Hey guys,

A friend of mine who I based my 350 engine build on (He's got an 84 Hurst Olds-Cutlass), has a chance to pick up a World Products 400 short block for under $800.000 (not an old Re-built 400). He wants to re-use his heads and cam but I don't know if they'd be a good combo or not so I figured I would ask here to maybe give him some advice.

The shortblock has 10:1 pistons, scat Forged Rotating assembly, and has been sitting in the guys garage for a little more than a year.

The cam and heads he wants to re-use are a Lunati Voodoo Cam and the heads are World Sportsman II heads. The heads are not modified in any way, they are "out of the box".

Any input you engine guru's could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Cylinder Head, Sportsman II, Cast Iron, Assembled, 64cc Chamber, 200cc Intake, Chevy, 302, 327, 350, 400, Each

Cam is Lunati 60121:

Cam Style:Hydraulic roller tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,800-5,800
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:219
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:227
Duration at 050 inch Lift:219 int./227 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:270
Advertised Exhaust Duration:278
Advertised Duration:270 int./278 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.515 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.530 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.515 int./0.530 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):112
Computer-Controlled Compatible:Yes
Grind Number:VDSC-270

 

If he's not racing then the cam will be just fine. If he's actively racing, the cam is a poor choice. The heads are honestly not that great either, but they're a hell of a lot better than stockers.

 

The car is just a street car, he may take it to the track to see what it'll do, but he doesn't race it, more of show car than anything. He just wanted to re-use his cam and heads.

 

Sounds like there's not alot of room left for "input"... it's a done deal, as I'm seeing it?

About all the "input" we can offer from out here is, recommending attention to detail and good assembly practices and such as that.

 

If he gets the short block. He hasn't bought it yet. It came built and he's wondering if his current heads and can will work for it. With that short block Sofa, what would you recommend for heads and cam?

--Edit--

To clarify, his neighbor has the short block but decided to try an LS build for his track car. So he's got a short block for sale and my friend wanted to know how well his heads and cam would work with it.

 

More cam to bleed some dynamic compression off. Baby cam for a street 400. Go 231/239 or whatever voodoo they have near that

 

This is as close as they come that I can tell.

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 290/300
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 232/242
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .510/.525
LSA/ICL: 110/106
Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 2000-6500
Includes: Cam Only

 

He mentioned he's looking for 400-450hp and 500ft-lb of torque so I'll let him know that if he wants to get real performance out of it he'll need to go with a new cam and heads.

 

Ok, so what would be an ideal cam/head combo. I looked it up, according to the web site, the block is made to accept both roller and flat tappet cams.

Any suggestions?

 

I'd suggest, get the short block first; then go from there, once it's physically in his possession. Measure a few things and eliminate some uncertainties.

 

400 hp can easily do with current cam and may be close with those heads. 1 hp per inch sounds right. 450 needs abit more cam and ported sportsman heads or aftermarket heads with bit better port flow. There are alot of good choices available under 1400$

 

If you're going to do a new heads/cam combination - a custom camshaft profile is in order to maximize gains. Getting a shelf cam is like wearing a size 7 shoe and putting a size 10 on "because it fits". Why people continue to use shelf cams is BEYOND me. @.050 numbers don't tell you anything since that's only one measurement of the whole lobe. You can have two camshafts with identical specifications on the cam card and have two COMPLETELY different profiles.

 

What kind of money is he willing to spend for a head/cam swap.I think he has salable heads should he decide to change up to recover some of the costs for a better combo.

 

He just had his second baby, so his situation is changing is why he's contemplating using his current heads/cam.

 

Use them for now then, it should be torquey

 

Tell him to park the ride and enjoy his kids, they are only little once.

For 800$ the short block is not a bad deal.. In the meantime he can save up for better heads, etc.. Most of his disposable income right now should be devoted to diapers, etc. for the kids.

I never understood the rush / impulse to put together a "half done" project only to abandon it or revisit it later.

If he has a garage the car is not going anywhere,

Mine was parked for 3 years have to man up sometimes and put priorties in order.

 

His car is driveable now, he just called to tell me about it and was really excited at putting a 400 in his car. His wife is like mine though. We both started our car hobbies before we were married and she would never understand a car that was parked for years and years that wasn't done. Part of why I have to keep my car running. If I ever pulled the motor for an engine swap and left it for the winter, I think she kill me...or I'd come home and find the car gone to the junk yard. Women!

 

Running or not, it's a toy car, not the family Daily Driver.
Otherwise how do you restore a car at home ? if the purpose is a restoration then it is assumed that it will not be running for a period of time.

However most people have to budget their income, especially when they have a family.
Now she may just see it as "if it's not broken, why are you taking it apart?" or more to the point : "why are you spending money on the car?!"

either way, she would be correct. You have balance what you do...

 

My wife, right there!

Point 1, quickly followed by point 2...

And you're right, you have to be able to balance it.

My T/A is currently my daily driver because it has to be. I'm now looking for a winter car so I can park it and hopefully, spend a little less money on mine.

Well, except for the tranny rebuilt and new torque converter it needs this winter!

 

I dunno. There are so many off the shelf grinds that you'd be hard pressed not to find one that's damned close to what you need. Unless you have some sort of specific needs, or you get off on speccing your own cam, most of the time anything you come up with will be too close to an existing grind to be noticably better in a street car.

 

There's a lot to be gained in cam optimization. Why guess and hope for the best when you can get something built directly for your application - NOT using some generic master cam list? I'd rather have it perfect and spend a few dollars extra than buy a generic cam and hope it works as well as the last guy. What if I told you I guarantee 2 tenths minimum over any shelf cam you're using (while offering better characteristics all across the board)? People don't give enough credit to custom camshafts. It's part of what makes a real optimized combination.

 

Sure, "IF" you understand how to build Cams. Not knowing what to ask for in my opinion would be just as bad as asking a guy from a company to "build me one, here's what I want my motor to do."

 

There's plenty of guys that do custom camshafts for a living that are good at it. Those are the people that obviously take the guesswork out of "here's what I want, build it for me". All you have to do is provide the information and they build something for your unique specifications.. hense why they work so well (provided they've got a clue what they're doing).

The only homework you have to do as a consumer is figure out who actually does good work. It's no different than finding a quality machinist.

 

I hope you do know how much I respect you.But on this point for a street vehicle 406 a custom grind I don't think is worth the trouble.If I accept I tenths info(I do doubt that),most of the custom grinds are race only where it may change the peak HP at WOT.And those custom grind changes over shelf grinds are in the range of only 1 to 4%.At least that has been our findings.You take a 400 which has been on the market for yrs,surely you going to find a cam profile to fit you needs for the street.Now this last sentence I think makes logical sense.

 

I agree completely. That's the point I was trying to make in my last post. No matter what cam you spec for a street driven car, I guarantee that somebody already makes one that's within a couple degrees on the duration and 1 or 2 degrees on the LSA, and probably the same lift, since there's a limited number of grind profiles available.

If you've got some combo that needs something out of the norm, say a high rpm motor that needs a wider LSA than the normal street profiles, or a cylinder head that favors the exhaust, then sure, a custom profile will make a big difference, but for a tree-fiddy with "corvette" heads? There's already a million grinds for that. For a 400 street motor with aftermarket heads? A 228/238-ish cam on a 112 lsa is probably going to be in the "ballpark" and I'm willing to bet that there's enough off the shelf grinds in that range to beat back the entire Justin Bieber fan club.

 

Thats true, on a 450 hp street engine, most cams that are similar and close in spec should only vary 10 hp or so. Even within 10 deg duration swing, probably only 10-15 hp at peaks and a shift in lower end torque curve. Seen a few dyno tests like that, one longblock with various cams. Theres no magic number thats gonna be light years ahead of anything else out there for mild applications. Lower hp less critical cams are imo, but that said, i have always used customs since price wasnt much different lol and i like being different

Higher hp higher ve stuff, it gets more important to put valve event things in correct places.

 

I completely agree on this point:

We've got a poster who is asking about somebody else's motor, that they apparently don't even HAVE yet. The ACTUAL AS-BUILT DETAILS of this alleged motor are yet to be revealed to ANYONE involved: all we have to go on so far is basically some ad copy. Furthermore, the individual who is the subject of the post, would seem to be severely constrained in the wallet, and isn't interested in being "competitive", only in having a little fun.

I think a bunch of talk about ANY of this, but most especially about "custom" cams when there's nothing really "custom" about the rest of the setup, is a bit ... premature.

Let's hold off for now before arguing about a bunch of that, until the situation develops into something a little more concrete than the conjecture it is now.

 

On a turbo deal like yours,I can see and perfectly understand the logic of a custom grind.

 

Well i have used customs on na builds that may have worked fine with some shelf choices but i went the custom direction. Doing a real budget ls3 clone but plan on a custom due to my other builds have always used one of 2 grinders so i stay with them

 

Ok, a little more info. Yes, he's constrained in the wallet, but for $800 it seems like a good deal for a shortblock. The motor is now sitting because the guy that owns it went with an LS build for his 68 Camaro and is looking to sell it.

I already told my buddy his cam probably wouldn't work, he'd need a retrofit roller right?

It has a scat cast crank, forged I-beam rods, and speedpro flat-top pistons with 2 valve relief. He says they're supposed to be 10:1 but isn't sure, he didn't have the p/n of them.

Here is th block from summit's web site, total bore is 4.125", 3.75" stoke.

Brand: World Products Manufacturer's Part Number: 084030 Part Type: Engines, Bare Blocks Product Line: World Products Chevy Small Block Motown Blocks Summit Racing Part Number: WRL-084030

Main Journal Type: 400 mains Engine Block Style: Stock/OEM standard deck Deck Height (in): 9.025 in. Cylinder Bore as Shipped: 4.115 in. Maximum Cylinder Bore Diameter: 4.200 in. Engine Block Material: Cast iron Engine Block Weight (lbs): 190 lbs. Main Bolt Style: 4-bolt Main Caps Included: Yes Main Cap Material: Nodular iron Main Cap Fasteners Included: Yes Main Bearings Included: No Rear Main Seal Style: 2-piece Finished Cylinder Bores: No Raised Cam Location: No Cam Bearings Included: No Freeze Plugs Included: No


Anyway, after chatting with him about it, he seems to be waffling on it now, the deal was in his face but now that he's had a few days, I think he might be wavering on whether it's a good idea or not to buy it.

 

Flat tops in a 3.75" stroke motor is 11:1 in a 64cc head. Not good with iron heads and small cams. Ok with big cam and aluminum heads


If it really is a motown block then for 800 buy it!! That is a 2000$ block

 

Those dont come up for sale too often if he doesnt buy it someone else will.

 

I'm half tempted to have him buy it for me beause that's what I want to put in my car eventually. That way I can put T/A 6.6 on my hood bulge!

 

You're silly if either of you don't grab it. The block alone is worth grabbing up. Your next option is an SHP at $1400 plus shipping and handling.

1. Go to the bank
2. Get money
3. Smile like it's your birthday
4. Come home with a good deal

 

Don't buy anything until you inspect it, because it very well could be an $800 boat anchor.

Sitting in a garage for over a year in what sort of condition? on are stand in a bag? or laying on the floor uncovered? with the cylinder tops all rusted up from improper storage?


If the deck, cylinder tops, and pistons look OK
ask the seller to pull the oil pan so you can inspect the oil, crank, & bearings.

If he hesitates.. walk make it run away from this deal.

you can also offer a 50% deposit with the balance to be paid after you get it magnafluxed.

 

And take into account that buying anything used is a huge gamble.. I've seen more people burned than come out ahead. I agree that you can never be too careful. $800 is $800,heh. Obviously Exercise caution because a deal like that may be trashed like mentioned.. Hence "great deal". Then again, you may just find a diamond... Won't know till you look.

 

Well we certainly have created a customer base selling very good used parts over the yrs.Guys come back to us over the yrs because after we inspect the stuff,they get very good sound parts at a reasonable price.And I know of a number of other business just like us.A private person??.Well depends on how deep experienced that person is.

Like some of the guys on here I would have no problem buying from them because they have shown they know what they are doing.

 

not the best case scenario buying a motor you have not heard run... When I sold my 383 it was still in the car, when the buyer heard it fire up and run he knew it was a good engine.

proceed with caution

 

GET THE THING IN YOUR HAND.

Until that is done, all the rest is just idle speculation and loafing the donkey. (well maybe not... maybe, just choking the chicken, or even only just buffing the bishop)

Sure, for $800, it's a PHENOMENAL deal. Too good to be true.

One of 2 things is going on here:

Either the seller is REALLY DESPERATE, or...

There's more to it that is yet to be revealed.

Film at 11.

Not time to EVEN THINK ABOUT what parts to buy, LET ALONE buying parts, just yet.