just looking for a little input and advice. i have resesrched a lot the past few days and maybe I'm just overwhelmed with info and need direct advice. I have an 89 camaro stock 305 tbi. im looking to rebuild the motor, it is already pulled and ready to be torn down. I want to keep it simple and keep the tbi, looking to add a little power nothing crazy.. im thinking to have some work done to the heads then I'd like to add a nice cam if anybody has suggestions that work well with these? but also I've read a lot about how bad these heads are so any other suggestions are appreciated. now of course I'll also be doing the "ultimate tbi" add ons. headers, full exhaust

 

You'd be money ahead and power ahead by just buying a GM L31 crate engine and installing it. TBI can be modded and tuned to accomodate the added 45 cubes

 

It isn't the heads that are the problem - it's the bore size. When you enlarge the valves in the SBC heads, they can't flow around the valve due to cylinder wall location relative to the intake valve. The 305 SBC has a small bore. The Ford 302 has a 4" bore like a 350 SBC so it doesn't have these limitations. Unfortunately there's no easy way around this. That's why few bother rebuilding or modifying 305's. 350's are a dime a dozen in the junk yards and the cost to rebuild either is essentially the same. In fact the 350 may be cheaper just because they sell more of those parts. Supply and demand.

GD

 

Sell the 305 for scrap and get the 350. You cant go wrong whether its a new crate L31 or even if you rebuild a junkyard core. Put your TBI right over on it maybe get a chip burned and bigger injectors or just run more fuel pressure. Lots of info on here how to do it. Instant 75-100 more hp.

 

a small bit of advise, throw the 305 away.

 

Nothing wrong with a 305.

It's a great engine for a daily driver. Reliable as all get-out.

 

Don't spend a dime rebuilding a 305. Get a 350 crate engine and save yourself the regret, the time waiting on the machine shop, etc.

 

that's everybody's advice lol. 350 just isn't what I want for this car. think I'm just going to swap in an lt1 cam and springs. upgrade the tbi with 350 injectors, full exhaust from headers back, 3.42 gears and a tune. what kind of power do you think I will be looking at? 220? maybe more?

 

That's just silly. All that work will cost more than a basic 350 crate engine that will make a lot more power.

GD

 

220 HP with those sHi*t heads if you are lucky. Gona wish you had that 350 after its said and done

 

this is why I have struggled to find good advice or information. everyone's response is the same. im not looking for 400 hp. just a simple cruiser for the weekends and car meets and when the time is right my daughter will be able to drive it around in a few years

 

If you are happy with anemic then skip the Lt1 cam and re-ring it. Save you the headache of tuning. Full exhaust along with gears, torque converter, and shift kit will atleast make it feel alive.

 

is the lt1 cam worth it if i have someone willing and capable of helping with the tune?

 

No it's not worth it. If you just want to have fun and the 305 otherwise runs ok, do a reseal, timing chain set, valve stem seals, etc and just run it.

Change the torque converter to a 3000 stall, and put some 3.70 or 3.90 gears in the back.

All that engine work and tuning is just a huge headache for very little gain. The converter, and gearing will make a monumental change to the feel of the vehicle without wasting time on a 305 and tuning it.

If you want even more then invest in exhaust.

Those changes will still be there should you or your daughter choose to do a 350 later.

GD

 

A 305 with the mild upgrades you speak of will still fall short of an L98 or L31 and will cost more. A popular race shop around my area sells L31's for $1345. These guys are trying to save you time, money and disappointment. If set on the 305, I have some 081 TPI heads you can have for $50 and whatever the shipping would be.

 

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/carb...tions-lg4.html

Check out this thread for some good 305 advice, and ignore all the close-minded sheep firing off the same rhetoric about the 305.

 

The real question is why are you attracted to the idea of a 305 more than a 350?

What everyone is getting at is that there is pretty much no solid reason to chose a 305 over a 350. the bore size is the nail in the coffin. the stock heads are the second disaster for the 305. sure you could put nice heads on it but for your investment, you'd be so much better off putting nice heads on a 350 block. Even if you're not looking for 400hp you could still build a mild 350 with 250-330hp for the same price as the 305 and it would be a lot easier to do so. an l31 vortec engine out of a 96-00 GMC truck at the junkyard would be cheap and get you at 250hp without even touching the cam or heads. and when you do decide on modding the engine, the lt4 hot cam and some head work would make the l31 a monster.

The people on here always try to give the best possible advice and don't want to lead anyone in the wrong direction. Biting our tongues and telling you to put money into a 305 vs a 350 would be like buying a small soda at the movie theater when the large is only $.50 more.

 

ok. I get what you're saying. I do appreciate you guys giving me the best possible advice, I come to this site because y'all know more about these cars than anyone. im not "attracted" to the 305. eventually I will put a 350 in it. but for now it makes the most sense for me to keep the motor I have...i have decided to skip any head or cam swap and just go with a re ring all around, upgrade the tbi a bit, I've already purchased a set of hooker headers and will have a custom exhaust installed and currently looking for a 4th gen rear end to swap in and that will be all I'll invest into the 305. my next question is what's a good "re ring" kit to purchase for these? and would it make sense to purchase a master rebuild kit if the engine already runs pretty solid when it was pulled.

 

A friendly word of advice , firing off insults like "close-minded sheep" is a great way to get on the Mod's bad side here . One of the things that makes this site great is the fact that none of the name calling internet insult stuff that happens on other sites is tolerated here , as befitting a technical discussion site dealing with one of the best looking cars ever made . I know it's easy to get angry when folks denigrate the 305 especially since I see in your sig that you have one , but the bottom line is that there really is no good reason to leave the "extra" 45 cubes on the table if your gonna be doing major work on an engine . "Freshen up" and enjoy the 305 for what it is , oh yea by all means it'll do the job nicely . But start dumping all kinds of cash into high performance parts for it , when the 350 parts are both cheaper & more plentiful ? It just don't make good horsepower VS dollar sense to do that .

When in doubt , never forget that the magic formula for speed is ;

Speed = Cubic Inches X Cubic Dollars , Squared

 

Well if that's all it takes to trigger people here, then I just don't know, lol.

I would find it more insulting to attempt to make a thread asking a specific question and then being stonewalled by a bunch of people telling me how my views are all wrong and not really helping with the original problem.

 

Ok , fair enough , but the guy did ask for "rebuild" advice and then went on to mention wanting , , , of course , to chase the quest of just about anyone whose ever floored the gas on one of these cars ; "more power !" . Throwing a (properly fitted) set of rings , bearings , and gaskets at it will make a 305 daily driver reliable for quite some time . But then came that "more power" requirement , and in just about every case (except a super low mileage super clean "collectable" example , which the OP hasn't got) the first step toward more power involves a block replacement and the "more power" build commences from there .

 

I think we are getting off topic now. after the research and y'all input I've come to the decision to just re ring, tbi upgrade, headers and exhaust and rear end. the question is, if the motor ran pretty well when taken out should I bother with the whole "master rebuild" kit or just the re ring kit? and what's the brand I should be looking for. thanks

 

Mine (LB9) has 160k on it, sat in field for 11 years, and has 190 psi on every cylinder and after valve stem seals uses no measurable oil. I wouldn't bother with a re-ring. Just gaskets, timing set, etc. If you decide to ring it, DO NOT hone the cylinders. Just use standard cast/ductile iron or moly rings, a good break in oil, and run it hard (cylinder pressure seats rings).

GD

 

Do a compression test on the motor, see what the numbers look like, and go from there. If the numbers are good, no need to yank it.

 

Don't spend a dime rebuilding a 305. Get a 350 crate engine and save yourself the regret, the time waiting on the machine shop, etc.

It's not stonewalling, or 305 bashing, it's experience and unclouded judgement. If the 305 ran decent, why was it removed? If the plan involves "eventually" putting in a 350, why go to all the work to remove and replace the engine with the same engine? Why put any money or effort into a half-***, band-aid rebuild when that investment could go into something better and more practical?

Which is more plausible, we all just decided to be dicks, or we've been there/done that and would not recommend it to anyone else?

 

Maybe its a situation similar to mine, where the 305 is old and worn but he can't afford a complete engine swap, especially a brand new crate motor.

What kind of crate motor would you recommend that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg above doing a simple rebuild of a 305? Some of us are poor here,

 

Most people with the "simple rebuild" idea go to summitracing.com, find the cheeeeeeeeepest "kit" they offer, and think that's gonna be the total cost.

NOTHING could be farther from the truth.

That doesn't include ANYTHING about the heads, which even for just a cheeeeeeeeep corner parts store job is gonna be $400. Doesn't include machine work (cleanup, bore, hone, work the crank) which will ALMOST CERTAINLY top $600. Doesn't include fluids. Doesn't include all the "mightaswells" that always seem to pop up... water pump, belts, hoses, paint, build lube, motor mounts, misc [mr spock]sen-sores[/mr spock], ignition parts, injectors, cam, the list just goes ON and ON.

Then if anything major is getting changed at the same time, say EFI to carb, a carb is $400ish, a distributor is $100ish, a FPR is $150ish, and ya gotta do something about fuel pump and converter lockup. If anything breaks along the way, like say an electrical connector or part crumbles to dust, cha-ching. cha-ching. cha-ching.

How about headers and exhaust? Transmission work? Gears?

Not hard to see, that "kit" is just A DROP IN THE BUCKET. By the time the typical "simple rebuild" is done, there'll be over $2500 worth of receipts in the stack.

Now... the REALLY BAD thing about doing all this to a 305 is, it costs the same TO THE PENNY as doing it to a 350. Only difference is, you get AT LEAST 20% MORE for the same $$$ if you do it to a 350. All ya gotta do first is, come up with a 350 core. And that's certainly not hard to do, nor is it $$$... CERTAINLY won't increase the total project cost by 20%.

And in a nutshell, THAT'S why it's a BAD idea to "rebuild" a 305. You spend the same as a 350, but in the end have 20% less than the guy in the lane next to you that spent TO THE PENNY the same as you but spent it on a 350 instead.

DON'T "rebuild" a 305. You WILL regret it when you're done. You might not think so now; you might think you're gonna be "different" somehow; you might think that 305 is "all you'll ever want"; but I WILL GUARANTEE YOU, you'll be sorry you did. All the protests to the contrary NOW, BEFORE you know the outcome, won't change that fact, won't put the money back in your bank account, and won't change how slow your car STILL IS compared to what IT COULD BE if you had only spent your $$$$$ more wisely.

"Crate" merely means that you buy it in one big chunk instead of a pile of individual bits, and you don't even get to see what's inside let alone have any control over the process. Cost is pretty much the same in the end. And for that matter, the same for a "crate" 350, as a "simple rebuild" for a 305, of the same level of finesse and whatnot.

 

Dang. Hostile responses. The guy wants to freshen up his 305 and the 350 gurus go bonkers.

Fear not. I own an 89 TA, TPI with a 305. Have owned it for 18 years, today, it's still my daily driver with 400k plus on the motor. Many years ago I faced....and ignored this same dialog.

At ~200k, I wanted to freashen my engine, back to stock. Read all the arguments here and made my choice.

I went stock, motor stripped, cleaned, new seals, honed, re-ringed....the simple stuff.

Instantly knew I'd made the right decision. Another 200k miles and it still runs like a top, doesn't smoke and still gets 22 miles per gallon.

Just sayin.

 

And yes, I did all the work myself.

 

"want to keep it simple and keep the tbi, looking to add a little power nothing crazy.. im thinking to have some work done to the heads then I'd like to add a nice cam if anybody has suggestions that work well with these?"

The preceding are his words. Don't think anyone is hating, he said he wants more power, not a stock rebuild. Easiest way to add power to the LO3 is to replace it with something else. By the time he's done spending money he'll be beyond price and short the power of a 350. Your scenario is different from his.

 

Zackly:

There's a YUUUUJJJJJE difference between "I did it and it worked well for me", and "you should do it". One of the biggest elephants in the room is cognitive dissonance aka "buyer's remorse"... it's REAL tough for anyone to admit they spent their money unwisely, which makes "positive" testimonials about questionable choices extra suspicious.

Don't waste money on a 305, you WILL regret it. Yeah you might make it better than it was; but compared to what it COULD BE had better choices been made, ... that 305 will LOSE, every time. $$$ for $$$.

 

Where can you get a 350 in a "refreshed" (or better) state for cheaper than refreshing the 305?

 

Well, when you consider that going through the block and heads on a 305 is likely to crack at least $1,500 at the local machine shop...

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fme-350g8795/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12681430/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12681429/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-12530282/

There are better prices out there on these options if a person looks...

 

If you are really dead-set on the 305, then read about what Ja85z28 did to his LG4.
Not in chronological order.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/auto...onversion.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/auto...8-5-speed.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/exha...st-system.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...ideo-link.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...-aerohead.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...appet-cam.html
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tech...appet-cam.html

 

I get it if the 305 needs WORK, but just a BASIC refresh vs buying a 350 there's a price gap you are all ignoring.

 

Any deeper than valve stem seals or maybe a light head gasket failure and it's time for a 350. If you have a good running 305 and it just need freshened up with some gaskets, seals, and a timing set - go for it. If it needs rings or other major work... or really anything that requires it be pulled out of the car - I would be looking for a 350 to rebuild and drive it in the meantime if possible.

GD

 

Wouldn't that also be true of those who spent money on a 350 upgrade, when all they wanted was a fresh 305? Are they not likely to hesitate to stop forward and admit, "I spent more than I needed to"?

Or is buyers remorse a reserved for engine builds under 349 c.i?

 

What do you consider a "BASIC refresh"? Slapping in some new bearings, running a parts store hone through the cylinders, new rings and gaskets? You're still talking about dropping about $600 at the machine shop for that kind of band-aid. That assumes you don't touch the heads or cut any metal.

When you start talking about replacing valve guides, valve seats, new valves, milling, boring, cutting cranks, line honing, balancing, reconditioning rods, replacing pistons, money goes REALLY fast. Then you have to decide are you going to bolt in that engine with all the greasy tin, and 150k mile accessories and brackets, or are you going to take the time to clean and paint everything so it looks nice instead of like junk... Might as well replace the starter and water pump, no point in bolting the old stuff on just so it can fail next week... New starter, might as well get a new flex plate. You know, while it's out I think it'd be a good time for some fresh motor mounts...

There's no way in hell, I'd do that much work just to put a band-aid'ed 305 back in a car.

 

Might as well do a 383 then. 350 is a waste at that point.

 

Yes .


Yep , once that "more power" requirement got added into the mix , there is no replacement for displacement ....

 

Then you have to take into consideration what other things you want to have to change and beef up. A good running 305 will destroy every piece of the driveline in these cars and then some.

 

did you mean to say 305?

 

Certainly did!!!

The cammed Vortec 305 in my brothers 1999 Tahoe has already claimed the G80 in the 8.5" 10-bolt and the 4L60E is starting to slip at higher rpm. The F-car stuff is even weaker.

 

oh when you said "good running" I figured you just meant a healthy stock 305 lol.

The whole drivetrain of these cars was pretty much made to only handle a 305/ weak 350. Any added power and things start to break and bodies start to twist lol

 

I have ZERO doubts a G92 LB9 230 hp 305 could destroy a stock rear-end or 5spd with an abusive driver.

 

The first 4 or 5 T-5s I tore up in my car, and the first rear, were with the basically stock 305. (L69)

So, yeah...

It's not so much the number "350" as such. What it is, is that there are SO MANY of that size motor in the world, and they are SO CHEEEEEEEEEEEP and SO EEEEEEEEEEEEEZY to come by, that it makes no sense whatsoever to build any of the SBCs that are smaller. Furthermore, some 350-specific parts such as pistons, are often EVEN CHEEEEEEEEEPER than the otherwise exact same part for 305, simply because they sell in such higher volume.

There are technical reasons why the 3.736" bore of the 305 is VASTLY inferior to the 4.000" of the 350; i.e. why even if you could take a 305 block and somehow make it have 350 CID, it would STILL underperform the 350; but the same things could be said about the difference between a 4" bore and a 4.125" (400) bore. But that's only half of the equation. The other half, or maybe more, is that PRICE factor. Why plunk down $2500, OR WHATEVER, rebuilding a 305, when you can plunk down the EXACT SAME PILE and have a 350 instead? Would you go to the grocery store and pay $10 for 13 oz of steak when for the same $10 you can have a pound of the exact same steak off of the same part of the same cow except thicker, just for the asking? That's EXACTLY the concept in effect here. It's not about "pound" as such, like, you should always buy your steak only in 1-pound quantities; it's about $10 for a pound vs $10 for 13/16 of a pound.

This is just not that hard to figure out.