From a 60 mile hour roll to 120, the cobra has cat back exhaust, x pipe, 3:73's. The civic is a 00 SI vtec 5 speed. It has a complete greedy turbo kit putting out 8 psi of boost on stock internals. who wins?

 

Sorry to play Devils Advocate but I think the Civic will pull him if the driver knows how to drive it good.

 

it will be very close, and the only reason i think the civic will stay up is b/c how well turbos do with high rpm. i say the civic has a very small edge-with a good driver, but it also depends on the year of the cobra.
if its a 93, or a 94-95, the civic definately
96-98 cobra, civic by small margin
99-on, could be up for grabs ('cept for the 99 which was overrated)

 

its the 96' model year with the DOHC motor

 

civic

 

If the guy in the Mustang can drive I say Stang.

There is a Civic near me with a turbo running in the mid 13s at like 101 on slicks. That car is quick but it does not pull in the top end. I don't knoe hoe much boost he is running, but if the kid in the Cobra knows the shift points and isn't afraid to run the car, he should win.

I personally don't think 60-120 is a race, it's more like suicide with a purpose.

 

I dont understand why people think turbocharged cars dont pull on the top end. If anything they will pull ONLY on the top end ... especially if its a small displacement engine (like a civic). Read up on the concepts of turbocharging (exhaust driven) and why people always complain about Turbo Lag.

And BTW, what happens on the 1/4 mile dosn't apply when you compare it to a street race. Street races usually start around 50-60 mph and end around 140-150 mph. This holds especially true with imports that have engines that suck below 4000 rpm and need time to wind up. Thats why people with imports prefer to race on the street ... they can downshift and start in their powerband instead of having to let it wind up from a dead stop.

What kinda tranny does the 96 Cobra have anyway? Did they all come with 6 speeds? I didnt take into account that it might be a 6 speed. If he downshifts into the correct gear he might pull the civic to 120mph .... but I could see the civic passing him around 130mph when he hits max boost in 4th.

The Greddy kit on the B16a DOHC 1.6ltr '00 Si motor should give him around 285 hp / 200 ft-lbs the crank. Not very impressive numbers ..... but still fast in that leightweight car!!

Cobra has a chance!!

 

the speed of the car doesn't have to do with the boost the turbo makes, it's rpms here folks. if the civic is going 100 mph at 3000 rpms, it won't make much power. if it's going 100 mph at 6000 rpms, it will make good boost.

my vote, cobra. even though it's a friggin ford (though better american than japanese).

 

Of course turbo engines make more boost the more you load them up. That being said a 1.6L engine even boosted doesn't make enough power to pull real hard at high speeds. Air resistance gets to be really high over 100 mph. I say the stang has it all the way.

On a side note to help my point. I used to own a 2.3 turbo coupe and it had a hard time pulling over 110 on 12 lbs of boost, which is stock. You could bump it up to 20lbs no sweat and it was a totally different animal then. That doesn't mean that it wouldn't run 120-130 in a decent amount of time, I'm just saying that it started to lay down. I also know that a t-bird is heavier than a civic. I'm just trying to say what the characteristics of small displacement boosted engines are. My firebird is totally different. It pulls hard all the way through third without any signs of slowing up and finishes out at 130. HP has more to do with top speed than power to weight.

 

my $ is on the cobra, those DOHC motors pull pretty good at higher speeds

 

I would like to see the Cobra win, but I think the Civic will win. I've ran into a turbo civic on the highway before and damn that thing pulled big time from a 60mph roll. Oh yeah in my opinion a real "street race" mostly happens from a stop atleast around my way. We usually have some one line them up and start them.

 

depends on the size of the turbo and setup on the motor as well


a stock rx-7 pounding out a whole whopping 6-8 psi will start boosting almost off idle

lets put it this way

stock 87 N/A peak torque is 138 lbs/ft @ 3800 rpms this is with a motor of 9.4 compression

a stock 87 turbo rx-7 puts out more then the N/A's peak torque at 1500 rpms by quite a bit at only 1500 rpms
full boost is almost all there by what 2500 rpms
though you put something like a t88 on there and yeah you are going to get some turbo lag

 

I just think that a top end race isn't much of a race. It is basically seeing who will chicken out first. It has no bearing on the real world. Twisties and from a dead stop are experienced everyday, whereas 120mph is not.

 

i think that would be a good race because the mustang has the higher gear to help it stay in the power band but the civic has the power to weight advantage.

if they start at 60mph the civic could be in 3rd in vtech and at full boost but he would have to shift quick or he could be in 4th gear bearly in vtech but he wouldn't be at full boost yet i don't think where as the mustang would be in it's power band ready to roll.

i'll go with the cobra cuz that turbo that comes with the greddy kit isn't that big and 8 pounds of boost isn't much and car is't makin that much power to begin with.

 

All i have to say is that if this race happens, post it. And also, if i were driving the Civic and it was a windy day, i would be very afraid. My t/a gets REAL light in the front and bouncy over 80. I also drive a 95 Taurus and on route 22 with a side wind of 15mph even that cars gets squirlley at only 65. I would be very afraid in that light civic. As for the winner, unfortunatly, Civic. Unless it flips or blows the engine. I just saw a video of a twin turbo Supra beating a GSXR racing bike on the highway. NUTS!

~Matt

 

Believe me, it had a hard time pulling over 110 because it was heavy. I own a 85 Mustang SVO with the same 2.3ltr EFI Turbo motor @ 10 psi on a T3 (stock setup pretty much) and it has no problem pulling to 140mph in 4th. Of course its gutted (no dashboard even) and stock weight was 2900 pounds ... so the car is prolly very light. I've walked away from IROC's @ a 65 mph roll in a street race (not sure if it was the 305ho or the 350 but i smoked his ***). Down it to 3rd and I'm already on boost. The weight of the car has alot to do with top speed and performance in general when you're talking sport compact performance. My SVO had less HP and TQ than that IROC, i'm certain.

And on a side note, when v-tec motors are turbocharged the v-tec feature needs to be disabled. It does not work well with forced induction. Seems v-tec isn't as good as some other flavors of variable valve timing .. vvti, etc.

And will a full coilover kit, I'm sure the Civic would stay planted on the road even with high winds ... but he might get pushed around so much that he looses control. Even a 18 wheeler passing can cause major turbulance!! heheheh

The mustang advantage would be his 5th power gear, while the civic will max it in 4th.

 

just a correction, hawaii guy, there werent any 6 speed mustangs until the new 03 cobra. and in my opinion the cobra is gonna take this unless the civic ups his boost to like 15-20 lbs. 8 lbs is like a 50 shot of nitrous, doesnt really do much good. better than stock but not enough to beat a cobra. and the cobra motors pull hard in the upper rpms so im gonna give this to the cobra unless he misses a gear or starts off in 5th.

 

u sure about the "no 6-speed stang until '03" comment? i thought the cobra in 96 got a 6-speed..eh i could be wrong

IF and this is a BIG IF, the turbo civic is set up right i'd put my $ on the civic, if he's a typical ***** that thinks just bolting on a turbo without supportin mods will make him king he's gonna lose...

 

no cobra but the 03 got a 6 speed.

 

What about the Cobra-R's they've been getting 6 speeds for some time now. Regular cobra's have had 5 speeds up until 03' though as far as I know. The 99' cobra vert I drove was a 5 speed.

 

I have seen some interesting posts above, some data given is correct, some is not.

First of all, weight has a lot more to do with acceleration than top speed. 100 lbs may be worth a tenth (and 1 mph) in the quarter mile, but is only worth about 1mph in top end - on a 150 mph car.

If for example, you take two Camaros with identical aerodynamics:

One has 300hp to 3000lbs, the other 350hp to 3500lbs; each should run about the same in the quarter (all else being equal). Top speed however would go to the 3500lb car, becuase at top speed the 500lbs extra weight is more than counteracted by the 50 extra hp. Acceleration above 120 or so should be better also.

Now, the things that affect the 60-120 sprint are simple:

Power to weight
Gear spreads in the transmissions (rearend gears not as much a factor)
Aerodynamics also play a role (above 100, but just barely)

I would say whatever car has the best power/weight ratio would win, and its hard to tell when there are so many unknowns with the Civic.

 

Think of what RPMs the Cobra will be at 120 mph, I hope those cars breathe well at those rpms.

 

They breathe well at high RPMs. The DOHC Cobra motors actually run much higher in the RPMs than any Mustang and higher than the LS1s. I think the redlines are usually 6800 or so.

Another thing to account for with the Turbo is the size of it. I am pretty sure that what factors how much the boost affects the engine is the size of the turbo. For instance a 40mm turbo with 8psi would help a motor less than a 60mm turbo at 8psi. That is why lots of cars with huge turbos don't have 40psi, they don't need it because of the size of the turbo. If he had a larger turbo the 8psi would be enough, but if he had a smaller turbo it would be like adding a 50 shot.

I am not possetive on this so if any turbo experts could tell me if I am right I would appreciate it.

 

man, i was hoping the Cobra DOHC V8 would take a turboed Civic in the top end. so you guys are telling me it would take a ZR1 to beat the power of a force fed 1.8L at high rpms? damn. i should try to get these guys to race to prove that an American V8 can take a import in the top end. the Cobra has run a best of 14.2 at 102mph, and the Civic ran 14.4 at 102mph

 

Uhm if you want to show the civic an american V8 can win in a high speed race why don't you show him? You've got a better car to do it than the cobra.

 

no offense but both of those cars should have better times, ESPECIALLY if that civic has a turbo, but like i said he could be the typical ***** that has no concept of the order you do mods, probably just has a turbo with nothing else...

 

OK I'm getting tired of everyone saying what they "think" is right.
Do some research

00 si start w/ 160 HP It's a 1.6L not a 1.8L
Base weight for the SI is 2600 lbs.

You want some power numbers go here
http://www.hondata.com/dynocharts.html

These are professional import racers w/dynos and the proper equipment to tune an engine. Not Joe Bob ***** out of his garrage.

'96 stang cobra starts with 305 HP @ min. 3065lbs. curb weight.
Lets say with a full tank and equal weight drivers the Civic comes in at 2800 lbs Mustang at 3265lbs

Lets say rice boy isn't making 300 flywheel Hp something closer to 260.

The mustang with his mods is going to be somewhere in the 315 range lets say.

315/3625 = .0869

260/2800 = .09285

The import has the slight edge in power to weight ratio. If his engine isn't fubared. He can accelerate 1.068 times faster than the mustang assuming both have the same power loss.

Now for the air resistance which is a key player.

Here's a free physics lesson

Air drag = 1/2 (density of air) (velocity)^2 (Coefficient of Drag) (Frontal Area of vehicle)

Let's say the import has 10% less frontal area than the mustang and they both have the same Coefficient of drag. What does this mean? This means that the mustang has 1.10 times the force of the Civic pushing against it at the same speeds.

At 120 mph the mustang will need 8 more horsepower to push it through the wind than the civic. How did I get this

Difference in HP = (25 lbs greater drag force than civic) (176 ft/sec) (1hp/550 ft-lb/sec) = 8 HP
Fortunately the mustang has 55 more horsepower than the civic. Now the acceleration difference is 1.166 times greater in favor of the mustang.

Unfortunately for the civic by 60 mph his power to weight ratio has already diminished significantly. The mustang has overtaken him and continues to hold the advantage until 120. It won't even be a race. If anyone wants my excel sheet and equations I can email them. You can play with the numbers until you like them. This post is already too long.

 

Considering the two cars ran within 2 tenths of each other at the same MPH, I would say that the Cobra would win. The reason is simple: torque. Torque gives an advantage to the car that the smaller Civic motor can only overcome by being at the exact peak of its power at 60mph to keep up. Since there is no traction problem at 60, the better torque to weight ratio of the Cobra will help it pull more and more as the speed increases.

For example, the Mustang might run 13.3 at 102 with perfect traction, and the Civic 13.8 with perfect traction. Torque is the key to speed when HP is a constant. Just ask BMW and Lexus why they increased their motor sizes - its for more torque (GS400 to GS430 and 3.0L M3 to 3.2L M3).

 

uhhh you think so? with my TPI intake, auto trans, and 3.07 gears you think id take a turboed civic and a cobra? from a 60mph roll i think both cars would leave me in the dust! from a stop, however, i would kill them

 

Man, have some confidence in your Vette and go show them both the American Muscle!

 

I think you would be close with the vette with those gears. If your racing to 120. I bet you would beat them to 120 faster then they will get there. Since you seem to be a better driver and your running almost a full second faster if not a full second. I say do it man whats the worst that can happen. You lose to big deal, but I think you will win.

 

I dont understand how we can come to that conclusion without any factual data on either car. Maybe it might turn out like that but it seems more like a theory based on "Let's say the import has 10% less frontal area than the mustang and they both have the same Coefficient of drag." I would be interested in seeing the actual results with factual data but I'm not even going to try. I would like to know how the race turned out. All this math and physics is making me dizzy!!

 

I'm thinking maybe the Cobra now. Cause the Civic I ran into on the hwy was a 12 sec civic, not a 14 sec one. When you use mathematical equations they can help but in its not the same when you apply them to the real world. I've seen too many guys at the track trying over do it with the math. Sometimes it just takes a little common sense and more importantly experience.

 

I think tpivette should line it up with both of them and put a hurting on them at any speed.

 

go get'em tpivette89!!!!!!!!!!!

 

thanks for the confidence guys! but i still dont think i could take either car from a roll. if we raced from a stop to 120, then yes i would win. but i just wanted to see who had the stronger top end pull between a turboed import and a DOHC Cobra. TPI motors were designed with low-end power in mind. the other cars love to rev high. especially with my auto trans, i dont think id be a match for them if we all punched it from a high speed roll. my first 1/8 mile is explosive, but the 2nd half my car kinda falls flat. i think of it this way... if we went from 60, my auto trans would downshift into 3rd gear (2nd would top out at about 70mph, and this is to close mph wise for it to shift into this gear), so my acceleration would be pretty slow as i waited for 3rd to spool up. the Cobra and Civic on the other hand, could downshift their manual trannys to whatever gear put them directly into their powerband, thus effectively crushing me

 

My Money is on the Cobra. I have driven a '96 Cobra and they love high RPM's and top end speed. I think they need more gear than 3.73's. If i had one it would have at least 4.10's in it. Get the Cobra Into the high RPM's and it really moves. They pull from 4500RPM right to redline at 6800.