Hi all. I have a 92 camaro rs with a 350 swap. I've been daily driving the car for the last four months and it's been lovely. It died while driving home from work and has not started since. Car is getting fuel and was getting spark, still would not start. Was popping but didn't make any effort to run. Suspected ignition issue or timing chain jumped a tooth. Rotor still spins and get oil pressure while cranking.

I've replaced cap and rotor, no change, still occasional popping while Goosing throttle but no actual attempt to fire. Next I replaced my distributor ignition module, car made some promising noises but then my battery finally died after two days of troubleshooting.

On to the second, new issue;
Now after charging battery, lost all guages and all the lights that used to come on when you would set the key to run. Aftermarket Radio still works, all interior and Guage lights work, but no security or seat belt or handbrake or ses light comes on anymore when attempting to start. Car still cranks. Please help, as I said there is good fueling and I'm almost certian there is spark, will check tommorow. Biggest issue now is dead lights. All fuses are good, double checked. Haven't checked two 30 Amp breakers in fuse box yet, will tommorow.

Suspected it could be a fusible link somewhere.

 

Is the ECM/Fuel Pump fuse under the hood intact? There should be three fusible links. Are they intact?

AMENDMENT: It may also be helpful to align the timing marks (approximately) and remove the distributor cap. If the rotor is not approximately aligned with the post for the #1 or #6 spark plug, the timing chain may have slippped/jumped. With a typical SBC timing set, one tooth is about 16° of spark timing.

 

If you absolutely, 100% have spark and fuel - then the cause of the no-start is not wiring related.

You either DO NOT have fuel or spark - which is probably a wiring issue or failed external component like a fuel pump, ignition module, etc.

Or you DO have fuel and spark - which is going to be a mechanical issue of some kind.

You NEED to answer this question first so you can narrow your search.

What exactly are we working on here? You say "350 swap" as if we are supposed to know what that means - the size of the engine is largely irrelevant - what fuel system and ignition system are you running? Did Cletus and his cousin Skillet rip out the fuel injection and slap an Elderbrock and an MSD box on this car along with a clapped 1978 half-ton truck 350? Or is it TBI/TPI still?

GD

 

Hey all. All fusible links have been replaced as of today, all fuel pump stuff is working well and all of my fuses under hood and in fuse box is working. All of my dash lights are now working again, suspected to be a tripped breaker or something but it's all working like it should now.

Car is running stock tbi throttle body with I believe an aftermarket chip to make it work with the 350. And an Edelbrock Performer TBI intake that came on the car. It is a truck motor from almost certainly 1990 350 c/k 20. It has a pickup distributor from either the truck or camaro which plugs into stock connectors.

as of now, I am getting good strong spark, and good fueling, and after replacing ignition module and cap and rotor and coolant temp sensor still no start. Car does exactly what is has been doing the whole time with occasional spitting when cranking and goosing the throttle but no actual attempt to fire to run.

I was looking at my rotor while rolling the crankshaft back and forth, and there is definitely some slack in the timing assembly because after spinning clockwise or counterclockwise I can rotate the crank in the other direction about 30 degrees before the rotor starts to move. When motor is at TDC mark, the rotor points more towards cylinder 3 than one.

Thanks, josh

 

Please confirm that there is a 100% connection from the battery terminal negative to the cylinder-block.

Not battery negative to chassis... but to the actual cylinder block!

Sometimes the smaller ground straps will be enough to power on low amperage circuits... but not the high amperage circuits, due to the main ground connection to the cylinder-block being interrupted.

 

Will check right now. I've got two chassis grounds from negative battery cable and one that is at least attached to block but I will make sure now

 

^^^ This ^^^

Although, that won't cause a no-start; rather, a no-crank. (or very-slow-crank, or small-black-wires-begin-to-smoke-crank)

Sorry I misidentified your partial VIN there: I guess I can't count. Yet another problem with "codes". But it makes no difference in this case since it's not material to the issue at hand.

if the timing mark is aligned, and the rotor is pointing to #3, then the motor is probably at the #6 firing instance of #1 TDC, rather than the #1 firing one. (they alternate) It should in fact be past #6 at that point, so it's not really where it needs to be, regardless.

Find #1 compression by removing the spark plug, disconnecting both of the pink/white plugs from the ign coil, and having your assistant BUMP the motor over in small BUMPS (not "whirl") until you feel compression start to come out of #1. Have them continue to slowly, in small increments with time in between, BUMP the starter until the mark on the crank is just approaching the timing tab. At that point the rotor should be pointing to #1, which SHOULD be the one almost straight ahead but slightly to the driver's side. That is, there should be 2 terminals toward the front of the dist, one to the driver's side and one to the pass side; the DS one should be #1 and the pass side one should be #8, the next one after #1 in the firing order. The motor will run just fine if some other one is #1, as long as the plug wires match and are in the right order; just, having them ordered as I described, which is the factory layout, allows them to lay down in there the most neatly. Only 2 will have to cross from one side of the dist to the other side of the motor (#3 & #2), and both of those can go behind the dist rather than in front of it, and thus stay out of the way of the air cleaner or whatever else.

Verify that the rotor & wires are oriented this way. Then, if you made any changes to any of that, and hooked the pink & white harnesses back up, and completely reassembled it, and it still doesn't run, disconnect all that again, and watch the rotor while your assistant whirls the motor over. Verify that the dist moves smoothly, and that when the timing mark comes back around, that it points the same way again. (or exactly 180° from there) If the dist does NOT move smoothly, or if this leaves it NOT pointing at #1 again (or #6 which is the one 180° away), then you need a timing set.

 

When you say its getting fuel are you confirming fuel is spraying out of the injectors or that you hear the fuel pump?

 

I've decided it's almost certainly timing set stuff, as nothing else resolves the issue, and if it isn't the only bad that comes out of it is a new timing set, which is most likely wanted anyway.

 

Yeah replacing the timing set isn't too bad of a job or too $$$ as long as you don't come across too many "might as well"s. And of course, if you can avoid installing a leak where the timing cover meets the oil pan. The "might as well" thing really does apply here: good time for new water pump, radiator maybe, hoses etc., belt(s), and so on. It can snowball in a hurry in an old car.

Most sets that you can buy nowadays though, don't have the phenolic gear teeth, thank goodness. Although, it somebody put a cheeeeeeeeep "truck roller" set in it, it might have "stretched" enough to screw up. Who knows. I guess you'll find out. Just put back either a normal stock-style LinkBelt chain, or a GOOD roller. NOT a $25 "roller", because those are NOT rollers, they are bushings, and they SUCK. Which set you need depends on what cam is in it. If it's a flat-tappet, it needs the older (less $$$) style; if it's the newer one for factory roller cams, the bolt circle is smaller, it costs more, and there are fewer choices generally.

 

A stretched timing set will still allow the car to start and run. Not great but still run.

 

I had misread the post...
I had thought the issue was a "No Crank" condition.

My apologies.

 

My plan is to go with the double roller set offered at vip, hopefully it is decent quality

 

Don't know what vip is.

Better to buy one that you KNOW is decent quality. "Hope" is a very poor business plan.

I can tell you though, if it's a "double roller" and costs less than around $50, it's NOT a "roller" AT ALL. It's the bushing aka "truck roller" garbage.

 

Being a flat-tappet truck motor - This Cloyes set should do the job:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1100

$40

GD

 

I can add to that, and state that if it is a double-width roller, whether it's a full-roller (bushed) or not, it won't have the strength of an inverted link chain, but would probably cost you just as much, maybe more than a good set. If you want to get really good at changing timing chains, go with the twin-bicycle (35-2) chain. If you only want to do it once, consider something different. They used to be all the rage, back when everyone needed an "EL-duh-brock" intake and the biggest doorstop, err, Holley to feed their monster running a "full-race" cam, Mallory dual-point dizzy with no advance, and rusty Hooker headers - Whatever all that was, just so they could make the most noise during their "blazing" 16-second runs.

Measure twice, cut once. In other words, a little research will go a long way.

2¢

 

Hello all. Today I got the timing cover off, and while my timing chain is very stretched, it doesn't appear to have jumped a tooth, and everything lines up at TDC with a small amount of variance from the stretch.

Firstly, anyone think that stretch with no tooth jumping would be enough to make my car no longer run if it still is somewhat in alignment? If not, any suggestions for my car dying like it did while cruising and not making any real effort to start afterword? I have solid spark and fuel and everything is turning as I would expect it to, no fluids burning or overheating.

Second, I need some clarification for dizzy set up. If the motor is at TDC compression stroke for #1 cylinder, the timing marks should be sitting both at 12 o clock correct? When oriented like this, rotor points at #1 cylinder and that's where I start my firing order when putting wires back on dizzy correct?

Thirdly, suggestions for getting timing gear off of crank or back on?

Fourth, is the duralast double roller set from autozone (the one I have) that was 40 dollars worth installing, or should I buy the cloyes one linked in the previous posts? Keep in mind the car is needed as a daily right now and I don't have it which is why this is so pressing.

 

I also have a cloyes web style chain that I could install onto what's in there instead of installing the duralast double roller I got from autozone

 

Since AutoZone seems to have a fairly liberal return policy, I would be tempted to exercise that and put on an inverted link (silent) chain,



or LT1-style RC-80+ HD roller.


According to Cloyes, the 9-3157 (single HD roller) is the strongest set they offer. Little wonder GM chose that design after the era of plastic teeth finally ended.

 

No, at least not if that's all that's wrong. However......

....if that component is worn, it's highly likely that all the engine's parts are worn, possibly severely. I've seen instances where rings and valves were so worn that the engine couldn't produce enough compression to start and run. Rare, I'll admit, but I've seen it.

Have you performed a compression test?

An engine requires 4 things in order to run; fuel, air, compression, and on-time spark. If your engine won't run, it is lacking one or more of the four.


At #1 TDC, the timing mark on the balancer will be lined-up with the '0' mark on the timing tag. The rotor's position will then be pointed to the plug wire for cylinder #1. The remaining wires go clockwise, looking down on the distributor cap, following the engine's firing order, 18436572.

You'll need to buy/rent/borrow a gear puller to remove the gear, and a short piece of pipe that will fit over the crank snout/key to tap on the new one.

I can't offer an opinion on Duralast timing sets, but have used Cloyes products for 50+ years; they make good stuff.

 

Be aware that there are 2 times during a complete engine cycle when the timing mark lines up. Both are #1 TDC, but ONLY ! is firing. The other is when the piston comes to the top at the end of the exhaust stroke and beginning of the intake stroke. The other is #6 firing.

When you put the new timing set in, you'll have the crank sprocket set with its mark straight up; the keyway should point to exactly 1:30, that is, straight up at the center of the #1 cyl. You will turn the cam to where the mark on its sprocket is at exactly 6:00, straight down; this makes alignment very easy to see.

HOWEVER, this is NOT #1 firing!!!! It is THE OTHER instance of #1 TDC, which happens to be #6 firing. #1 & #6 pistons move exactly together, as do #8 & #5, and #4 & #7, and #3 & #2. Note that these pairs are all 4 cyls apart in the firing order 18436572. We build motors at this position because it is easiest to get the alignment right, NOT because it is #1 firing.

Once the correct assembly has been accomplished, turn the crank exactly one full revolution. The mark on the crank sprocket will be back to exactly 12:00 (straight up) and #1 & #6 will be back to TDC, but the mark on the cam sprocket will now ALSO be at 12:00. THIS is #1 firing.

Once you reach that point, we'll go through how to align the rest of the motor's internals so that you can drop the dist in at the correct orientation with the #1 plug wire terminal in the right place, and the motor will also then start for you on the very first try GUARANTEED. I would recommend aligning the motor as described and waiting to tighten the crank damper bolt until AFTER the dist is installed, so that there will be (a) no error, and (b) minimum work required. I think you'll agree, a procedure giving ZERO chance of error combined with minimum effort is A Good Thing.

 

[QUOTE=ironwill;6410211]

....if that component is worn, it's highly likely that all the engine's parts are worn, possibly severely. I've seen instances where rings and valves were so worn that the engine couldn't produce enough compression to start and run. Rare, I'll admit, but I've seen it. /QUOTE]

The car just shut off like something broke, and refused to start afterword. The only thing I can think that would cause that is the computer moving timing severely, or the distributor slipped and spun in its hole. It was very sudden from running well to nothing.

Currently fighting with the old paper gaskets on the timing cover that refuse to come off. New duralast timing set installed and nice and tight, just trying to get the cover back on now. Will keep updating after I get back to a spot where I am holding oil again.

 

Before you try and fire it off again, pull the spark plugs out and make sure they aren't oil fouled or soaked with gas. Either one will keep the car from running, even if you have fuel and spark.
Also take a good look at the plug wires and make sure they're in good shape.

 

Are you sure fuel is spraying from injectors or are you just hearing the fuel pump running? Your problem is not the timing set.

 

I had similar issues with a hard start , and I thought my fuel pump was good. After changing just about everything under the hood . I decided to change the fuel pump and the car has been running ever since. I think I am close to 1000 miles after fuel pump replacement. I would also look at changing the injectors. I got a set for 160 .

 

Fuel system is verified to work and checked with carb clean. I am going to be replacing spark plugs and the leads are almost brand new.

Going to fully assemble and then try and start with new plugs and distributor order checked. Will update as we get there.

Again, suggestions for the cause of this issue must be spark or timing related, as fuel system is checked. Is there possibly a fuse for the ignition switch or maybe a fusible link that could have burnt out. I replaced all fusible links at the starter already.
Cheers, josh

 

How do you know you have spark? And where are you checking for it? Will the engine run for a few seconds on a shot of starting fluid?

 

Is the car now a carb or does it still have efi?

 

I figured it out! I've replaced almost everything. Today I checked spark again and it was inconsistent and not in any way strong or regular.

I bought a replacement coil, test fit, and it fired right up like nothing happened! Happiest man alive!

It was the oem stock coil that had been there for years, and it explains everything that was happening.

But the car is back to life now. Just need to figure out how to prime oil pump. Thank you all for the help, much love, Josh!

 

What's with this talk of figuring out how to prime the oil pump ?????

If the engine has started and run for more than about a couple of seconds the oil pump had damned well already be plenty primed !

 

I only let it pop a few times and turned the key off. Got it primed and it all is working great, car is misfiring a little more than before but probably a combination of worn out valve seals and vac leaks and badly adjusted valves, maybe some timing in there.

Has always missed lightly when cold. Car is a project and is most likely going to stay that way for a while.
Cheers, Josh