TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
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TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Soon I'll be pulling the 350 out of my IROC and replacing it with a 403 cube LS motor:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...d-85-iroc.html
The 350 that's coming out is going to get a mild makeover (read: Cheap) and put into my GTA to replace the ailing 305 that's in it now. I really, really don't want to pour much money into this project because it basically comes right out of my LS-swap budget, plus there's a good chance that I'll be selling the GTA eventually, and I won't recoup my expenses.
First, some background on the motor:
The motor is a 2 bolt 350 block from the early 70s. I built it in the mid 90s. It's got a stock .010-.010 turned crank, stock rods, and forged flat top TRW pistons. The cam is a summit grind, 214/224 .442/.465 112lsa. Current heads are 461 fuelie heads. Induction consists of an Accel TPI base, slightly ported SLP runners, port matched plenum, 52mm throttle body and 24lb SVO injectors. Exhaust is a set of 1 5/8" shorty headers with corresponding Y-pipe, and 3" single exhaust going through a straight-thru Dynomax Ultra Flow muffler. Trans is a WC T5. All of this will be transferred to the GTA with the motor.
So, on to my head dilemma. I already have a set of used SDPC Vortecs that have had the valve guides machined to allow for up to .550 lift. So, in keeping with my *very* low budget upgrade, this gives me two, perhaps 3 potential options:
1. Buy SDPC vortec base for $400 and use vortec heads. With gaskets and parts, figure $500-550 total cost.
2. Buy used 113 heads for ~$400 and use all other existing parts. With gaskets and other parts, figure ~$500-550.
3. I could get a set of the Procomp 190cc heads from Skip White or similar vendor. I'm really not sure this is the path I want to take. In addition to concerns over reliability with these heads, I also don't think their larger intake volume combined with their modest flow numbers are really going to be a good head to use in a low rpm TPI type of setup.
4. Lastly, I'm also considering the Vortecs with a stealth ram. The stealth ram isn't a lot more than the SDPC vortec base, but I'm shying away from this because I don't want to give up the TPI torque, and I also don't want to cut the underside of my hood to make it fit. It also seems that this combo would be best suited with a cam swap, which drives me up to nearly 2x the cost of the other options.
With any of these options, I'm also considering possibly upgrading to 1.6 rockers, or possibly a higher lift flat tappet cam, but that's an unknown at this point.
So, in keeping with my super tight budget requirements, what one of my 3 options (or potentially a new option) would you think is the best route? Does anybody have some real world 1/4 mile and/or dyno numbers with any similar combos? I want to try and avoid bench racing type of discussions and stick with real world results.
Right now my car puts down 250 RWHP on a Mustang Dyno with 331 torque, and runs 13.6 @ 101 in the 1/4. I'd love to be able to get into the 300 RWHP range, and/or high 12 second 1/4s if I can. Ultimately my budget dictates my final results, but within my budget, I'm trying to figure out which option will get me closest.
Thanks
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/ltx-...d-85-iroc.html
The 350 that's coming out is going to get a mild makeover (read: Cheap) and put into my GTA to replace the ailing 305 that's in it now. I really, really don't want to pour much money into this project because it basically comes right out of my LS-swap budget, plus there's a good chance that I'll be selling the GTA eventually, and I won't recoup my expenses.
First, some background on the motor:
The motor is a 2 bolt 350 block from the early 70s. I built it in the mid 90s. It's got a stock .010-.010 turned crank, stock rods, and forged flat top TRW pistons. The cam is a summit grind, 214/224 .442/.465 112lsa. Current heads are 461 fuelie heads. Induction consists of an Accel TPI base, slightly ported SLP runners, port matched plenum, 52mm throttle body and 24lb SVO injectors. Exhaust is a set of 1 5/8" shorty headers with corresponding Y-pipe, and 3" single exhaust going through a straight-thru Dynomax Ultra Flow muffler. Trans is a WC T5. All of this will be transferred to the GTA with the motor.
So, on to my head dilemma. I already have a set of used SDPC Vortecs that have had the valve guides machined to allow for up to .550 lift. So, in keeping with my *very* low budget upgrade, this gives me two, perhaps 3 potential options:
1. Buy SDPC vortec base for $400 and use vortec heads. With gaskets and parts, figure $500-550 total cost.
2. Buy used 113 heads for ~$400 and use all other existing parts. With gaskets and other parts, figure ~$500-550.
3. I could get a set of the Procomp 190cc heads from Skip White or similar vendor. I'm really not sure this is the path I want to take. In addition to concerns over reliability with these heads, I also don't think their larger intake volume combined with their modest flow numbers are really going to be a good head to use in a low rpm TPI type of setup.
4. Lastly, I'm also considering the Vortecs with a stealth ram. The stealth ram isn't a lot more than the SDPC vortec base, but I'm shying away from this because I don't want to give up the TPI torque, and I also don't want to cut the underside of my hood to make it fit. It also seems that this combo would be best suited with a cam swap, which drives me up to nearly 2x the cost of the other options.
With any of these options, I'm also considering possibly upgrading to 1.6 rockers, or possibly a higher lift flat tappet cam, but that's an unknown at this point.
So, in keeping with my super tight budget requirements, what one of my 3 options (or potentially a new option) would you think is the best route? Does anybody have some real world 1/4 mile and/or dyno numbers with any similar combos? I want to try and avoid bench racing type of discussions and stick with real world results.
Right now my car puts down 250 RWHP on a Mustang Dyno with 331 torque, and runs 13.6 @ 101 in the 1/4. I'd love to be able to get into the 300 RWHP range, and/or high 12 second 1/4s if I can. Ultimately my budget dictates my final results, but within my budget, I'm trying to figure out which option will get me closest.
Thanks
Last edited by Jim85IROC; Nov 7, 2011 at 03:43 PM.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I vote for the Vortecs. 113's actually flow pretty lousy stock and the Chinese heads make me nervous. Some good info here: http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...fo/heads1.html
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
i would definitely go with the vortec head route.... vortec heads outflow the 113 for sure.... i would just get the base and sell my accel base on here or on ebay to recoupe alot of the money spent on the vortec base or use that money and buy a better cam.... something similar in duration of the summit cam you got now but closer to .520 in lift would help out alot... i would go with a duration like 218/224 or something..... that would be a nice tpi combo and should be able to hit your goals...
Last edited by 88fastgta; Nov 14, 2011 at 12:43 AM.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Aren't the vortecs going to get choked by the lousy flowing base? That's the problem... lousy flowing 113s or lousy flowing vortec base. Either one winds up restricting airflow. But, at least with the vortecs, I have the option to change to a different induction setup later on (read: Vortec stealth ram).
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
yea the base flows worse than the accel base you have now... it looks like your making your iroc quite the machine there... since thats going to be your fast car i would use the vortec heads and buy the vortec base and keep your gta a nice mild tpi build if it was me..nothing looks better than that nice tpi on top of a sbc... no need of having two fast cars : )... just have the gta a "stockish" mild build
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Car: 85 IROC-Z / 88 GTA
Engine: 403 LSx (Pending) / 355 Tuned Port
Transmission: T56 Magnum (Pending) / T5
Axle/Gears: 3.42 / ?
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
yea the base flows worse than the accel base you have now... it looks like your making your iroc quite the machine there... since thats going to be your fast car i would use the vortec heads and buy the vortec base and keep your gta a nice mild tpi build if it was me..nothing looks better than that nice tpi on top of a sbc... no need of having two fast cars : )... just have the gta a "stockish" mild build
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I'm a pro at this. Keep the 113's and do a decent port job on them, get a SLP 219 cam and port the base a little more. You will have close to 360whp. No joke. The Corvette guys has that combo with a 383cu Super Ram running high 11's@117mph in the 1/4mi. Also get a set of Dyno Don Headers to cap it off. They have 1 3/4in tubes shorties with a ball-in-socket collector(no gasket needed). And they are easy to install and fit all types of small block heads. The Vortec base flows as much as a stock base(no good). Accel base is the best base out there. But if you don't want it I'll buy it from you.
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Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
Engine: 355 w/AFR 195's Elem. 400/430 HP/TQ
Transmission: Tremec T-56
Axle/Gears: 12 Bolt 3.73
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Having done both....
I suggest you do the Vortec heads, do a little work on the intake ports (square them up, same on the manifold).
Do the regular porting on the Vortec manifold, clean up the shortside radius on the exhaust port on the heads.
No flat tappet cams, they will go flat without proper oil additives.
My headers ( I will take your manifold in part trade on them) 3" catback exhaust, Magnaflow muffler & wella more power than you could imagine.
I suggest you do the Vortec heads, do a little work on the intake ports (square them up, same on the manifold).
Do the regular porting on the Vortec manifold, clean up the shortside radius on the exhaust port on the heads.
No flat tappet cams, they will go flat without proper oil additives.
My headers ( I will take your manifold in part trade on them) 3" catback exhaust, Magnaflow muffler & wella more power than you could imagine.
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From: Readsboro, VT
Car: 85 IROC-Z / 88 GTA
Engine: 403 LSx (Pending) / 355 Tuned Port
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I'm not doing a roller cam retrofit. It's not in the budget. The flat tappet cam that's in there now seems to be doing just fine in it's synthetic oil bath.
Don, as much as I'd like a set of your headers, I'll be sticking with the Heddmans that I already have. With the exception of the head swap, and maybe a new flat tappet cam, the motor is getting swapped over as it is. I'm pissing away a ton of money on the LSx swap in the IROC, and can't really justify spending a lot on the GTA.
But, that aside, thanks to everybody for the suggestions. It's definitely giving me some new perspective on my options.
Don, as much as I'd like a set of your headers, I'll be sticking with the Heddmans that I already have. With the exception of the head swap, and maybe a new flat tappet cam, the motor is getting swapped over as it is. I'm pissing away a ton of money on the LSx swap in the IROC, and can't really justify spending a lot on the GTA.
But, that aside, thanks to everybody for the suggestions. It's definitely giving me some new perspective on my options.
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From: Orange, CA
Car: '90 Trans Am-12.45@110.71
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Sorry Jim,
I didn't noticed the early block.
I did a set of Vortecs for a guy with a '65 Chevelle 350, a while back, carb, headers, cam (flat tappet) etc.
It went 12.00 flat in the 1/4 with just the cleanup on the heads I mentioned.
I would for sure go with the 1.6 rockers.
I didn't noticed the early block.
I did a set of Vortecs for a guy with a '65 Chevelle 350, a while back, carb, headers, cam (flat tappet) etc.
It went 12.00 flat in the 1/4 with just the cleanup on the heads I mentioned.
I would for sure go with the 1.6 rockers.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
The Vortec heads are without a doubt the better head. My problem is that if I go with vortecs, it also means the lousy flowing vortec TPI base. With that base, the cam needs to stay pretty mild. I can't possibly see duplicating a 12.0 1/4 mile with this motor due to the TPI, but that's OK. If I could get this thing into the real low 13s or high 12s, and do it with tons of low and midrange torque, I'll be a happy camper.
I'm definitely looking at the 1.6 rockers, but a new cam with a more modern, higher lift profile is actually cheaper than a good set of self aligning roller rockers! Either with a new cam, or 1.6 rockers and the cam I've got, it gets me into the .480-500 valve lift range. A new cam and some cheapo 1.6 rockers could be a possibility.
I'm definitely looking at the 1.6 rockers, but a new cam with a more modern, higher lift profile is actually cheaper than a good set of self aligning roller rockers! Either with a new cam, or 1.6 rockers and the cam I've got, it gets me into the .480-500 valve lift range. A new cam and some cheapo 1.6 rockers could be a possibility.
Last edited by Jim85IROC; Nov 17, 2011 at 09:28 PM.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Jim:
With that base plate and a little porting and SLP runners, I was able to get 12.8 @105.XX in my T/A.
The cam was 225/232 .540/.560 114 LSA
With that base plate and a little porting and SLP runners, I was able to get 12.8 @105.XX in my T/A.
The cam was 225/232 .540/.560 114 LSA
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
It could be, but right now I'm learning toward TPI for a few reasons:
1. I don't want to cut the underside of the hood on my GTA.
2. I don't want to sacrifice the low end torque.
3. I like TPI. I'm going from 3 down to 1 TPI car... I'm hesitant to go from 3 to none. Even though this is a silly reason, it matters to me. That said, it is still a consideration.
1. I don't want to cut the underside of the hood on my GTA.
2. I don't want to sacrifice the low end torque.
3. I like TPI. I'm going from 3 down to 1 TPI car... I'm hesitant to go from 3 to none. Even though this is a silly reason, it matters to me. That said, it is still a consideration.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Just have the base mildly ported for the vortecs. I dont see it completely killing the power potential of this combination since its not an all out effort.
113's shave some weight off the front end tho and wont take much to match vortecs in power department..just need a bit of mild port/bowl clean up work.
113's shave some weight off the front end tho and wont take much to match vortecs in power department..just need a bit of mild port/bowl clean up work.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
If you can port, I would say go with the L98 heads. You loose weight and wont need the special base... you already have one that will work. If not, spring for the Vortecs. They flow better, though in stock form the intake runners are rather small and will limit your peak torque RPM almost as much as the base will in a tuned port application (velocity, wave ramming) though they can support HP at a decent RPM for a stock cube non TPI street engine. They can definitely use some work where the head meets the manifold and where the runners meet the manifold, and I found my 062's needed some work in the throat, cleanup in the bowl, and shortside work on the exhaust as well. Anyway, velocity near the TPI torque peak is part of the reason the vortec heads were supposed to be the hot ticket for a TPI engine, and they do perform well (but not great). Keep in mind stock Vortecs will require work the L98's wont, like enlarging spring pockets, converting to screw in studs or pinning the stockers, and shaving the tops of the guide bosses down.
With that being said, I just finished building my own tuned port 383 L31. Still plenty fun to drive! The Vortec's use the same port as the LT1 which explains why they flow more, they are newer (obviously). I use alot of L31 stuff, though it makes more sense to me; I can do all the conversion work and porting at home.
Dont go with the pro-comps. I wouldn't trust a head like that in any engine I am building. I've heard too many stories of soft casings, seats falling out, inconsistency, poor flow or lower than advertised flow, and poor parts and accociated failures to begin with. Better to spend the extra few bucks and get a better head. They are pretty, but that doesnt mean reliable.
And Dyno Don is right, those flat tappet cams like going flat if you dont run plenty of zinc in the oil. Needs a racing oil or additive to protect those lobes. One of the reasons I like staying with rollers
With that being said, I just finished building my own tuned port 383 L31. Still plenty fun to drive! The Vortec's use the same port as the LT1 which explains why they flow more, they are newer (obviously). I use alot of L31 stuff, though it makes more sense to me; I can do all the conversion work and porting at home.
Dont go with the pro-comps. I wouldn't trust a head like that in any engine I am building. I've heard too many stories of soft casings, seats falling out, inconsistency, poor flow or lower than advertised flow, and poor parts and accociated failures to begin with. Better to spend the extra few bucks and get a better head. They are pretty, but that doesnt mean reliable.
And Dyno Don is right, those flat tappet cams like going flat if you dont run plenty of zinc in the oil. Needs a racing oil or additive to protect those lobes. One of the reasons I like staying with rollers
Last edited by dhirocz; Nov 20, 2011 at 02:04 PM.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I thought it wasn't an issue once they were broken in? Also, isn't it less of an issue with synthetics? This motor has been fed a steady diet of synthetic since it's 2nd oil change, and has been fine so far.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I'm not aware if synthetics have any zinc additive, but I doubt it. I read something about how they pulled the zinc out to cut back on emissions and to save money. Supposedly only oil additives, break in additive and racing oil has it. I know standard oils no longer have it. The way the OEM sees it, everything is roller now so there is no more need for the zinc. Kinda screws over the flat tappet guys. Part of the reason I like to stay roller-I dont like the idea I cant get oil from anywhere if I need it and have the protection the engine needs. I've seen engines with 20-40k wipe out cam lobes for apparently no good reason other than the lack of proper lube.
I would look up the oil you are using and see how many parts per million (ppm) of zinc the oil contains. I dont remember the exact number but I believe the ideal number is 1700.
I would look up the oil you are using and see how many parts per million (ppm) of zinc the oil contains. I dont remember the exact number but I believe the ideal number is 1700.
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I agree that the synthetics don't have additional zinc, but I was under the impression that the benefit of synthetic oils, in addition to their resistance to breaking down (and thus needing to be changed less frequently) was superior lubrication qualities. Perhaps I'm wrong?
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Zink supposedly helps oil stick to the parts better and also helps make the lifters spin on the cam lobes.
Supposedly the synthetics are too slick to make the flat tappet lifters spin properly.
Right or wrong Im not 100% sure but thats just some stuff Ive read from oil companys. Esp the ones selling the zink added brad penn oils. pricey$$
Supposedly the synthetics are too slick to make the flat tappet lifters spin properly.
Right or wrong Im not 100% sure but thats just some stuff Ive read from oil companys. Esp the ones selling the zink added brad penn oils. pricey$$
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Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
It depends on the oil. Not all synthetics have alot of zinc, but some have alot but that doesnt mean much if they have alot of detergents in the oil. They counteract each other.
More anti-wear additves do not protect better, they protect longer. Street oils are rarely changed, race oils are always changed.
All samples were taken from brand new, thoroughly shaken bottles of oil. And all tests were performed at ALS Tribology, formerly Staveley Labs, in Sparks, Nevada.
Royal Purple 10W30 HPS (High Performance Street)
Silicon = 7 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 46 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 3626 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = <1 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3676 ppm
Zinc = 1774 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1347 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 189 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 3310 ppm
Potassium = 11 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 2 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 10.2 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.3 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Royal Purple 5W30 XPR Racing Oil (tested 2 or 3 years ago)
Silicon = 4 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 1 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 10 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 3039 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3050 ppm
Zinc = 1421 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1338 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 204 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2963 ppm
Potassium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 10.9 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.6 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Royal Purple 5W30 API SL
Silicon = 9 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 15 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 1192 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 2745 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3952 ppm
Zinc = 1179 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 985 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 211 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2375 ppm
Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 11.0 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 10.7 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Note: Royal Purple is no longer producing their API SL oils. They have been replaced with a new API SN formulation for new cars.
Castrol 5W30 Edge API SM
Silicon = 5 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 57 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 14 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 3206 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3277 ppm
Zinc = 955 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 799 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 149 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 1903 ppm
Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 10.1 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 9.7 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Castrol 5W30 GTX API SM
Silicon = 8 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 9 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 2969 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 2982 ppm
Zinc = 888 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 873 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 0 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 1761 ppm
Potassium = 8 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 114 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 7.5 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 10.4 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Valvoline 10W40 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil API SJ (tested 2 or 3 years ago)
Silicon = 20 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 137 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 13 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 1849 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 1999 ppm
Zinc = 1154 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1075 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 0 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2229 ppm
Potassium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 126 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 7.1 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 14.6 (cSt range for SAE 40 is 12.5 to 16.2) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Royal Purple 10W30 HPS (High Performance Street)
Silicon = 7 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 46 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 3626 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = <1 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3676 ppm
Zinc = 1774 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1347 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 189 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 3310 ppm
Potassium = 11 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 2 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 10.2 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.3 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Royal Purple 5W30 XPR Racing Oil (tested 2 or 3 years ago)
Silicon = 4 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 1 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 10 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 3039 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3050 ppm
Zinc = 1421 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1338 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 204 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2963 ppm
Potassium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 10.9 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 11.6 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Royal Purple 5W30 API SL
Silicon = 9 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 15 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 1192 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 2745 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3952 ppm
Zinc = 1179 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 985 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 211 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2375 ppm
Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 11.0 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 10.7 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Note: Royal Purple is no longer producing their API SL oils. They have been replaced with a new API SN formulation for new cars.
Castrol 5W30 Edge API SM
Silicon = 5 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 57 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 14 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 3206 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 3277 ppm
Zinc = 955 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 799 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 149 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 1903 ppm
Potassium = <5 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 10.1 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 9.7 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Castrol 5W30 GTX API SM
Silicon = 8 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = <5 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 9 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 2969 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 2982 ppm
Zinc = 888 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 873 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 0 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 1761 ppm
Potassium = 8 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 114 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 7.5 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 10.4 (cSt range for SAE 30 is 9.3 to 12.4) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Valvoline 10W40 4 stroke Motorcycle Oil API SJ (tested 2 or 3 years ago)
Silicon = 20 ppm (anti-foaming agent in new oil, but in used oil, certain gasket materials and dirt can also add to this number)
Boron = 137 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Magnesium = 13 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Calcium = 1849 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Barium = 0 ppm (detergent/dispersant)
Total detergent/dispersant = 1999 ppm
Zinc = 1154 ppm (anti-wear)
Phos = 1075 ppm (anti-wear)
Moly = 0 ppm (anti-wear)
Total anti-wear = 2229 ppm
Potassium = 0 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
Sodium = 126 ppm (anti-freeze inhibitor)
TBN = 7.1 (Total Base Number is an acid neutralizer to prevent corrosion. Most gasoline engine motor oils start with TBN around 8 or 9. And in use, this becomes depleted over time as mileage accumulates)
Viscosity (cSt at 100*C) = 14.6 (cSt range for SAE 40 is 12.5 to 16.2) And cSt (centistokes) in general terms, represents an oil’s thickness.
Putting a "buttload" of anti-wear additives into the blend along with a really high level of detergents (e.g. 3000+ ppm calcium) can be counterproductive, according to what's been posted on LM Engineering's web site:
"... it has been determined in the SAE paper "Oil Development for Nascar" that overly detergent motor oils can block or "clean" the anti-wear films off of engine parts, that is one reason that these oils usually have high levels of anti-wear additives. SAE Technical Paper Series 2007-01-3999, Modern Heavy Duty Engine Oils with Lower TBN Showing Excellent Performance, also show that low detergent packages increase the effectiveness of film formation, just as in racing oils tend to have less aggressive detergent packages..."
That old saying about having too much of a good thing keeps coming to mind.
"... it has been determined in the SAE paper "Oil Development for Nascar" that overly detergent motor oils can block or "clean" the anti-wear films off of engine parts, that is one reason that these oils usually have high levels of anti-wear additives. SAE Technical Paper Series 2007-01-3999, Modern Heavy Duty Engine Oils with Lower TBN Showing Excellent Performance, also show that low detergent packages increase the effectiveness of film formation, just as in racing oils tend to have less aggressive detergent packages..."
That old saying about having too much of a good thing keeps coming to mind.
Last edited by Orr89RocZ; Nov 21, 2011 at 12:47 PM.
Supreme Member
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Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 1,410
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From: Location, Location!
Car: 92 T/A 'vert
Engine: Mild .040 over L98 4 bolt mains
Transmission: Mostly stock 700R4, 2600 Vigilante
Axle/Gears: LS1 3.42
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
A cheap way to up the zinc level is a bottle of good ol' STP.
Member
iTrader: (5)
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 311
Likes: 1
From: Stafford, Connecticut
Car: 87 Iroc
Engine: modified 350
Transmission: high performance built 700R4
Axle/Gears: Strange S60 3:73
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Roller cams benefit from using zinc also.
Supreme Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,528
Likes: 240
From: Henrietta NY
Car: 1984 Trans Am L69
Engine: Sniper EFI Powered 355
Transmission: WC T5 w/ Steel Support Plate
Axle/Gears: 3.42 10 Bolt Posi
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I dont want to get into an oil debate but as of June 27 2011 shell still claims 1200 ppm minimum for zinc in rotella T triple protection. 1200 is similar to older oilds when designed for flat tappet. Newer oild never seem to have more than 800 and most are about 1/2 of that. Run what you want I dont want to get into a debate but at 16 bucks a galon and with lots of zink I like Rotella T.
Supreme Member
iTrader: (9)
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,804
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From: Raleigh, NC
Car: 1988 Flame Red Trans am GTA
Engine: Forged 355 4 Bolt, FIRST TPI
Transmission: 700r4
Axle/Gears: ls1 torsen 3.42 gear
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
soo back to the topic what route did you decide to go with.....
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 938
Likes: 1
From: Hinesville, GA USA
Car: '86 IROC-Z/'94 Z28
Engine: 350 LT1/382 LT1
Transmission: 4L60-E/T-56
Axle/Gears: 3.45/3.42 (soon 4.10)
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Good data. I always like Royal Purple. I wonder how Amsoil stacks up against it?
I agree roller cams can benefit from zinc as well. Just not nearly as much as flat tappet cars. Roller lifters will still roll with bargain basement oil, but those needle bearings in the lifters would appreciate it I'm sure. Never heard of any issues with synthetic being too slick for flat tappets. That kinda sounds to me like improper break in or weak or improper springs if the lifters don't spin (or just a bad cam). Many people aren't aware that flat tappets are ground in a way to promote spinning the lifter, as well as for cam retention in the block (ever wonder why a flat tappet doesn't come with a thrust plate like roller's do from the factory?). Just my $.02
I agree roller cams can benefit from zinc as well. Just not nearly as much as flat tappet cars. Roller lifters will still roll with bargain basement oil, but those needle bearings in the lifters would appreciate it I'm sure. Never heard of any issues with synthetic being too slick for flat tappets. That kinda sounds to me like improper break in or weak or improper springs if the lifters don't spin (or just a bad cam). Many people aren't aware that flat tappets are ground in a way to promote spinning the lifter, as well as for cam retention in the block (ever wonder why a flat tappet doesn't come with a thrust plate like roller's do from the factory?). Just my $.02
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 12,229
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From: Il
Car: 1989-92 FORMULA350 305 92 Hawkclone
Engine: 4++,350 & 305 CIs
Transmission: 700R4 4800 vig 18th700R4 t56 ZF6 T5
Axle/Gears: 3.70 9"ford alum chunk,dana44,9bolt
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
Chevy was a "cheap" motor thats one reason for no thrust plate on the older blocks. Im sure others didnt have the plate either.
Real Pontiac motors, Ford 289-302-351 motors and Im sure others used a thrust plate with flat tappet cams.
Yes, incase people didnt know the lobe is ground on a angle to promote cam retention and lifter. The lifter has a convex crown on the bottom for the same reason.
If the lifter stops spinning thats when cams get wiped out!
Real Pontiac motors, Ford 289-302-351 motors and Im sure others used a thrust plate with flat tappet cams.
Yes, incase people didnt know the lobe is ground on a angle to promote cam retention and lifter. The lifter has a convex crown on the bottom for the same reason.
If the lifter stops spinning thats when cams get wiped out!
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 6,499
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From: Macon, GA
Car: 1992 Camaro RS
Engine: Vortec headed 355, xe262
Transmission: T56
Axle/Gears: 9-bolt 3.70
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
I love my Vortecs, but there are things about them that irritate me.
If I want to upgrade to aluminum heads and get weight off the front of the car, I have to get a new intake, which makes an already expensive swap even worse.
Honestly, if you're staying TPI, I'd go 113's. They may not flow that great, but they will lighten up the car, and do a bowl blend and some back cut valves - just little things, and it'll post up very respectable numbers I think.
If I want to upgrade to aluminum heads and get weight off the front of the car, I have to get a new intake, which makes an already expensive swap even worse.
Honestly, if you're staying TPI, I'd go 113's. They may not flow that great, but they will lighten up the car, and do a bowl blend and some back cut valves - just little things, and it'll post up very respectable numbers I think.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 938
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From: Hinesville, GA USA
Car: '86 IROC-Z/'94 Z28
Engine: 350 LT1/382 LT1
Transmission: 4L60-E/T-56
Axle/Gears: 3.45/3.42 (soon 4.10)
Re: TPI 350 cylinder head decision - Vortecs or 113s?
For a stock head, yes. Plenty for all but the most max effort of tuned port setups. I still like my 113's, dont get me wrong; I just hate the stone age chamber design. I doubt my 383 would ever get the mileage it does without the efficient design of the vortec heads. That, and I prefer using GM heads (for some reason, lol) I would prefer aluminum heads, but am kind of afraid of using an aftermarket aluminum 'vortec' head since most tend to just be a standard head with a dual bolt pattern.
I wonder how the fastburns would compare to the 113 for a tuned port?
I wonder how the fastburns would compare to the 113 for a tuned port?
Last edited by dhirocz; Nov 22, 2011 at 09:39 PM.
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