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Starting to mock up everything for twin turbos on a 1987 IROCK Camaro. Wondering which sensors will have to be removed OR? and has anyone done this and what can you tell me about injectors
Last edited by bluetopc; Dec 24, 2019 at 03:55 PM.
You need a 2-3 bar map sensor depending on how you do your fuel management and what ecm system you run. Else a fmu but i dont likethem
injectors? Yeah you need to change them if making much more power than stock. Need to match your hp goals. I take it you are very new to this world of boost?
You can't just "change the injectors". The engine has to be tuned for them and with a twin turbo setup like that you aren't going to be using the stock ECU or the stock injectors. You'll also likely need a fuel pump for higher volume.
That plastic radiator isn't going to work with all that restriction in front of it and the proximity to those turbine housings. Also the fuel lines are nearly touching the header..... not good.
If it was me, I would get the management sorted out first. Figure out what computer you are going to run and get real familiar with tuning it on the NA engine before you start adding a bunch of turbo stuff.
The engine has to be tuned for them and with a twin turbo setup like that you aren't going to be using the stock ECU or the stock injectors. You'll also likely need a fuel pump for higher volume.
i mean you can run stock 90-92 730 ecm with code $59 if you can find it or try the boosted $8D stuff posted here a while back. It is possible but you better have good experience working with stock stuff to do it
i mean you can run stock 90-92 730 ecm with code $59 if you can find it or try the boosted $8D stuff posted here a while back. It is possible but you better have good experience working with stock stuff to do it
Right. But assuming it's the '87 in his profile.... I don't know of any 7165 hacks for boosted applications. There's the EBL Flash-II and that can handle it, there's our LINK plug-and-play kit which can handle it. Anything else requires a lot more re-wiring. 7730 is a heck of a lot more wiring than the EBL. I think my LINK plug-and-play harness has the least wiring requirements - having to only change from MAF to MAP sensor, change base timing to 10, and wire the knock signal to the output wire of the ESC module.
As Orr says - you better be real familiar with stock ECU tuning to pull off that setup with any of the stock ECU options. They are all chip-burning based systems so changes take a LOT of time and effort with scouring log files, burning test ROM's, and all that nonsense. It can take hours to make a dozen changes to the ROM that would take minutes on a real-time platform. The learning curve is crazy steep. Takes most people years to become proficient with chip burn tuning.
OP - let me know if you are interested in a LINK system for it. Can get you setup with proper real-time tuning environment, boost control, and full motorsports features.
GD
Last edited by GeneralDisorder; Dec 24, 2019 at 01:11 PM.
Thanks everyone for the help and kindness, seems there is always someone has to throw out a jab like they where never new to the game. As I get further along I’ll keep ya all update and most likely ask more questions. Not new to injection or tuning per say, I have one of the only Dynos around for Harley’s in Lansing other than the dealership.... so I have the concept down I was hoping for help with this particular application, it’s computer and if anyone has done this ..... saves time and cash seeking wisdom from ones who have done it.
yes, spot on... the fuel lines are now gone from that location, just mocking things up... lots of things moved and more fabrication to be done to make it work well. Woohoo having fun!
Last edited by bluetopc; Dec 24, 2019 at 02:18 PM.
My suggestion for "help with this computer" is to throw it in the dumpster. It wasn't that good in 1987, and it didn't get any better with age. The 7165 is very slow and prone to disconnecting randomly from the ALDL interface. It's a hardware limitation and can't be solved with tuning. The ECU in question is from 1986 so you're talking about 33 year old hardware. Best to get something that isn't going to have a circuit board crack or a capacitor leak and destroy the large investment under your hood.
You can't just "change the injectors". The engine has to be tuned for them and with a twin turbo setup like that you aren't going to be using the stock ECU or the stock injectors. You'll also likely need a fuel pump for higher volume.
That plastic radiator isn't going to work with all that restriction in front of it and the proximity to those turbine housings. Also the fuel lines are nearly touching the header..... not good.
If it was me, I would get the management sorted out first. Figure out what computer you are going to run and get real familiar with tuning it on the NA engine before you start adding a bunch of turbo stuff.
GD
thanks ... I guess what I was asking was has anyone done this so I can learn from them ... less guessing and less parts bought. Lots of wisdom out there.
My suggestion for "help with this computer" is to throw it in the dumpster. It wasn't that good in 1987, and it didn't get any better with age. The 7165 is very slow and prone to disconnecting randomly from the ALDL interface. It's a hardware limitation and can't be solved with tuning. The ECU in question is from 1986 so you're talking about 33 year old hardware. Best to get something that isn't going to have a circuit board crack or a capacitor leak and destroy the large investment under your hood.
Right. But assuming it's the '87 in his profile.... I don't know of any 7165 hacks for boosted applications. There's the EBL Flash-II and that can handle it, there's our LINK plug-and-play kit which can handle it. Anything else requires a lot more re-wiring. 7730 is a heck of a lot more wiring than the EBL. I think my LINK plug-and-play harness has the least wiring requirements - having to only change from MAF to MAP sensor, change base timing to 10, and wire the knock signal to the output wire of the ESC module.
As Orr says - you better be real familiar with stock ECU tuning to pull off that setup with any of the stock ECU options. They are all chip-burning based systems so changes take a LOT of time and effort with scouring log files, burning test ROM's, and all that nonsense. It can take hours to make a dozen changes to the ROM that would take minutes on a real-time platform. The learning curve is crazy steep. Takes most people years to become proficient with chip burn tuning.
OP - let me know if you are interested in a LINK system for it. Can get you setup with proper real-time tuning environment, boost control, and full motorsports features.
GD
than you... yes I would love help and any wisdom on that system! Steve
No jabs thrown just asking for your level of experience to help guide.
as said above, you can repin the ecm connectors and add the 3rd connector for a 730 ecm from 91-92 basically and beable to use a boost type code. Its somewhat complicated but can work. I have done 2 setups like this. One made 700 hp and went 9.70s. One was a stock 305 with 9 psi that went 13.4 at 110 lol. Both same system but drastically different hp
if motor is stock ish or stockish bottom end L98 with tpi then you’ll probably want no more than 10-12 psi or so for longevity. 400-450 hp easily on motor. 36 lb injectors should do it. Maybe 42’s for room.
No jabs thrown just asking for your level of experience to help guide.
as said above, you can repin the ecm connectors and add the 3rd connector for a 730 ecm from 91-92 basically and beable to use a boost type code. Its somewhat complicated but can work. I have done 2 setups like this. One made 700 hp and went 9.70s. One was a stock 305 with 9 psi that went 13.4 at 110 lol. Both same system but drastically different hp
if motor is stock ish or stockish bottom end L98 with tpi then you’ll probably want no more than 10-12 psi or so for longevity. 400-450 hp easily on motor. 36 lb injectors should do it. Maybe 42’s for room.
super big thanks! It’s a 4 bolt main 350... after every ting is mocked up and working with low boost I will tear it all down build motor and make it moderately pretty. I build one off custom bikes, I’m used to building amd tearing down several times before paint ... but this twin turbo is all new to me! Merry Christmas
than you... yes I would love help and any wisdom on that system! Steve
I offer a couple different packages depending on what your future plans for the car are. We could run the old TPI with one of the more basic ECU's like the MonsoonX - which won't support sequential injection on a V8 if you wanted to do that later or run an LS or something - just not enough inputs and outputs for it. Perfectly adequate for the factory style batch fire though. Also doesn't have knock control but you could use the existing ESC module as an input to a 4D timing table. Or you could step up to the Storm (full sequential and 8 ignition drivers - this is what I am running) or the Fury which has onboard lambda.
The pricing for a MonsoonX, with adapter harness, base map, and 1 hour of remote tuning to help get it setup so you can start tuning is $1595
The Storm would be $1895, and the Fury would be $2195
Here's some of the features I personally appreciate on the LINK.
1. Completely plug-and-play with the 1227165 harness. No ECU pinout changes and only a minor rewire for the MAF to a GM MAP sensor.
1. Closed loop idle control without closed loop fuel control, or open loop idle control with closed loop wideband (or narrowband) lambda control.
2. Closed loop wideband! You can get the map pretty close, and then when you need to drive the car, you just flip on the closed loop lambda control and the ECU takes over - adjusting your AFR to match the target AFR table.
3. Reliable emulation - you make changes to the fuel, ignition, and virtually any other settings and they take effect immediately.
4. Logging. The ECU logs internally all the time, and it logs every aspect of operation at 100Hz. The new G4-X that came out Dec 1st logs at 1000Hz.
5. Very customizable - the LINK ECU's are designed to be configured any way you want. For example - unlike other stand alone's where all the inputs and outputs are hard wired to a specific function, the LINK can be software configured to run the inputs and outputs any way you like. If you have a LINK with 4 ignition outputs and you only use 1, then the other three are available to drive other devices like solenoids, shift lights, or anything else you can think of. They can be turned on and off with basic logic in the ECU based on operating conditions. For example, in order to control the GM small cap HEI distributor module we used one of the outputs to drive a relay that feeds 5v to the module to "turn on" external timing control. The relay is built into the adapter harness and this logic is setup in the base map so you don't have to configure it. But that's just a small example of how this generic architecture can be used to run virtually any input or output you can imagine. Also if for some reason one of the output drivers burnt out on the LINK, you could easily just swap the pin over to one of the others. The LINK does have a lifetime warranty also in case something like that should happen under normal use.
I offer a couple different packages depending on what your future plans for the car are. We could run the old TPI with one of the more basic ECU's like the MonsoonX - which won't support sequential injection on a V8 if you wanted to do that later or run an LS or something - just not enough inputs and outputs for it. Perfectly adequate for the factory style batch fire though. Also doesn't have knock control but you could use the existing ESC module as an input to a 4D timing table. Or you could step up to the Storm (full sequential and 8 ignition drivers - this is what I am running) or the Fury which has onboard lambda.
The pricing for a MonsoonX, with adapter harness, base map, and 1 hour of remote tuning to help get it setup so you can start tuning is $1595
The Storm would be $1895, and the Fury would be $2195
Here's some of the features I personally appreciate on the LINK.
1. Completely plug-and-play with the 1227165 harness. No ECU pinout changes and only a minor rewire for the MAF to a GM MAP sensor.
1. Closed loop idle control without closed loop fuel control, or open loop idle control with closed loop wideband (or narrowband) lambda control.
2. Closed loop wideband! You can get the map pretty close, and then when you need to drive the car, you just flip on the closed loop lambda control and the ECU takes over - adjusting your AFR to match the target AFR table.
3. Reliable emulation - you make changes to the fuel, ignition, and virtually any other settings and they take effect immediately.
4. Logging. The ECU logs internally all the time, and it logs every aspect of operation at 100Hz. The new G4-X that came out Dec 1st logs at 1000Hz.
5. Very customizable - the LINK ECU's are designed to be configured any way you want. For example - unlike other stand alone's where all the inputs and outputs are hard wired to a specific function, the LINK can be software configured to run the inputs and outputs any way you like. If you have a LINK with 4 ignition outputs and you only use 1, then the other three are available to drive other devices like solenoids, shift lights, or anything else you can think of. They can be turned on and off with basic logic in the ECU based on operating conditions. For example, in order to control the GM small cap HEI distributor module we used one of the outputs to drive a relay that feeds 5v to the module to "turn on" external timing control. The relay is built into the adapter harness and this logic is setup in the base map so you don't have to configure it. But that's just a small example of how this generic architecture can be used to run virtually any input or output you can imagine. Also if for some reason one of the output drivers burnt out on the LINK, you could easily just swap the pin over to one of the others. The LINK does have a lifetime warranty also in case something like that should happen under normal use.
Where did you get your turbo headers? Did you custom make those??
the base of all this is from CX racing and for the money there is no way I would want to fab this up and I’m super fussy about kit bought things. Do t expect much as far as any tech help but so far I am very satisfied with their products! Oh if your wondering the kit with dual bearing turbos and (almost) everything you need was under 3K.
Has anyone used the fuel pump block off plate as a place to tap in for your turbo oil return? I see Morozo makes a nice one. Might TIG my own together, just wondering if it’s a good location ... thanks!
Has anyone used the fuel pump block off plate as a place to tap in for your turbo oil return? I see Morozo makes a nice one. Might TIG my own together, just wondering if it’s a good location ... thanks!
i have on one with a scavenger pump. Never tried with front turbo gravity drain. Driver side wouldnt drain well
i have on one with a scavenger pump. Never tried with front turbo gravity drain. Driver side wouldnt drain well
I have twin turbos and the drives side would work nicely but may tap the other side so I have a return for each turbo on each side ... I was asking if anyone has done it?
If there is actually a drain hole there any more. Not even sure it's drilled for the oil pump drive.
Yes all these 350 blocks of this vintage have the provision ... I would not ask if it didn’t, just asking if anyone has actually done it and how did it work for you! Thanks
I only ever ran mine to the pain when i had my first version of twins. It gravity drained well. When i ran mine out in the battery trays abit further out than tours i didnt have a direct path to pan that i liked so i drained to a pump in front and pumped to pan
I only ever ran mine to the pain when i had my first version of twins. It gravity drained well. When i ran mine out in the battery trays abit further out than tours i didnt have a direct path to pan that i liked so i drained to a pump in front and pumped to pan
