do you think of that option?

Well, I am going to give it a shot. I already hollowed out the plug, and I have clear tubing. a 9mm 1/4 drive deep well socket presses into the plug like it was made to fit. I will see if this works out and I guess I will post back in a while with whether or not my attempt has any measure of success. I am done fabricating the tool, on to the mayhem :-P

 

Using the method stated above, I checked my timing and basically came up with approximately the same location for TDC on #1. After marking the proper spots on the block/timing cover and measuring to the middle of the two marks, my rotor was pointed at #1, which is where my #1 wire is located. Am I doing something wrong? This seems to be pretty straightforward... and it seems to already be set to TDC...

I also pulled the valve cover and used the method of watching the valves until the #1 intake valve closes, and I get the same result that way as well.

So, I have used the wet napkin, finger over the spark plug hole, watching the valves, the fabricated oil bubbler... It is starting to seem unlikely that I am not close enough to TDC to start up and run...

 

The ignition module has 7 pins.

 

Why did it flood out in the first place and have you solved that problem so as to be confident that it is not doing it again?

Do you have an electric fuel pump? The H model would not, the G model might, for 84.

The distributor will run, or at least try to, even if it is pretty far out of time. Quit dickering with the timing unless it's backfiring through the intake, sputtering and generally carrying on and refusing to idle. If it's not firing the mixture in the wrong place, moving it around is not going to make it miraculously start firing.

If you haven't definitively fixed your earlier flooding problem, guess what?

 

Also just realized that I don't have a knock sensor installed. So, since I have had all my computer crap plugged in all this time, it is likely that the computer is adjusting the timing to a full knock retard, which if I understand can be up to 20* to prevent engine damage? It appears that the builder of the engine simply put a plug in place of a knock sensor.

When I got the engine, the guy had told me that some sensors needed to be replaced on the TBI that came with it to get the timing right, I think maybe the lack of a knock sensor probably has something to do with it... I have another hour or so until I can go out and try to fire it up, because I don't want to wake up people that are sleeping. I have put everything back together that I had disassembled to verify my timing, and I am going to try cranking it with the computer disconnected. I know it will run with no advance if I can get it to start that way, but that is a whole lot better than trying to start it with some seriously wacky timing, courtesy of the computer.

If I can get it to start that way, I will go pull the knock sensor off my old block and try plugging everything back in.

 

The flooding was fixed. I removed the plugs, dried out the cylinders, changed the oil. I got it to fire after that. It has an electric pump, but it is an aftermarket inline pump that I installed. It does not have an opsu, because I can't afford one right now. It is on a toggle switch. My plugs are dry now when I pull them out, so I don't see any likelihood that I flooded it again.

I do not know for sure it will not flood again. It flooded the first time cause I ran the fuel pump way too much trying to get it to start up. It had enough fuel in it to hydrolock when that happened...

 

Running your fuel pump will not make it flood UNLESS you either have the wrong pump on there or your carb is fubar. The float switch in the carb should block fuel flow into it when the float bowl is full. If the pump provides too much head (high pressure) it can force the needle off the seat and flood OR the needle/seat assembly is screwed and allowing this fuel in at operating fuel pressures.

DO NOT booger with your knock sensor even if you have one. IT IS NOT causing it not to fire. AGAIN even if your timing were as far out of whack as you could get it the distributor will still try to ignite the charge somewhere in the combustion cycle. That's apparently not happening.

The motor can flood enough to not start or be hard to start without fuel dripping out of your plugs. Simply drying out your motor will NOT fix the problem that caused it to flood.

Your computer controlled distributor will still run even if the computer is not hooked up. The ICM has a limp home timing curve built in that will work. You will get crappy mileage and performance though. I'd wager that a few tanks of wasted gas would pay for the correct distributor.

 

Well, what should I do now then? I get what you're saying... I just don't know what else to try. I am not sure how the carb could be screwed up. It was brand new when I installed it on my old block, and it saw about 2 months and maybe 4k-5k miles before the old engine died.

 

Yes, there were 4 & 7 pin ICMs. I can't determine from what you've said if it has vacuum advance, or not.

Did you squirt some oil in the cylinder to seal to properly operate the manometer (that's the tester you made.)
If you did then, Yes, It does seems you're close enough on the compression stroke.

It may be that if it's really cold you'll need more fuel (just noticed your in Alaska) gasoline needs to warm up to vaporize you should use starting fluid, but have someone cranking it before spraying into the carb. Leave the fuel pump disabled while doing this until it actual starts and stays running for several seconds.

 

I have gotten it to start up twice and run for several seconds, one of those occasions being yesterday. Yes, I did squirt a little oil in the cylinder before using my manometer (thanks for the new vocabulary word)

It is nice and cold outside, but the car has been in a well heated garage for about a month, so it shouldn't be a problem there.

Edit: Sorry, no vac. advance, missed that on the first read

 

Little update, I just got it to fire again and run for about a second. I am going to do a little bit of tinkering with the fuel system setup and see if I can figure out if it just isn't getting enough fuel... It seems like the bowls in the carb aren't coming anywhere close to filling up, even if I just sit there and run the pump... I might have it mounted at a wacky angle or something... I will post back in a bit.

 

I would say double check spark. When I installed my new motor it fired right up. We ran it a little, got some heat in her and turned it off for the night. Went out the next day and nothing. We struggled half the day and finally realised that some how my power wire to my dizzy was junk.

 

Another question, I have my fuel pump mounted on the frame rail on the passenger side in the engine compartment. It is as low as possible for where it is... but will it make a huge difference if it is closer to the fuel tank? Am I going to have to go lower?

 

You should have a mechanical pump mounted on the engine block.
carb needs very little psi. tbi and efi have higher fuel pressure requirements.
if you are running an electric pump it needs to be regulated.

NAPA sells junk these days. not like the old napa.
grab a started and distributor from a bone yard.

 

I am aware of the stock mechanical fuel pump configuration. However, when I did my engine swap, I put in an engine that does not have a cam for the mechanical pump, and ran a block off plate. The new block also has a 4-bolt pattern for the fuel pump instead of 2. I already have a starter that has a 3 year warranty. I know Napa's parts are shoddy, but until Oct 18 2014 they will keep replacing it if I have future problems with it.

As far as going to a junk yard to get parts goes, the junk yards here are not what they are in the lower 48. They are few and far between, and to even find viable parts in a junk yard would cost me a lot of time and effort, and I would likely pay very close to what they would cost new.

 

Clogged fuel filter...no fuel situation or possible debris from tank jamming needle valve open or closed.Most fuel pumps are pushers not pullers do you have any idea what pressure it puts out? One thing I have overlooked in the past is mixed up plug wires sounds like you are not having fun at this point, simple things unhooked or overlooked suck!

 

Well, I figured out how to get all the mechanical fuel pump crap hooked up, so I am going to see if that works for me. It isn't plug wires, I have double and triple checked them.

Now, I go try to crank, and I get very slow crank and the starter motor is very hot on a full battery. Battery cables and brand new, along with ground strap. The Batt + cable also gets pretty hot after trying to crank.

 

Figured it out. My timing was too far advanced and it was causing too much resistance. I retarded the timing until the starter had a healthy crank, and I have gotten it to fire with the mechanical fuel pump hooked up. (I didn't realize there was a mounting plate on my old block for the mech. pump--D'oh!)

It hasn't gotten to where it will idle yet, but I am very close! With some fine tuning and some adjustments, I should be on the road in no time. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions and for all the great info! I have learned a lot getting to this point :-P