I was having a discussion with a few friends of mine. Disclaimer none of them own a Third Gen Camaro. But one owns a late model Challenger Hellcat, a late model F-150 (Ecoboost) and one a 2001 Mustang GT. All of them were talking about how they can only use Shell gas or Chevron Gas or BP gas or another brand that has been labelled as "Top Tier." I have owned my TPI IROC Z for 10 years now. They were stunned when I told them that honestly, gas brand doesn't matter. My car just seems to run the best on 89 octane but I have put everything from Shell to Walmart to Wawa to Circle K to 7/11 to Exxon to Speedway to Sunoco to if it exists, I've filled up with it. 90% of the time over the last 4 years my car gets Circle K gas as that is the station closest to my house. But I can safely say I have never noticed a difference.

The only times I have noticed a difference is when I did go out of my way a few years ago to experiment with ethanol free. I noticed that both the Wawa 89 ethanol free and another gas station that had 90 ethanol free, after using several tanks, I did feel like my car ran smoother (as it's real gas). But it was too out of my way to do it frequently, so I just stick to the local Circle K.

What about you guys?

 

Regarding brands, 'sounds like another one of those wives tales. I definitely avoid ethanol when possible for my old cars...

 

Realistically, top tier fuels matter most on direct injected engines due to the issues they have with deposit formation on the intake valves. A well tuned port injected engine that doesn't idle for extended periods should be fine with just about any fuel of the proper octane. Ethanol free has a greater energy density than e10-e15 fuels.

 

Nah, replace the fuel filter every 15k and send it.

 

Yep, if I was actively going to the drag strip with my car, I would just use traditional ethanol free gas. Since I'm not, it's not important at the moment.

 

Yes. Top Tier gas does matter......of the Top Tiers, ExxonMobil is best, Then Chevron, Sunoco, etc.
Shell is top tier, but you really want to avoid it as much as possible. It has too many additives.

 

My father-in-law retired from an oil refinery, there is no difference in any on the big companies (Shell, Chevron, Ect.) fuel except slightly different (like 1%-2%)additive packages, they all get the fuel from the same refinery, same tanks, and put the proprietary additive package in as its being pumped into the trucks, than the lower gas stations (QT, Delta, AAFES Ect.) buy the older stock that hasn't sold from the big companies at a discount and sell it at their gas stations, so it ends up being a mix of various big company gas.

 

Follow around a tanker truck making deliveries some time and you may be surprised at how many different brands are in fact the same.

 

The top tier brands are more consistent with their contents. When they say Ethanol free, it will test that way. Also, their octane ratings are more consistent. The biggest benefit as mentioned above is the additives and reduced impurities.

 

HI Everyone,

I currently work in the automotive fuel space for a large gas station chain in the Southeast as a fuel inventory accountant. I would like to throw my 2 cents in here. I can only speak for the Southeastern region and some of the northeast region, as my subsisiary just purchased the branding rights to a well known oil brand with a lot of racing heritage.

1: Fuel Today Vs. 1980s: Fuel today is different than it was when our cars were produced. The base stock coming out of the refineries today are not 87 or 93 Octane as they were in the past. Currently regular (A Grade) and Premium (D Grade by Colonial Pipeline Terms) are 84.7 and 91.4 Octane. When blended with between 9-10% ethanol, the fuel becomes 87/E10 and 93/E10 as Ethanol has a higher Octane rating than the base stock. Ethanol, along with the additives, are blended when the product is loaded into a truck at a terminal and transported to a store for consumer sale.

2: Base Stock: At most terminal (the location that the base stock is stored before it is blended) has very few additives in it. Essentially, A grade and D grades are all the same within the same region (A.K.A PADD). The base stock that comes off of the Colonial Pipeline in Atlanta, GA is the same fuel that comes off of the pipeline in Norfolk, VA. All of the stock is in the same tank with different amounts of the product being owned by different companies. So Marathon, who is also a terminaling agent and a big player in the Southeast, holds Marathon base stock in the same tank as the Wawa, Ingles, and QuikTrip base stock. Rights are assigned to each agent for the amount of fuel that they own title to. Fun Fact #1, Fuel title is sold and bought between these parties on a daily basis and it's known as a Internal Tank Transfer (ITT) or Inter-teminal Transfer (ITT) based on the jargon the terminal location uses. No product physically moves, just the ownership changes within the tanks. This dispels the myth that third parties buy "the older stock" at a discount. Fun Fact #3: terminal balances can go into the negatives from time to time for title owners. The difference is made up using product titled to other counterparties.

3: Rack sales: There are two ways fuel is sold between companies, Bulk Movements and Rack Movements. Bulk movements are generally anything over 9,000 Gallons, as that is roughly the legal limit for a Simi-Tanker to haul. These are transported by Railcar, Barge, Ship, or Pipeline. These generally flow into the terminal. Rack sales are mostly made up by truck movements that carry product away from a terminal. Think of it as your paycheck in your bank account. Your employer deposits a large sum into you bank account (Bulk) and you spend it on little items such as gas, insurance, car parts, ect. (Rack Movements). Fun Fact #4: base stock can be purchased from the terminal (Marathon), loaded onto a third party delivery truck (Florida Tank Lines), and sold to another counter party (QT) without ever receiving title of the product. This is known as a Buy/Sell deal in the industry.

NOTE: I stated that there is very little difference between base stocks in the same region. While this is true, there are differences between stocks in opposing regions and cities. These differ between climates as the Southeast runs 7.2Lb weight and some northern cities run up to or over 9lb. I don't know the chemical differences between the weights, but 9lb fuel commands a higher price. This is a small part of the reason why prices differ from region to region, especially in the winter.

4: There is a difference between Summer and Winter grades of base stock. These are generally defined by the refinery with a number following the letter. So A2 is a summer regular base stock while A4 is a winter regular base stock. NOTE: Each pipeline and terminaling agent utalizes different letters and numbers to identify base stocks, so one companies A2 is another companies L4. This confused the daylights out of me when I joined the industry and I need a reference chart to know who calls their base stock what.

5:Additives: As the base stock for the fuel is all the same at the same terminal, the only difference is the amount of additives used when the fuel is blended. It's worth noting that the EPA sets the minimum standard of additives, this includes detergents and other additives for emissions. This can go two different ways, first is to use the same additive package in a higher concentration, or Second, as a "Special Blend" of additives (think Texaco with Techron). Top Tier Gasoline, A.K.A (TT), can be defined as either one of these. QuikTrip actually sells Top Tier gasoline utilizing the first method and Marathon utilizes the second method. And to make this even more confusing, there are branded and unbranded blended stock. Marathon would be an example of a Branded fuel while QT, even though it has enough additives to be considered Top Tier, is unbranded fuel. Generally, fuel utalizing a "Special Blend" of additives is branded, thus has a higher cost associated with it compared to Top Tier unbranded fuel.

6: Does this matter? As with most things in life, IT Depends. would you rather buy fuel from a nice QT or Wawa compared to an old, rundown Marathon store? Most consumers will buy from the nice, shiny store with a well-lit canopy and bright colors. However, there are a few pointers I can give. Do not buy gasoline while a truck is delivering. Cross Drop, or when the driver drops the wrong product into the wrong tank happens daily, and trust me, you don't want to try running your vehicle off of a mixture of ULSD and regular. Second, Water intrusion into the tanks and lines are a never ending battle. It's similar to rust, as it can develop anywhere at any time, especially in high humid environments and large temperate swings. Utilizing Denatured Ethanol in modern cars is not a problem, as the fuel lines, O-rings, and plastics are designed to handle the corrosiveness of the Ethanol. Classis cars, and yes our cars are classis due to the 25 year rule, were not designed with ethanol in mind. Use at your own risk. I will leave with Fun Fact #5: Clear 87 Gasoline (E0 or Ethanol Fee Gas) is made by blending A grade and D grade base products together in a 40/60 ratio, then the additives are added and it's all done at the terminal. Fun Fact #6. Mid Grade (89 Octane or 89/E10) is made by blending 87/E10 and 93/E10 together at the pump. Most gas stations do not have a sperate tank for midgrade anymore.

Let me know if you have any questions. I account for these differences each and every day.

 

That is a load of information. Interesting.

And all these years I have been filling my old and new cars up with the cheapest "87 octane" I can find. Never been able to tell much difference, but I also don't have any imagination at all and have a hard time convincing myself that my cars run any better or worse on any particular brand of gas.

 

Thanks, Whitebird75 for detailed and inside knowledge! Very interesting reading what goes into the gas we buy. Now if it could be cheaper?!

 

Sorry if I used to much Jargon, but understanding the inner workings of the industry is needed to answer the question on Top Tier additives and the difference, or lack thereof, of fuel brands.

 

After pulling a bunch of engines apart for various reasons, I will always run Top Tier fuel and Synthetic oil changed at the proper intervals. The engines stay much cleaner. Very little carbon buildup on the pistons and combustion chambers compared to engines running unknown fuel. I have pulled apart engines running synthetic oil that looked like new with over 200K on them. I have pulled apart sludged up neglected engines run on conventional oil with less than 50K on them that needed complete rebuilds. I had a few TBI and Vortec 305/350 engines that had spark knock and knock retard running on 87 octane when I got them. A couple of tanks of Shell or Chevron top tier 93 octane fuel, combined with a few wide open throttle pulls cleaned the carbon right out of the chambers and had them spark knock free resulting in a noticeable jump in power.

 

Good to know. Were any of those part of that bunch of 305s that got pole vaulted?

 

There's no question in my mind that Ethanol free fuel is the way to go. My car does run best on REC 90, better than super 93. I also noticed it is only at the name brand stations. Around me the discount stations don't carry it.

 

After I adjusted the stoich setting from 14.7 to 14.1, mine always ran great on our 10% ethanol. The engine does not care what fuel it runs on provided the fueling is correct. I ran a flex fuel sensor on my L31 for years and it loved E85. Big increase in torque running on E85 and it cost less to run than 93 octane. Only downside was ~20% less range.

 

There is a lots of good information posted above. For those who may not know, much is covered in detail there.

I live about 4 miles from two pipeline terminals, and a lot can be learned by just watching what goes on there. Every brand tanker shows up at one or both of those locations to replenish fuel retailers within about a 75 mile radius. The 9,200 gallon air-ride tanker truck marked "Amoco" with the big red and blue letters parks in the queue right behind the tanker painted with the yellow "Shell" logo, and they both wait in line behind the "Marathon" tanker loading up at the one and only set of racks in the depot. Of course, any one of those has gasoline for sale which is better than any of the other guys' gasoline, and they'll be happy to tell you about that in cryptic terms if you just askj, or listen to their advertising.

The base fuel at this location comes up either the Buckeye or Marathon/MTL pipeline, and is stored in the surface tanks at each of these terminals to be shared by all. The other tanks of diesel and ethanol are also on site to fill and blend in cells of the tankers to satisfy their needs. "Casey" and "Love's" and "Phillips" and a host of other brand-name and private contract hauler tankers take their turns running through the rack shed 24 hours a day.

In short, there is no difference in the base product. Blending ethanol at the rack is done by choice, and the real difference is in the 3 gallon "magic jugs" of additive added to the tanks at the retailer's location. That crap must be expensive.

The other differences (if there are any real differences) are likely due to storage tank integrity, tank venting, dwell time in the USTs, and filtering at the pump. Oh, and of course, the price someone pays for the sign at the retail station.

Ethanol done properly is not a problem. It's been in my area since 1976, and I've used it since then. I try to be careful about fuel treatment, storage, and use, and had ONE problem with ethanol cleaning the crud out a fuel tank and depositing it in a carburetor bowl (and jets) about 30+ years ago.

 

Yeah? Have a look at this:

CRUDDY VALVES FROM CHEAP GAS?




That is intervals and drive cycle/conditions. Not the oil. Any experienced mechanic has also pulled apart engines running conventional oil that looked like new with over 200K on them...with proper change intervals for the driving conditions.

 

Well I can only speak before and after. The vehicle spark knocked enough to have loads of knock retard. A couple of tanks of top tier cleaned it out well enough that it stopped spark knocking.

I have also never seen an engine run on conventional oil that did not have some kind of buildup on the back of the pistons and oil control rings. This piston was out of a carbureted engine that had over 150K on it when it hydraulic locked and bent a rod. It was running top tier fuel and synthetic oil.

I also had a Vortec that I ran GM Top Engine clean in every couple of oil changes to help keep the manifold from carboning up from the EGR. Far cleaner when I tore it apart than others I have had apart. Techron was also great for helping prevent the Vortec poppets from sticking. I had one that kept getting misfire from sticky poppets. I cleaned it using straight Techron into the fuel pressure test port to run the engine, then used a bottle of it about every 3rd or 4th fillup. Never had a poppet stick again.

 

This is what I normally see a Vortec manifold look like after some miles are on it that have not seen top-engine cleaner treatments.

 

1. I guess that you'd need to have looked at more and properly maintained engines?
2. I have no doubt that GM top end cleaner....cleaned an engine you had. It works. What's that got to do with the price of bread? (gasoline)

 

You are the one that said additives were snake oil, not me. I have looked at engines that were properly maintained. I pulled apart a LT1 that had oil changes religously at 3,000 miles with 5w30 Valvoline conventional oil. It was burning a ton of oil. The pistons were coked with carbon and the oil control rings were all stuck from the carbon buildup. It was bad. The car called for Mobil One yet the owner went for conventional oil and paid the price for it.

 

I said that in this thread? Where? Can you quote that, for me? The linked thread was a different context/purpose than this thread. I linked that thread, for it's pictures that relate to this thread, and the "need" for top tier gas. I linked it, to show pics of valves and ports with high miles, run with NOT, top tier gas. The intake port pics were the relevance to this thread. What's GM cleaner got to do with gasoline?

Sure you did. Any ideas why that might have happened (if this story is real)? My problem with that claim is twofold:
1. The claim is hard to believe since I see many, many engine internals, performance, life and analysis' through my work. We see nothing of the sort, with a properly maintained engine(s)
2. Application.

But...More importantly....what the hell's synthetic oil got to do with the price of bread??? This thread's about gasoline....I think.

Hey look! A SQUIRREL!