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Tech / General EngineIs your car making a strange sound or won't start? Thinking of adding power with a new combination? Need other technical information or engine specific advice? Don't see another board for your problem? Post it here!
My Name is Jannik and i came form Germany. Sorry in advance for my bumpy english.
For many Years i worked on cars in my shop and always dreamed of a American V8 Car.
now after saving Money for years i could get my Hands on this 86 Camaro Iroc "Rebuild"
It was a Project Car and allegedly a complete Rebuild ( Engine complete overhaul , body repaired and welded, new paint etc.)
Owner was giving up because no one could find a bug on the engine, everything new ( incl. ECM, Sensors etc) but engine light on, sputtering, rough idle, exhaust smoking)
after a couple of Days i found out that the MAF Connector was faulty , now it was running better ( no light on dash , smoth idle) but not peferct
Because the car was not driven for many years i startet to investigate....new ingition system plus wires and plugs, Fuelpump new and new injectors
For me it was unkown in what state the engine was , wich parts or mods installed , or i was lied on and engine internals are JUNK
So after long thinking i ripped that thing open and was horryfied because i dismanteld a perfectely build Engine whit even new pistons. Pity about the Gasket parts but now i know what im on.
NOW to my Question
Since it is open anyway i wand to know if they had done any mods to the cam stuff or worst case trown in the (Peanut cam) in that case i want to Update to a Setup that seems more "normal" for a 305.
I dont want to push Big HP out of it i want simply " unpeanut" it so lets say from 190 hp stock to 215hp ish
to my Setup:
86 camaro 305 TPI ( engine not original may be "thrown togehter" wit various parts.)
Block has a hydr. Flat taped cam
TPI is a MAF system whit de 9th injector
Heads are iron whit 4bolt style covers (no center)
Injectors are Stock size
Sems stock exept upgradet "short headers" block huggers ? and "dynaflow? " exhaust system
1. is there a way to identify the cam ?
2. what setup would be appropriate ? small amount more hp but smoth idle, normal vacuum and Computer compatible , roller or flat ?
would prefer to stick to the parts i alredy have ( rockers , springs, lifters) IF that makes sense in any way
thank u all in advance
Greetings from a german Camaro Fanboy
You can pull the valve covers and check the casting on your heads see what they came from.
The only way to identify the cam is to pull it and see what part number is on the end.
Roller cams are better, smoother, flatter power curves and more reliable. But you will not be able to keep your springs and maybe rockers.
Take lots of pictures and post them we can probably help you identify things
Sounds like you have already torn the motor down? In that case, if you have not already removed the timing gear off of the front on the camshaft, do that and look for some numbers and/or letters. Sometimes there are also markings between the lobes. If you find any, take photos and post them up and we may be able to identify for you. If the cam is out, you could also measure the lobe lift with a caliper. That would tell you if it’s a peanut cam.
I agree that if the motor is already apart, putting it back together with a little better cam would be a good idea. I would not put the peanut cam back in. At least the L69 cam, but probably a little bigger.
Don't know if this applies to what you're experiencing, but some 86s came with a bugged prom that caused some drivability problems. If the chip is the original chip like I had in my 86, then that could be your problem - once I replaced mine with an 88 EPROM, it fixed most of the issues I was experiencing. Either the 1987 or the 1988 305 EPROM will work in the 86 305 computer, but you’ll get the benefit of an extra year of GM engineers working on drivability issues with the 1988 EPROM - if you can find one. Just an FYI - while the computers are the same for 86 – 89 Camaro and Firebirds, in 89 the cold start injector was removed and EPROM was updated so the regular injectors provided the "cold start". Also VATS (vehicle anti theft system) was introduced as standard equipment on the 89 Camaros and Firebirds and an option on Firebirds in 1988. If not for VATS, the 89 chip could have been interchangeable. However, since the 89 Camaros (and some 88 Firebirds) do have VATS and a non VATS car will not crank with a VATS chip, the 88 is the latest plug and play chip for your 86 computer.
There used to be a listing of all the EPROMS for the different year cars in FAQ section on this site, but looks like it's gone - or moved as the link I saved no longer works. I couldn't find the 3.23 geared 87 EPROM with a quick search, but the part numbers I could find are in bold,
87 5.0-F A/Trans(MD8) Fed, 2.73(GU2) 16068515 8517ABUN 88 5.0-F A/Trans(M39) Fed, 2.73(GU2) 16082173 2174AKFM 88 5.0-F A/Trans(M39) Fed, 3.23(GU5) 16082183 2184AKFP
This link is about a year old, but a member listed an 88 2.73 gear EPROM if that's what gears you have - might be worth seeing if he still has it and if he's willing to ship it to you. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/engi...-thirdgen.html
I swapped out a number of cams in 305s back in the 80s and 90s and even a few here lately. If you go with a cam swap, below is a list of cams and part numbers that will work with the stock computer and valve springs. While all are relatively mild, I put them in order where the top one will pull a little more vacuum that the bottom one (stock-like idle to more performance idle). There won't be a lot of difference in the performance between any of the cams listed. You'll see a little bit of power comparing the bottom ones to the top ones, but the ones near the bottom of the list will require an adjustable fuel pressure regulator so you can "tune it" (along with the base timing) without HAVING to go with a custom chip. I bolded the ones that I have installed and know to work well in a 305, but included a number of other cams and part numbers so you could check availability/shipping for them. Anything within the range of cams listed below should work well for you and provide a noticeable increase in power over the stock cam.
Because Engine is still in the car i was afraid cam shaft cant be pulled with Radiator in the way.In that case i think i pull the engine out. In addition i have no Tool to remove the Crankpulley/ Balancer ( Should probably buy one by now)
I had the Idea to simply measure te lift on hydraulik Tappets while turn Engine by Hand whit a Calliper to verify peanut or not.
if its a Peanut it goes right out in the bin, if not may be stick whit it
Chip was swapped a while ago ( out of a 350) for testing but no improvement. But i keep that in mind to check another one.
will take Photos, where are the stamps on heads and block you need ?
Last edited by SlowAndSteady; 03-01-2022 at 07:14 AM.
Well, if the motor is still in the car and only the intake and one head are pulled, that's a lot more work to do a cam swap. You can swap the camshaft with the motor in the car. Radiator and A/C condenser has to come out. I would do that over pulling the motor, but it's still a lot of work for a cam that's only mildly better than stock. I swapped the peanut cam for a 305HO (Summit Racing cam with very similar specs) on my 86' Iroc with the motor still in the car many years ago. It did make a difference, but I don't think it was worth it.
Yes, you will need a tool for removing the balancer.
You can measure the lobe lift by turning the engine over, but a magnetic base dial indicator would be the better tool for that. A caliper isn't going to give a very accurate measurement in that application.
The casting numbers on the heads you need to take off a valve cover and you'll see them. For the block, on the passenger side rear right behind the cylinder head there will be casting numbers and 5.0 or 5.7 should be cast into the block. Since you have a head off, you could also measure the diameter of a bore with your caliper. A 305 would have a 3.76" bore and a 350 would have a 4.00" bore.
416 heads are factory between 81-86 on 305s so that is correct. To get valve lift you need lift x rocker ratio. Factory rockers are 1.5 so 0.366 and 0.354 I think the factory LG4 cam is .350 lift intake .385 lift exhaust
I would say it's probably a peanut cam. There's a margin of error in the lift measurement (especially if using a caliper and not a dial indicator), so close enough for this purpose.
416 heads are decent. Nothing special, but not terrible.
The block numbers are the stampings that tell you what configuration the motor came when it was built and the VIN of the car it came in. If it matches your VIN, then you know at least it was the original engine block. Look at the casting numbers on the opposite corner of the block (driver's side rear). Also, measure one of the cylinder bores. That will tell you if it's a 305 or 350. It's probably a 305, but it could be a 350 with 305 heads. Best to verify.
okay
checked bore Diameter ... . roughly 3.7 ...ok
checked code on Block DDA matches to a 305 TPI LB9 from 86 ...... Car Vin does not match ....but this is no Problem for me.Better a good Engine than an original and bad one.
yeah i agree with you, my measurements whit calliper weren´t accurate but close enought to verify. now i´m sure.
Okay......hmmmm
i think pulling engine would be fastest way . ( have an old International Harvester 2 Ton Tractor with Back Loader and manual chain hoist here)
thX BadSS for your Cam listing and good Explanation..... i think i going with one off the top ones in your list because fiddeling with Fuelpressure an Timing without Experience is to much of a headache for me now
wow.....these Cams are not cheap .....especially with shipping , import fees AND Taxes .... nothing aviable in Europe Damn it
Last edited by SlowAndSteady; 03-02-2022 at 05:18 AM.
sorry for my long absence. Life with Wife , Kids and a Houes to renovate leaves you very little spare time for hobbies.
Anyway
I followed your advive (BadSS) an was able to get a Cam for a reasonable Price to Germany after some search and waiting.
Lunati 10120700 Voodoo - 250/256, 207/213 – 112, Lift .437/.454 it is
In the meantime was able to do all the cleaning , painting and the core and oilplugs and (very proud) new cam bearings .....i wrecked only 1 bearing in the Process and had to buy a 2nd complete set YAYYY
At the moment im in the process to pull out all the piston pins to reuse the Rods and getting a new set of pistons because previous owner put in 2 different pistons ( 1 SEALED POWER H534CP and 7 Enginetech i think with different weight and possibly height)
there where all Flattops w 4 Vrs
I done some Reading and am now really confused what pistons to order (usually i order from RA because they done international Orders very fast and uncomplicated) . it looks around 1986 was a time they changed compression ratio ? i see some 8,1:1 and 9,3:1 readings here. also not clear if dished without VRs or flattop or slight dish with 4 VRs .
For Example ENGINETECH P1598 slight dish and 4 VR comp ratio 9.3 : 1 . Listed only for 87 and up
ENGINETECH P1559 no dish 4 VR comp ratio 8.6 : 1 listed fo all years
how do i know what to get, does it even make a difference with a engine near "Stock" ?
Again its a 305 TPI Setup with 1pc main seal. stock heads , mild cam . we use mostly 95 octane Gas here in Germany
Bores are all measured with Boregauge and are all under service limits from Haynes manual.
The original 305 would have been around 9.5:1 compression. In 1985 and later, all of the 305's were 9.5:1. Prior to that, the L69 305HO was 9.5:1 and the LG4 305 was 8.6:1.
The flat tops with 4 valve reliefs should get you to around 9.5:1, but I would do a calculation to be sure. There are threads here that discuss how to do that if you search. Anything under 10:1 and you'll be fine on 95 octane.
Weird that it has different brand pistons. That could mean a few different things. The motor may have been built from leftover parts at the machine shop, or maybe the cylinders were bored to different sizes. Before ordering new pistons, you need to accurately measure each cylinder bore to see if they were machined larger and if so, how much. Also measure the bores in multiple places to check for out of round and taper. You'll need a set of snap gauges to do that. How do the bores look? Still have crosshatch, no ridge at the top?
The original 305 would have been around 9.5:1 compression. In 1985 and later, all of the 305's were 9.5:1. Prior to that, the L69 305HO was 9.5:1 and the LG4 305 was 8.6:1.
The flat tops with 4 valve reliefs should get you to around 9.5:1, but I would do a calculation to be sure. There are threads here that discuss how to do that if you search. Anything under 10:1 and you'll be fine on 95 octane.
Weird that it has different brand pistons. That could mean a few different things. The motor may have been built from leftover parts at the machine shop, or maybe the cylinders were bored to different sizes. Before ordering new pistons, you need to accurately measure each cylinder bore to see if they were machined larger and if so, how much. Also measure the bores in multiple places to check for out of round and taper. You'll need a set of snap gauges to do that. How do the bores look? Still have crosshatch, no ridge at the top?
Ok thank you for your Answer. i try to explain what i have done step by step
had pulled all pistons, No. 5 is an H534CP STD. standart all other are only stamped "GM" and some Numbers on the inside of skird
All pistons where nice and clean , No 5 looked like new , all other not new but like very low mileage, i driven it only like 100 miles after purchase and before that preowner had it rebuild at a shop
then i took the Haynes manual with all service limits ( diameter, Taper , out of round)
than i borrowed a set of Micrometers " clamp type screws ? and a Boregauge with dial gauge on top ( its difficult to translate the technical terms for the measuring tools)
zeroed all out with this "sample size Thingy" that comes with mikrometers to "varify" correct adjustment ( tools had measuring tolerance of 0,01mm equals to 0.00039 inch)
take all measurments on all cylinders 3 times and double check bore diameter , taper, out off round , top middle bottom / 0° and 90°
converted this fairly large list from Millimeters to inches
ALL Numbers are in the middle of (standart size) Servicelimits written in the book .
what i think is: zylinders never been bored BUT get a light Hone, Zylinder 5 change due to broken skird or old englineblock failed completly on 5 , reuse of remaining pistons, cylinder walls show no Damage
After Build they try to start it and setting ignition but due to faulty MAF and other Wiring problems never run correct and all that overturning by starter over and over again cooked the new main and Rodbearings from oil starvation.
car was then sold to me in that condition. Got it runnig correctly but stumbled upon the damaged Bearings
Crosshatching is still presend ( maybe little bit weaker on Wear Side)
Top Ridge is present but i woulnd not call it a "Ridge" its a very very fine "Slope" smooth to the touch and barely feelable . Probably overhoned
consider everything costs of a complete overbore Process ( there are very few machine shops in my area and they charge you crazy amounts of money for small jobs because you are not worth their time between all that Porsche and AMG performance Builds, its crazy) and planned Use as a " summer weekend cruiser" (cars 30years of age and older get if you want a special " Historical Vehicle" Registration . taxes are very cheap then but you have ty take good care and keep it presentable) its Okay to leave it like it is ( mayyyyyyyy be light hone whit bottle brush ?) and equip it with Standart Quality STD. Standart Size Pistons
Lets say it this way : IF i go into a machine shop with such Pricetags its a 350 ( and probably no TPI )
If the cylinder bores are measuring within spec and the crosshatch looks good, I would replace the pistons/rings and put it back together. The damaged main bearings I would want to investigate a little further. Your theory of cranking it over with dry bearings may be the case, but the engine builder probably used assembly lube and it seems unlikely. If new bearings were wiped that quickly, I would suspect that either the clearances were wrong or there was an oiling problem. I'd recommend measuring up the bearings and journals. Did the rod bearings get wiped too, or just the mains?
If the cylinder bores are measuring within spec and the crosshatch looks good, I would replace the pistons/rings and put it back together. The damaged main bearings I would want to investigate a little further. Your theory of cranking it over with dry bearings may be the case, but the engine builder probably used assembly lube and it seems unlikely. If new bearings were wiped that quickly, I would suspect that either the clearances were wrong or there was an oiling problem. I'd recommend measuring up the bearings and journals. Did the rod bearings get wiped too, or just the mains?
i dont know, considering the Fact about mixing pistons dont make me belive it was a professional job......so assembly lube questionable
Oil pressure was very low from the beginning and both Rod and main bearings all new with 0.0020 undersize are toast .... even crankshaft surfaces are scratched
Plastigauge showed them all on the very loose side with to much clearance. IDK what the Hell they have done there.
Anyway.... i already ordered a Remanufactured Crankshaft Kit (Was much cheaper than grinding the old crankshaft + new bearings)
checked all oil passages and plugs and get an new oil pump
But back to the pistons
I read in another Thread that the "Stock" Pistons had an Compression height of 1.56 for an undecked Block
Most "Rebuilder" pistons are 1.54 compression height to give extra "decking clearance"
So if i let the deck as it is i should get an 1.56 Flat top like the SEALED POWER H534CP that was already in it.
how fahr "in the hole" (piston surface to Deck) should it be ? i want to use a standart felpro headgasket ( no thin metall )
quick update . in the meantime a lot of things have happened
enginge block is nearly done.oil gallerys clean, new camshaft plus bearings done . now i was digging into the Crankshaft. ALL bearing surfaces are shoot as you know. easiest way was to order a crankshaftkit from RA but apperently there not available any more or not at the time. 350 crank is available ( i know they have a different balancing but are basically the same) that was not such a big problem because i am changing pistons anyway an there are "special" heavier pistons for 305 engine to use with a 350 balanced crank. But also not available in "std" anymore .
After that i was thinking okay only logical solutions is to give the old crank to a machineshop and let them grind down and make it fit for some oversized bearings. the guy was actually very familliar with sbcs , you can say here in germany a very rare guy. he looked at it for 5 minutes and said: This is a Crank from a 350 engine .You can see that on the counterweights and Drillholes. It will run but without new balancing will run "shaky" at some RPMs.
After some reading in Forums i think he is right .the 305 cranks have a lot more material taken away. Somebody blindy put in a crank from a 350 whitout rebalancing.
I said okay , how much money is it for all the Work. Let me say it this way. i was only able to take a deep breath....grabbed my crank and left. the price was a good number up in the 4 digits.
Finding me literally in a dead end , searching the internet for used parts i found some bavarian guy offering his old 1991 305 Roller block from a Camaro. without any Accesories or heads. only block itself with crank , rods, pistons, cam , lifters , oilpan and flexplate. Still in one piece , not opened. he had it changed to a 5.7liter performace engine. Prior to that the 305 was running flawless and was only taken out (with oil in it) sat on a tire and endet up in a corner of his Garage.
i jumped in my minivan and drove the 340 miles. Price was very good . engine was good condition by looks . so loadet it in and take it home.
Initially my plan was to use only crank , rods , pistons. Resell the block and came out maybe with zero costs.
Yesterday i opened it . Condition is very very good.Oil had no contaminations, no flakes . no wearing in the bores. all bearing surfaces show no wear or scoring . Plastigage says .002 clearance at all the mains (original GM "fit" bearings in .0006 size)
the crank is definetly a 305 crank , the "drillholes" are much much deeper than those in my crankshaft.
Condition is that good that thinking about simply clean it and put it togehter whit my parts like it is and just drive it . Was looking at my Budget anyway.
My old freshly made "flat tap" block would be there as a Replacement in Case anything goes bad.
Ok now to my Questions: i checked Block Numbers but they dont make any sense :
Cast Number: 14093627 > lead to a 1987-1991 , 305, 2 bolt, roller cam, 1-piece rear seal
that seems correct
But: Stamping: V0809CLD / 1M (V?) 146142
CLD refers to a 1973 or 1977 350 Vette non roller
Are the Suffixes "reused over the Years ? Or is it possible that someone "restamped" it to "legalise" the Engine in a old vette ?
Because i want to know what Power the Engine was built to determine if i order a other Roller Cam
IF it was ratet by 210-230HP i would leave it like it is
02-28-2022, 04:20 AM
