It's associated with them because "the fast and the furious" made that stereotype. I agree the honda croud is mostly younger kids but I do see a few older guys driving them and modifying them also. I saw a guy in his 40's at the drag strip with a supercharged scion TC once. Car had a bunch of work into it too. We have a little cult at the drag strip here as well, with a bunch of guys that run rotary powered 70's mazda coupes. All of them look to be in thier 40's and all of the cars pull the wheels off the ground and run 10's lol. Guess it's just what your into....age doesn't matter much.

 

JEEEWIZZZZZ lol. this thread feels like a tank full of pahranas....and its all within our community (3rdgeners). now, can you only imagine if just THIS ONE thread was mashed with all the OTHER forums across this world wide web it would be WW3 in a heartbeat.....interesting

 

Dude, carfull what you say. There's a Russian in this thread.

 

Definitely on the " most " there. I'm 22 in a week and you can see what I drive.( its my first car as well ) Favorite band is Metallica too.

My parents raised me right.

 

I'm 17, and most of my friends dig metal. Metal is making a HUGE come back. Especially with games like Guitar Hero and Rock Band that came out, Guitar Hero even has a Metal Track Pack that you can play seperately or with a another copy of Guitar Hero (the track includs bands like The Haunted and Yngwie Malmsteen)

 

it does actually increase the torque output. a gear is nothing more then way to get torque multiplication. think of that 10 speed bike. do you find it easier to go up the hill in 1st or in 10th? if nothing else what is quicker 2000-5000rpms in first or in 3rd? it's both have the same powerband/rpm range. if torque output is the same and the rpm range is the same then wouldn't that stand then that 1st gear should get up and go just as quick as 3rd gear?

as an interesting side note though torque at the wheels goes up with gears yet the horsepower stays the same.

the other thing though is a dyno will not measure the difference that gearing provides as it is designed to factor gears out of the calculations


since you brought that up I'll explain it a little bit.
most dyno's I have seen measure engine rpms. they can also measure wheel rpms.
if you can measure wheel and engine rpms you can then calculate the gearing in there to factor that out of the equation.
this isn't going to count drivetrain loss and crap cause that will just cause a mess so it's going to be more ideal world stuff

IE lets say I have a car that produces 1075 torque at the rear wheels.engine rpms are measured at 974 rpms and engine rpms are measured at 3000 rpms
with this we can figure that gearing is 3.08 (3000/974).
now take 1075/3.08 and that comes out with 349 lbs/ft of torque at the engine (Again ignoring drivetrain losses)
now lets say we switch this to a different gear that now produces 1430.9lbs/ft of torque at that same 3000 rpms. we see though that wheel speed has been reduced though to 731.7 rpms.
now the dyno would calculate the 3000/731.7=4.10
hey we now figured out what gearing the engine runs so lets see
1430.9lbs/ft of torque at the wheels divided by 4.10 = that same 349lb/ft of torque at the engine.

again if you still don't belive gears change acceleration try putting your car in 1st and accelerate from 2000-5000 rpms then try the same in 3rd gear and tell me that they accelerate at the same speed.


if torque output stays the same then how does rate of acceleration change? this defies physics


I agree with the stupid guy... no not you the other "stupid" guy who knows what he is talking about. most people I know disconnect the EGR when running turbo as it seems to do nothing more then cause problems with it in place.
second most cars I know of also disable the EGR at WOT throttle anyway as EGR is more of an emissions device not a performance device. with this full throttle might be tuned a little different then part throttle cruise

 

Only been in a few hondas that put out over 200 at the rear wheels but I have been in an *** ton of hondas that put out over 350 at the front wheels.\

I have also driven my friends track AE86 man with 20 valves and 300 RWHP at 1600lbs that things hauls and handles like its on rails.

 

when refering to most hondas, dont you mean power at the front wheels (fwhp)?lol

 

They almost raised you right, they should have been Maiden fans...

 

Followed by...

Not surprised...

 

Russia? I have just the thing!

http://rutube.ru/tracks/2480734.html

 

RX7speed, I am no physics major (lol) so I agree that I didn't understand exactly how gears worked in regards to torque multiplication. I do know cars though, and my argument was just that you would not see a gain on a dyno with gears, and that they do not affect the engines torque output whatsoever. I appreciate the explanation on how they work scientifically though....it does make perfect sense after reading it.

 

Maiden is an excellent choice as well. Im almost 100% positive that I grew up in the wrong generation.

 

The AE86 is a TOYOTA. Not a honda. I'm sure you knwo that though. And yes, it is RWD.

 

The best part there is AXE add at the end LOL

 

Your point?

Last I checked, Toyota was still considered an import, even though they are now part of the "Big 3" (or at least were a year or so ago), and employ more North Americans than any one of the domestic manufacturers.

 

He was replying to the fact that the previous poster called the Toyota a Honda. Even though Toyotas are made here, if the company is of foreign origin, then they're definitely foreign. Even if their cars are made with more American parts than any of the big American 3

 

Previous poster didn't do that though, he said he also drove in his friends AE86. He didn't call it a Honda, he was just making an addition to his original statement, nothing more...;

 

I can't find where the AE86 was called a Honda.

I see a previous paragraph discussing experience with Hondas, then a new paragraph discussing the AE86.

 

Well I for one read over that. Whether he did as well, I do not know

 

WOW. You guys must be REALLY bored if the only thing you have to make fun of is me making an obvious statement.

But hay



Just call me Capt. Obvious from now on if you will.

 

My pics got sensored

 

come on SKELITOR117 what did you expect in this thread

 

Glad to see that spurned more discussion.


And sorry but I just love muscle cars, metal and rock music, have tattoos all over, would have longer hair if the military allowed it, and am 26. I also listen to some 'rap' or 'hip hop' but the type of things that are their 'scene' are not mine.


J


J

 

I was talking about torque at the rear wheel. You are referring to an "engine dyno". That is different. I have a 25% increase of torque at the wheel with the better gears. Sorry.

 

his comment would work for both an engine dyno or even a dyno that measures wheel torque as they convert the numbers to be engine dyno numbers. neither one will show the torque gain on them.

my question though is how much horsepower did you gain with these said gears?

 

I'm sorry, there is no way you can increase the torque put down to the wheels by changing your gears. You can increase the RATE at which the torque is put to the wheels, but you cannot physically increase the amount of torque put down by simply changing the gears.

 

Actually that is exactly how gears work, they multiply the input torque by the ratio. This is simple, simple physics.

You can also divide the torque by changing which side of the gears are the drive and driven gears.

If gears didn't increase the torque applied, then we would have no need for multi gear transmissions. An engine would also have to produce over 1000 ft/lbs just to get even some of the lightest cars moving (at an acceptable rate).

 

So by that logic an engine that puts out 300 ft/lbs of torque through a 1:3 gear ratio differential (used 3 for simplicity) would be putting down 900 ft/lbs of torque to the wheels (not bothering to account for tires)?
So then how is rear wheel torque figured out?

 

An engine or chassis dyno will still not show any difference with a gear change...so I am sorry too.

And all this arguing about how much torque gets multiplied with whatever gears are in the car....it's really not a valid point in the "car guy" community, so I don't know why everyone is getting hung up on it. When I see a dyno chart that shows me my engines torque at the rear wheels...that means something to me. That lets me make changes to the setup and tailer it to how I want it. Car guys understand engine torque....they don't typically care much or even know what the actual multiplied torque to the wheels according to the gears is.

 

I agree, you gear it to the application. If the 1/4 mile you want to be in your peak power as you cross the traps. For road courses its a little more complicated there are more factors to take into account.

My G6 is like that at Road America in Turn 6. 2nd gear just doesn't wind out far enough, before the corner so I usually end up shifting into 3rd gear early for the corner but the 2-3 split is a little large and it puts me down on power coming out of turn 6. I've tried it a few ways but I've never found a comfortable zone for that turn. The rest it doesn't seem to matter much. I take the kink in 3rd and run through the kettle bottoms in 4th.

 

this. its all a trade off

 

Truthfully, we seek the answer not because we believe that it will make our cars more powerful, but because it will make us more powerful.

"Knowledge is power." -Sir Francis Bacon

 

well rather than my suggested stereo debate, we've gone to debating rear end gear and how gears actually work, for once this thread has a technical somewhat factual prowess hooray for becoming normal, however we've lost touch with our roots, and therefore..........



RICERS IS DUMB

 

I swear, another few pages and we'll all be technical geniuses. Who needs college? Read this thread from front to back and you'd be qualified to be an engineer!

 

That is exactly how it works, assuming you're in 4th gear whic in most cars is a 1:1 ratio. Using a lower gear will multiply the torque even more, using over drive will not have as much multiplication, due to over drive being less than 1:1, typically around .70:1.

Actual tire patch torque can be calculated by working the tire diameter into the equation. Changing tire diameters is also a way to change effective gear ratio. This is why many people will have shorter tires for drag racing than what they use on the street.

 

that sir, is utter genius, i hope that this 26 page monstrosity of idiocracy never gets deleted i want to remember it always

 

changing gears on a car to apply more torque is the same as using a longer breaker bar when that bolt gets stuck. gears give you a mechanical leverage and hence more torque when used.

it's the reason cars have gears in the first place rather then a 1 speed tranny. 1st gear puts more torque down the wheels then does 4th or 5th gear.
If you still want proof see how much faster your acceleration is from 2000-5000rpms in 1st then it is in 3rd.
same rpm range, same power band. one has much faster acceleration. if the torque is the same at the wheels then why is one so much faster at accelerating?




biggest reason that dyno's take gearing and tire size out of the situation. it's much easier to understand engine torque then it is to understand that your car was in 4th gear and your buddies was in 3rd but you have 28" tires and he has 26" tires and his gearing is a little steeper then your so why does his engine which is the same as yours put out 300 more lbs/ft of torque at the wheels.

it's just much easier to convert it to engine torque (minus drivetrain losses) and just call it a day as it is much easier to compare and a whole lot less variables to deal with.

though I will say this is part of the reason many four banger cars are able to do what they do with their weak engines. they have half the torque but just under twice the gearing. it's what enables them to at least someone hold their own and why the high rpms help them out as it enables them to run a little more gear.

but what do I know. according I'm just a *****

 

That makes perfect sense- thanks for explaining that comprehensively.

As per your last point- here's a car exemplary of what we've been discussing:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2011...treet-car.aspx


N/A, stock exhaust manifold, 3" exhaust (overkill, IMO- a 2.5" system would be far better), a whopper set of gears at 4.7:1, and it just dips into the 12's at 12.949

 

Exactly why all motor hondas are great through the first 2 or 3 gears, but then will get walked pretty good by a car with a bigger engine. The ultra low gearing in the tranny helps them accelerate pretty good, but then once they hit 4th and you need to use the actual engines power rather than the gearing, they sort of lose it. My brother raced a ford lightning in his old VTEC swapped civic and it was pretty close until the end of 3rd gear, and then the lightning walked it pretty good.

 

Torque, moment or moment of force (see the terminology below), is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis,[1] fulcrum, or pivot. Just as a force is a push or a pull, a torque can be thought of as a twist.

In automotive sense torque is a transfer of power from piston/rod to crank/flywheel.
The only torque that matters is an engine torque. What happens after that relevant to momentum/acceleration. Power output of an engine doesn't change as "multiplication" happens down the drive shaft (my Russian's two rubles )

 

Front wheel drive cars also generally better accelerating because "torque" transfer takes place along the same axis (engine/transmission/axle) vs. 90 degrees power transfer of RWD vehicle. Also there are less parasitic loses due to not having to transfer power via twisting/vibrating drive shaft as well.
So in theory out of two same powered cars, FWD will accelerate faster.

 

say what? sorry it's early and I'm just not understanding yet.

 

Ouuuu, I am sowwwwy. I'll try to use short sentences. Tree words or less.
You won't even have to wake up. I promise. Ok? Good....

 

Let me try again is simple terms for rx7:

Torque is force. Differentials don't make force. Engines make force. Torque at rear wheel nonsense.

 

Except that you forgot to take weight transfer into account. All the extra weight of a car shifts to the rear tires under acceleration. Thus, shifting more grip to the back. Doesn't matter how much power your car will retain to the wheels if it can't put it to the ground.

 

I also didn't mention torque-steer (oops, here we go again... torque).
I didn't account for many minor things that would influence acceleration. But those are relatively minor comparing to having to change angle of force and drive shaft loses. RWD cars spin tires too

 

go ahead with the trolling it's fine. it's not the size of your words just more of what you are saying and why.

differentials don't make torque you are right. nobody ever thought that a differential or gearing for that matter will create torque. they will how ever multiply torque.
as far as the power output of an engine though that remains unchanged even with the usage of gears. only the torque changes through the use of gears. I've already said that some time ago. hell I've explained that hear many years ago on this same forum.
so I'm not sure what you are trying to bring to the table here with your smart attitude when it seems you are just recycling something that was said earlier.

though I do disagree with you saying that only engine torque matters. wheel torque is and can be quite important also as it is the torque that is put out at the wheels that actually says how fast we move not just the engine torque.

 

Man. I think my brain just grew some new wrinkles.

 

Wrinkles are good! Increased cortex surface area= increased intelligence (at least from an evolutionary standpoint)