FruityOne

I think most of you have heard my sob story before, if not heres the back ground.

Bought my car and found out it had a cracked block. I decided to go with a long block. After searching for a good remanufacturer I found one in washington state with decent prices and a good warrenty. I talked with the sales consultant over a period of several weeks, and he assured me that the performance would be just as it was from the factory.

At the time I didn't know anything about head castings, or block casting #'s. So I bought it thinking that the new long block would perform exactly as the factory engine.

After about 3 months, the tracks opened and my car was past the break in period so I took it to the track.

I ran a consistant 87mph +/- .1 mph. I knew something was wrong, but suspected other things like cap/rotor, plugs, wires etc.

Ran out of ideas so I decided to check up on the head casting numbers and found out they used 193 swirl port heads on my reman.

How much worse are the swirl ports compared to the factory 083 heads? Enough to drop a expected 1/4 mph to 87mph? Can anyone prove that the 193 heads are worse than the 083 L98 heads? Because right now i'm am about to attempt compensation from them in the form of some 083 heads and free work done at a professional shop of my choice.

If anyone can provide dyno charts showing the differences then please do. I feel like I got screwed and I'm going to make their lives miserable if I don't get what I want. Which is factory L98 performance.

Cruzin Kaz

193 head are crap!@ They only bear 1.84 valves compared to the 1.94's of the 083 heads which are proper for the L98 engines. This guy dicked you a bit by the sounds od it, or plain out he didn't have a clue himself. Swirlport heads are crap! I am sorry to hear you got ripped like that , but yeah get those off of there, and get some 083's on. You might as well have some work done to the 083 while it is all apart to, like port and polish, gasket match the intake and the heads, and if you can afford it get the heads machined for 2.02 and 1.6 valves. You should then see a good improvement.

FruityOne

I don't have 083 heads, and I damn well won't pay for a set of heads I should have had on the reman in the first PLACE!!


Thats why I want proof. Because I'm going to them, and if they don't honor their word then the Attourney General is getting a call and they will expect a call from the Federal Trade Comission.

If the engine doesn't perform as a stock factory engine than how can it be considered a stock replacement.

Read up on Mortec, according to Mortec the 193's have the same port sizes as the 083 heads, so that argument won't hold when I'm on the phone with the Attourney General. What I need is either Dyno charts, OR even better would be flow bench charts of the heads.

Flow benches of the two heads would be the ultimate proof that they are not interchangable. Which is what I'm going to need because I can pretty much guess that they won't honor their word. I guessed that in talking with them today.

Cruzin Kaz

Well I just looked it over, and I made a mistake, as the 193 cast heads in fact do have 1.94/1.5 valves, the only realy difference then is the CC of the chamber, and the actual flow rate. I can't help you with any dyno sheets, but facts are facts. No L98 engine ever came factory with 193 cast heads.

FruityOne

If anyone knows where to get flow bench data on the two heads listed, PLEASE post.

On a normal spec sheet they LOOK identicle. The only way I'll have a chance of winning is if I can prove that the 193 heads don't flow the same as the 083 heads. Once I do that the FTC, and Attourney General will MAKE them fix it. And they won't have a choice or they will suffere some pretty heavy fines.

FruityOne

Someone brought this up and I wanted to see if anyone was willing to do it.

Would anyone be willing to use Desktop Dyno, or similar software to find the differences between the 083 heads, and the 193 heads on a L98 block with a stock TPI intake, and stock cam?

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Some people should not post about things they know nothing about! When you don't have actual experience you really don't know jack.
I keep hearing this stuff about 193's being junk, but I personally cleaned up a set, did a little bowl work and with a LT1 cam made 250hp to the rear wheels with a 350 (it ran 13.7 @ 100.53) (grins)

FruityOne

Problem though. I should NOT Have had to do anything to these heads to get my car into the 14's. I should be there STOCK.

My 87mph trap speed is too damn low to account for driver error. Why do so many people hate these heads if they are good heads? There must be a reason then.

And I won't even consider porting these heads. I paid for an L98 rebuild, and L98's had 083 heads, not 193's.

Dyno Don

iTrader: (7)

Neither 083's or 193's are very good.
I understand your situation but if I was going to tear into the engine I damn sure wouldn't put 083's on it.

kfoley

I also have a set of ported 193's on my truck. I cut the "swirls" down to the top of the valve guide and enlarged the bowls as well as the usual runner work. The motor isn't broken in all the way in yet, but from what I can tell it pulls a lot harder than it did stock (of course the slightly larger cam helps too). You can get these heads to flow, it just takes a bit of work.

I would not use these heads when building a performance motor either. I would go with a good set of aftermarket heads (AFR, Dart, World, Topline, etc.).

To get back to the real problem, they should give you 083 heads since those were the stock heads and it was a direct replacement motor.

Cruzin Kaz

LOL!! Yeah ok Don. Read on before you post! On a side note! If you belevie that the 083 are no better the the 193 then we all now know, who knows JACK! Funny everyone said you were a nice guy. Maybe everyone else is wrong too!

Cruzin Kaz

oops

Cruzin Kaz

BTW Don...I have plenty of expeirence. This is what I do.

FruityOne

Put the flames out, this thread is here because I WILL be using it to help the Attorney General get me the correct heads for my L98. I've contacted the company S&S Auto Remanufactueres, and I may not have to go through Attorney General to get my 083 heads, but I'm not paying a damn cent for them.

All I want is stock performance right now. I'll do bolt ons later, and such. But I hadn't planned on touching the internals for at least a year so that any defects in the engine could not be attributed to anything I have done.

Cruzin Kaz

Sorry man! I appoligize, I just don't like negative garbage as such. I am glad to hear you may not have to deal with the courts, but they should have to reinstall the new parts for you, but that may be a no no, as they may have bad feeling towards you, and make things worse. Take it in stride, and I hope it all comes together for you. Make sure they supply you with new head gaskets etc. to allow the change over without any cost to you.

vwdave

Chances are, they gave you a 350 Caprice motor....

FruityOne

Mwahahahahah! I am KING!!!

I'm getting a set of 083 heads shipped to my door, no charge. I did run into one snag though, and this is going to complicate things. Though, they don't have a set of 083's ready right now. They have to get a set in to remachine them.

The company won't ship the 083 heads to me until they have the 193's on my car back in their possession. Which I understand, they've already proven that they will ship the heads. The problem is that I don't have another car to drive while I wait for the shipping turn around. :*(

8Mike9

That's a drag. I think I'd also be demanding a gasket kit as well...why should you have to spend 40-50 bucks for their mistake?

Plus, they should be paying the return shipping too, as well as packaging. Figure another 50 bucks to ship the heads, and you'll need to pack them well in a wood crate.

Dante93GTZ

iTrader: (5)

Are you being required to remove them yourself or are they paying for the swap?

kfoley

You won't have to crate them up to ship them. Best way to do it is wrap them in some old carpet and box them up. If you don't have access to old carpet you can wrap them in a couple thick layers of cardboard and box them up. I've recieved 3 sets of heads in the mail, and they all arrived in perfect shape.

Also, make sure the heads you get have been pressure tested and magnafluxed. The castings are sometimes cracked.

FruityOne

They said they will provide gaskets for the swap but I have to do it myself. I understand that this may possibly void my warrenty but I'm going to have a my mechanic put up a fake receipt for the time being, I don't anticipate having problems with the engine. Other than having the wrong heads its been running great.

I found a deal on another set of L98 heads, I think I'll just buy them, have them ported, valve stem seals/springs/retainer....etc replaced and put those heads on the car. Then turn around and sell the 083 heads that came in the mail for a buck. But it'll be a while before I do that, I'll keep those heads for a while if thats the case.

Never underestimate the power of an angry customer. Especially me, I'm a bastard when it comes to it. Shops will squirm and wriggle to get out of it, but in the end I usually win because I go higher and higher up the chain of command.

fakeyankee

Hey FruityOne....... Hope that company made good on those heads !! Just want to give you a heads up and a sound piece of advice........... Never admit to attempting to commit a fraudulant act in writting ie " Have your mechanic write up a fake reciept " to cover voiding your warrenty. Dude, you don't know who views these boards and if seen by the wrong eyes........could really void any chance of successful litigation in a court of law. That is, if you were to take matters that far. Not trying to be a smartass, just want to let you know that your anger might have let you write things that should remain unwritten !!! Just lookin out for fellow 3rd Gen'rs. Please take no offense. Good Luck with your motor !!

FruityOne

I personally don't care who reads this, they know I don't have a high opinion of them anymore. They don't know my username, they don't even know what car I have. All they know is that I had a L98 TPI engine, and thats not what they sold me.

I'm done with them, if something goes wrong with the engine then I'm screwed anyways. I'd have to SHIP the engine back to them if it was that bad.

I'm well aware of legalese, I wouldn't be so successful at returning things if I didn't know my consumer rights.