Guys,
So i'm getting a stroker built for my car, or so i think. In the past several weeks I have become very frustrated with what this shop has been telling me. First off, i was told they were going to be running a 4130 forged crank, that can handle like 7000 rpm and about 700 hp. Now, were gonna be running a 4340 cast iron crank that can only handle about 6000 rpm and considerably less horsepower. I need to know if im getting played.

Pretty much heres my thing, i just want a decent stroker build. Something that can give me about 400 ponies and sound pretty mean. Now, the shop told me since i dont want some super crazy engine to go with the 4340, becuase the 4130 is considerably more money. But as far as my block goes, im boring it 0.30 over. Also, the shop told me i can never run and better intake or heads on my engine, cause ill blow my crank up. Is this true? Look, i dont want to become a tool, and id raher get my car back now, before he starts the build this week.

From what I understand, the top end of a motor is pretty important becuase thats where all the power comes from. Id hate to build a stroker and not be able to have a sick *** top end to go with it. Please help me guys, i need it bad.

Thanks, 3rd

 

Get it outta there and change shops or start reading how to do it yourself...... it's not that hard.
The fact that they have changed the story on you is rediculous.
Are they telling you want you want or are You telling them what you want?
Shops love guys that have no idea what they are after...... and make tons of $$$ that way!!!!
Figure out what you want from your car!!!! Drag car? Street car?
Did the price drop when they told you about the crank change????
You'll probably never be able to run upto 7000 RPM (due to your intake) but that's not the problem!!!!!

These guys are on crack if they're telling you that you can never upgrade your top end because you'll screw up your crank!!!! A 4340 steel crank is stronger than your stock 1010 steel crank...!!! Eagle 4340 Forged SmallBlock cranks are rated upto 1000Hp and cost $659 vs a cast steel Eagle crank rated upto 500 Hp and cost $189
And Yes it's your Heads, Intake and Cam that will make power....... Get it outta there!!! These guys are trying to SCREW YOU!!!!

By the way....What price did they quote you??? and was it a detailed price list of the build-up with part #'s etc....? That's what I thought........ Been there!!! Now I do it myself.

 

Well first off if they are saving you money for the crank change then why not. You must have told the guy you only wanted 400hp like you just posted. The plan is the most important step in a build hands down. If you had a solid plan then their would be no reason to change it. The guy at the shop could be telling you right per your plan if your just rattling out random parts you conjure up in a day.

I have been planing my build for months now, & still dont have everything set in stone. Sounds like you need to pull the car out of the shop, do some research then put it back in. Lets face it. If you had done it then you would not be here asking about it while the car is in the shop. Take it out ASAP. Nothing wrong with wanting it done, & dont feel bad about pulling it out. Its the shops job to make sure the car is going to run good after its all said and done. However its not their job to read your mind in order to come up with your dream motor.

 

My thing is guys, i dont know about engines. This is all jibberish to me. I dont know what cams do, or rocker arms, or the heads and this and that....AHHHHHHHH!!!

Look, all I told the shop is hey, im a college student. I want a nice stroker build that can get my through college, and give me a nice little street machine. When i get out of college, is when ill go back and make a BEAST. But right now, this is what i wanted.

Yes, the price did drop when he changed the crank. He said the crank and the kit he was gonna get was gonna be about 1900 dollars, and now it dropped to around 750-800. He quoted me the highest (thats with the boring, tuning, balancing, and porting and matching the heads) at about 5000, and the lowest at around 3800.

For now, because i didnt want to go like super full blown, im not doing to much to my top end, and if i want more power i can come back. This is when he stopped me and said that the cast iron 4340 crank wont handle it. See im confused? I build computers, not cars. I would love to sit down and crank out an engine like i can a computer, but i wouldnt even know where to start.

My only down side is I know that he did take my engine out and apart and said he was gonna have some specialist look at the journals, because he found metal shavings in the pan. I ono wtf those are, but im scared guys.....!!

 

If you want 400 Hp you can run a cast steel unit which can handle 500hp.... the whole stroker kit will cost $800 (Crank,Rods,Pistons with Rings & Bearings and Harmonic Balancer)
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...8&autoview=sku

Pull the car outta there and start doin the research...... Heads, Cams, Intakes.
https://www.thirdgen.org/mods2
https://www.thirdgen.org/mods3

These three factors (Cams,Heads,Intakes) are gonna determine what your Hp results are, not so much the bottom end. Your crank and rods do have to hold the power that you do eventually make... without becoming a granade!!!
Good Luck!!!!

 

A grenade!!!! Oh ****!!!!! Well here goes nothing.

 

Ouch...... well the engines out...... ummm even $3800.oo is a ton of $$$ for me but was it broken in the first place???

A stroker will make more power due to the extra cubic inches but with the same original Heads and cam you won't see much of a difference for the cash you're gonna spend....... But I guess it is peace of mind.
I don't know why he's callin a specialist in to see the journals????
The crank will be new and he's gonna have to line bore the main journals....? That's what measuring tools are for...?

Hope the reading comes in handy....
Hope you don't get screwed!!!!!

 

Im really scared to Sammy. One this is he told me H-beam Rods, and i look at these kits, and none of the less expensive kits come with those. That all have I-beam rods. UGH, **** my life. I dont know if this is depressing or sad, but in any matter, maybe i should just have him stock rebuild it, and not worry about it til i get done with college.

 

Just tell them that before they start collecting parts they must give you a detailed list with part #'s and prices..... make sure that they know not to proceed without you signing off on it!!!

Bring your dad, uncle, cousin, or friend with you so it's not his word verses yours.
Tell them you wanna think about your recipe before anything starts goin together.
Don't worry...... there are certain things that they will have to do anyways..... clean, measure, bore, deck...... and in the meantime you can get some things straight.

Books to read:
1) John Lingenfelter on Modifying Small-Block Chevy Engines

2)Camaro & Firebird Performance Handbook. by Peter C. Sessler

3)"High Performance Chevy Small Block Cylinder Heads" by Graham Hanson
It covers Airflow basics,
Rebuilding and Assembly,
Porting Tips and Techniques,
Factory and Aftermarkets Heads,
and FlowBench Tests

4)"How to Build and Modify Chevrolet Small-Block V8 Camshafts and Valvetrains" by David Vizard.
It has: A Comprehensive Guide to Selecting Camshafts for your Engine,
How to Build Horsepower for Street and Race Performance,
Camshaft Profile and Timing Test Comparisons,
Valvetrain Selection and Interchange for Bulletproof Top Ends

 

Oh yeah, don't forget to see the engine put together before they close the oilpan and put the cylinder heads on it.......

A very close friend of mine had a "Respectable RaceShop" rebuild his Rocket block for his '68 Cutlass. He paid top dollar for the parts and the work, but when the engine started leaking he pulled it apart to find out that the shop totally burnt him.
The Flat top pistons were never there, the H-beam rods were never there, the 2.02/1.60" valves weren't there... so on and so forth.....

So make sure if he says "this" is goin in that it's really there......
Most people just trust that it will be...... especially since your paying big bucks.

The shop is counting on the fact that you'll never take it apart. You got them to do it in the first place right?

 

Yeah that's the other thing they haven't given me a parts list yet. I know that I'll have to get my dad involved in this. It's sad that I know now my car will have to sit longer but I think it's now time for me to sit down and read all about it and figure this out.

I know with some research I can do it and do it correctly. So I will offically post pone building on my engine, and do research. If I need to I'll consult with you on here. Thanks sammy.

 

Okay. Well I know he's gonna be taking pictures for me. But yeah I'll have them let me see it before they close it all up. That's a good idea I never even thought of that hahahaha ohh man people are shiffty.

 

Fortunately not everyone's shifty...... and maybe you have a good shop there.......
But there are alot of scammers just waiting for a sucker to come along!!!!

Use these different web pages as a baseline to see where your $$$ is goin

There are a ton of places that you can get a 350 short block from.....(Block,Crank,Rods,Pistons and all the bearings) 383 as well for that matter.... Google it!!!!
Most run of the mill engines will hold until your making over 500Hp @ the engine. To make more power than that your putting Nitrous or Boost to it..... IMO

http://www.ledfordperformance.org/re...y_engines.html

This 383 is $2600 with heads and cam and intake...... put it in and drive it away..
http://www.rebuiltcrateengines.com/c...ne-p-2104.html

This 350 "Long Block" is $1500 plug in and play.....
http://www.rebuiltcrateengines.com/c...ne-p-2099.html

http://www.precisionengine.com/rebui...nes/index.html

Bring your dad with you and make him "THE HEAVY", your paying them alot of $$$$ and don't neeed to be ripped off. If your dad doesn't know cars well start googling and searching engine combo's here....
Don't trust pictures, it could be someone else's block that he's takin pics of....

My engine made 412 Hp @ the engine (330@ the wheels) on a stock bottom end, with more to be had....... power comes from the top end.....
Don't let them dictate where things are goin......
Get the "Tentative" parts list

 

Another one.... in California

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CHEVY...ht_1547wt_1092

 

Oh yeah fersher dude. So im going to call the shop today and tell them to hold off on the build until i decide the build for my engine. And before they start the build i want a parts list with prices, that way i can see what they are putting in it.

But my other option is buying that long block and just starting fresh? But as far as that one 350 long block goes, i don't wanna run carb'd, couldnt i just switch my TPI over to that? See all things im starting to reason about doing.

And i dont think hes a shifty guy.

 

Well it seems that you now have a better idea about what you should do. Pulling it out of the shop is the best thing to do in your case. Your looking to get ripped off if you don't. Worse yet, the guy has to know your ripe for the taking now. However if you do want to save face, just tell the guy that you need a better plan. Also you can have the guy bore, strip,& clean the block so you can have it ready. I have never been in this situation before, but I know their is some sort of spray that you can coat the clean motor with. That will stop any rust in the mean time. Also set it on a stand when you get it home, & cover it in plastic.

 

Yeah it does. Sammy's really been helping me out a lot. In the mean time i called the shop and talked to the guy. Hes cool with holding off, and he said its preferable if we get a GM 4 bolt main block anyway, because its stronger. He said he can get one for about 150, if not I pitched him the idea of buying the long block and he said that's another good thing to do. So hes cool with me changing my mind. But as far as i know its on hold now.

 

I called the shop, which is like maybe 45 minutes from my house. The guy was cool, but he said if i wanted to run a TPI system then I would have to switch my heads to some edlebrock heads. He said the reason is the heads on this don't have some sort of exhaust cross over and the that the TPI intake manifolds bolt angles is different. Its about another 650 for those heads so it bumps the engine up to 3300 roughly he said.

 

Well he's right on the money with the bolt angle on the TPI intake face/Heads. But you should be able to use any one peice rear main seal block. Some will say that the 4 bolt main is no stronger than the 2 bolt, I think that it's added insurance......

You can buy a short block (ie- Block, Crank, Rods, Pistons) cheaper than a long-block (ie-everything the short block is + Cam, Intake and Heads) and re-use your L-98 heads once they are ported & polished and rebuilt.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...3&autoview=sku

But to tell you the truth............ buying a good set of aluminum heads are almost the same price as rebuilding your old ones and you'll end up with a much better product.

The cam is the next step..... read the page about camshafts..... a 383 will handle more duration than a 350 but if you go bigger than 210/220 (on a 350) you'll end up needing computer work.... I do!

Just when you thought one question was answered another one rears it's ugly head.

 

So i talked to the shop today, and we sat down and discussed every thing today to give a jist, here it is:

GM 4-bolt main block
bored 0.30+, decked and honed
5140 steel crank
3.750 stroke
5.7 inch rods
forged I beam rods
-18.00cc pistons
redone heads completely
ported, polished, and matched
1.6 and 2.02
256/262 duration .565 lift cam
BBK 58 Dual gate throttle body
SLP intake runners (Siamese later)
Some kind of headers (with a thick flange)

Wadda ya think?

all for around 4500-4800. He has to get me the price sheet before he is allowed to do the build, that way my pops can see it.

 

Check your Private Messages.....

is that Cam Duration @ .5o or advertized duration??? there is a difference.

 

I talked to the shop, ima run this cam instead:
http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ode=RLERCAMXFI

 

That cam would be a super stump puller in a 383........
Go back and read the Camshaft Link I posted by Paul Huryk then read the mods 2 link I posted, also by Paul Huryk. They may help to explain things alittle better.

A good cam on a 350, like the XFI 260 or XFI 268 might seem small in as 383 and make peak power lower in it's RPM range. Don't get me wrong I love torque and that cam in a 383 will smoke tires for blocks!!!!!! And make very usable power in your normal driving range (30-50 Mph/1500-3000RPM)

 

Sammy,
I am honeslty confused when i try to read the cam shaft page. I dont want to put a crappy *** cam into my 383, because then it wont produce power when i want it to. Do you think you can give me some suggestions that will give me good mid range horsepower and good hi end power. You know my limit for RPM's is only up to 6000, so something that will work. Oh, and if you can, something that will make it kinda lopey,. I mean, it does have to sound mean after all.

-3rd

 

The funny thing is your limit for RPM's isn't 6000 Rpm with the type of intake you have on it.... even if you put a larger TPI intake like a SLP you'll have a hard time getting to 6000 RPM.
Did you ever get your 350 engine upto 6000 RPM, I couldn't..... cause it can't breathe that high.... Get the largest flowing Intake base and Runners for the 383 because it now requires more air, then your heads become the bottleneck.
As far as Camshafts go.... a 383 will handle a larger cam better than a 350.... but only slightly (it's only 33 cubic inches). All three of these cams will outlift the max on your heads, so your heads will need to be worked over abit.

1)The XFI 260 would probably have too much torque and spin the tires all the time in a TPI 383. Not to mention it would run out of RPM around 5000. This cam is very close to mine with almost the same duration and a little more lift and I achieved 330WRHp / 349FtLbs Tq with awesome cylinder heads!!! and Great breathing Holley Stealth Ram!!! (The dyno results are out there)
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=207&sb=0
2) The XFI 268 is a great choice for a built 350 so it should work well with a TPI 383. The displacement of the 383 should make up for any loss in lower RPM Torque that can happen with the higher duration and yet the powerband will top out around 5800, if the intake will let it.
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=208&sb=0
3) This cam the XFI 280 is a great cam for a 383 it has a 2000-6000 RPM powerband in a 350. Therefore in a 383 you could shift that powerband down a little.
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=209&sb=0

Remember you'll have to do computer/prom tuning to get them to run well, but there's lots of guys out there (in Cali) that can help. Then exhaust too!

A TPI (The Intake) is made for low and midrange power. It was developed for a 305 and is small on the 350 and chokes it off so badly that you only pull till 4700 RPM. A 383 exacerbates this breathing issue/problem. So get the largest Intake that you can. Edelbrock (port it), SLP (port it), Arizona Speed and Marine Runners with A Hogged out base.

On a side note, you know how you could spin the tires till second gear with the tired original engine..... it had a 9.5 Compression ratio when new, with a 207/213 duration and .415/.430 lift.

 

This is a post from one of the "TPI Moderators" Kevin91Z here @ Thirdgen.org He was giving you insight from a previous question you posted about your blown L98 and perspective 383 build. "350Hp stroker 383"
What more is there to say......


"383's dont work with TPI engines, as the 383's extra torque combined with the TPI's extra torque make for a very tempermental engine that has more torque then you can possibly use. 383's are for short runner intakes like carbs, or the Holley Stealth Ram or TPIS MiniRam. Neither one has an EGR setup (unless you get the EGR add-on from TPIS), so they're not smog-legal for California. You can save the money for the 383 kit and build a regular 350, getting better heads that will run circles around a stock 383 rebuild. We here in SoCal have built several 350ci TPI engines that run 12 second ET's, get 20+ MPG, pass CA's smog, and most importantly, beat LS1's. Dyno Don is our head mechanic, but unfortunately he has a year-long backlog because he's so in demand.

So, in summary, forget about a 383, and spend the money on a 350 engine with good heads, a roller cam, headers, and ported and siamesed TPI intake. You can see my results in the sticky thread above: "Our Quest for a Better Flowing TPI."
__________________

Read this again.....https://www.thirdgen.org/mods2

 

Why not just get a crate motor?????? Year One has a 400hp/400tq crate for under 3 grand.
https://www.yearone.com/serverfiles/...155%2BRace%2B9

 

I think im going to do that. Just get a long block and get some nice heads, cams, and exhaust.

 

That's great and all but it has Vortec Cylinder Heads.....

You can get a 1 pc rear main block for $750 bucks (GM Performance Parts)
A rotating assembly (crank, rods, pistons and rings with all the bearings for like $650. (Eagle Specialty Products)
Get great flowing Aluminum heads $900 from Summit ($1400 Air Flow Research/Edelbrock/Trick Flow)
A roller cam $300
and large base and runners (port them) $750......
For a total of $3300 give or take......

Oh what ever!!!!! Nothing comes cheap!!!!
I say no more.....

 

You mean short block. You need a summit or jegs book. They have a few motors long or short block. Short blocks have just the bottom end. Long blocks have most everything you need. Good thing about a long block is that you get the motor matched so all you need to do is choose how much power you want for the most part. Its all new stuff built by people that know what they are doing.

If you want to go big then jegs has a zz383 stroker for just over 5k, with aluminum heads pushing 425 hp/ 460 tq. That my friend would be all the power your Camaro would need for a long time. Further more if that motor would work for you then it will be even faster if you build your rear end, & the rest of your suspension, so more power goes to the road. If you did all that in the mean time, it would feel like you added 100 hp or more. Lol you dont want no one wheel peel for 5 miles. You want to put it down, & take off like a jet.

 

Okay guys what about this......hahahaha the shop is gonna be mad at me for changing my mind again.

What if i use the same block from my fire bird. The block isn't bad. So like have it cleaned and whatever. then from summit buy like a 350 kit. Then go ahead and get heads, cams, and exhaust.

Like it'll be a nice mild built car with some decent horspower, then i can always come back when i get money and just like make this thing syupid fast. Im liking what kevin said. "20 MPG". That sounds good to me.

 

Whatever you want dude. But for 5k you can have the power now. if its cheep to do it like your saying with the "new" set up, do it that way then. One thing to think about is if you know your going to do it anyways, and the shop about had you talked out of almost 5k for a so so motor then why not do it now & save money from having to buy some parts twice. sounds like you need a second car if you worry about mpg. I have five.

 

Yeah exactly, but i live like on campus so i ride my bike here, or long board. When i go home its like not even that long of a drive. But why could it be cool to have that, a street machine that gets okay mileage.

But for this build i have a question, whats the major difference between aluminum heads and cast iron. Like i know that aluminum is lighter and can dissipate heat quicker, but does it add horse power. I'm saying this because whats wrong with these heads, http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku. I was reading about them, they are long intake runner heads with a valve train of 1.6 & 2.02. They allow for a .520 lift (with stock valve springs) and they have 67cc combustion chambers. Couldn't i find a bottom end kit with pistons that are -5.00cc and itll make it a 62cc chamber which would help with mpg.

This brings me to my next questions. Im going to be keping that block he said he can get for 150. The 4 bolt main 1 piece rear seal, for like 150. If i am saving the money from everything else, i know that summit has a ESP kit for a stock 350 build with a 4340 crank for like 1400. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...3&autoview=sku

So thats about 2000 right there, or i can find a less expensive set and save about 50% of that cost. But im also plainng of getting some sort of CAM (i offically hate cams), a BBK Dual 58MM TPI throttle body, SLP runners (Siamese later), and headers, plus a chip.

Wadda you think?

 

I think you have knocked the price down pretty good. The best part about the aluminum heads is the weight savings. Saves very little on mpg. Also taking off weight makes for a faster car. If you are going to build the car up more later, then get the heads you want now atleast that will be something that you will not have to upgrade later. if you want it slower to save some mpg's then a smaller cam will work for that. The cam is a huge power adder, that will not cost much to swap later. So you can have nice heads, and a small cam that will keep the power down. But dont buy two sets of heads. That would be pretty dumb, unless your made of money. Also the heads do not have to be aluminum. They are more for the guys that have the money, & want every little gain on the market. just for the heck of it lets say you have steel heads. You run them down the strip to get a 12.89 pass. You put the aluminum heads on, & run a 12.79-12.82. their is your weight savings. Its up to you what you want your car to be in the end. But like I said two sets of heads would be crazy. Do some port work to the ones you have if you want to hold off on any heads. That will help a lot.

 

OR what about these heads, http://store.summitracing.com/partde...0&autoview=sku. They are everything i would want to do to my L98 heads, but its already done.

 

OK on the heads, but Just Ok. They dont flow very good. The intake is only 165cc. Also you do know that the $325 price tag is for only one head right. Since you need two it will cost you around $700 shipped. You need more info if you want to get it right. My car is a 305 so its too small to have had to do any looking as far as 350 heads go. Do some searching on this site. If you get lazy you can just post a new. Title it something like "what would be a good cheep head for my 350tpi" Tell people what your looking for. You will find it then.

 

Sammy,
Whats a suggestions on those heads you said from summit, the 900 dollar aluminum cylinder heads?

I cant find any.

Ohhhh p.s. what about his cam http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=208&sb=0