My question for you all is, Will the stock rear end and or transmission hold up to a 383stroker???? My car is an '85 Z-28, currently housing a tired yet original 305 w/4bbl and auto trans (700R4 i believe).
I am SERIOUSLY doubting the integrity of the transmission because i own the remains of an '87 Firebird Formula w/a 700 that the STOCK 305 4bbl tore up SEVERAL times(aprox 5 within the 7-8kmiles i drove it ).... I've read on CamaroZ28.com that the rear end out of that particular firebird is one of the more reliable rears for our gen. Anybody here know if thats correct????
Oh and on another not for the trans/rear. The car is on the virge of rolling over 175k miles. All original drivetrain/everything (other than the wearables(plugs wires filters you get the picture...)). I have no idea wether or not the trans/rearend oils have been changed and im skeptical to do so.
IF you are also doubting the integrity of the 700, i have a TH400 sitting in my garage, but its a "B.O.P." 400 that used to be hooked up to a Pontiac 400(so im told); will this trans bolt up to my 383 and will my crossmemeber/torque arm etc need to be changed or will everything line up aight?
Pretty much ANY info on the swap would be awesome thanks!

 

hmmm i dont know bout reliablity from that rearend or tranny. ummm i cant believe that z28.com says thats one of the better made rears for that car. From what i understand it still will be a ten bolt. on another note i believe they beefed the axles on the ten bold mid way through 89 or maybe it was 90 im not sure. but if its the original 10 bolt outta an 85 i dont think that will last very long. But if its the borg warner 9 bolt then yah its the best stock rear they put in the camaro/firebirds

 

If your rear end is a 10 bolt I highly doubt it will hold up under any tough launches. It is a 26 spline axle which is a little weaker than the 90-up which is 28 spline. Like Sunny RS pointed out if it is a 9 bolt then it is a decently tough rear end but if you want to do any gear swaps or anything like that then you are looking at a decent amount of money. I am not 100% sure on the BOP but I do not think that it will bolt up to your motor.

 

Yea, i didnt save the link for the thread that sumbody said that about the rear in but i remember someone saying that in 87 Formulas they put a Borg Warner 3.23 posi 9 Bolt rear in them and they were one of the best stock rears available for the gen...at any rate i'd assume that that rear would be more stout than my 10 (granted that the rear under my formula is a 9 bolt) correct?
Does anyone know if there is such a thing as an adaptor plate for a BOP TH400 to a GM block???? and if so how much and where can i find one???
and on another note, i know this isnt the exhaust board- but, I have a set of Hedman Hedders, long tube style...has anybody used these, if so, on or off street cuz i plan on using my car as a daily driver still, im not sure what my clearance is going to be withthem on, they seem to be rather long.... anyways, thanks for the info guys!

 

here's the link,
http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359600
amongst other posts/replies, reply #12 that i read...and now that i read it again, the ratio number musta been my imagination but idk...idk if this all really matters to ya'll or not but thats my 2 cents..

 

if infact i do swap to a Turbo400, will the driveshaft length change???? shorter longer....not?
just wondering if a local shop could modify it for me or if i'd hafta order one.. which of the 2 would u reccomend to a pretty much broke college student?

 

i was also wondering about the torque arm, and wether or not it NEEDS to be replaced...thanks

 

from what i have done and know, the BOP should hook up just fine seeing as how it has multiple bolt patterns on the housing. the only reason i say that, is because we unbolted a BOP th350 off a 305 and replaced it with a reman chevy th350. the th400 could be a little different on the bolt pattern, but not sure. the driveshaft will be a different length than the 700r4 ( i think longer?) so that will have to be changed. i think the torque was in the same mounting spot if i remember correctly.


btw, if ne1 gets a japser chevy th350 or whatever check the darn thing before you decide to pick it up and take it home. found that they sent a chevy th350 with a 700r4 converter and the tail housing on the tranny had to be twisted 180*. took an extra two days work to figure that out plus 2weeks waiting for the correct converter.

 

Your best plan, for a broke college student, probably isn't to put a strong 383 into a car without installing a driveline that will hold it at the same time. Alternatively, you could put in the big motor and see what breaks and replace parts one by one--if you don't need the car for daily transportation and if you have enough money for tow trucks and quality, surprise emergency repairs.
You'd probably be better off to build the motor, then build a strong 700R4, then a solid rear end--even if this takes a year--and replace them all during a week off. If you're low on money there's nothing like having your whole wad wrapped up in a car that doesn't run, then pulling another $1000 out of thin air to get it going, then having it suck gas while you study for finals.
The TH400 is nice but takes a special driveshaft and torque arm mount--then you have no overdrive, so the whole thing costs lots of money you probably don't need to spend to handle less than 450 hp/ft. lbs. The 700R4 can be built nicely for strong street horsepower, requires no fabrication for installation and retains the overdrive for mileage.
As for the rear end, I could either spend $2000 on a Currie 9" or build up the stock unit with aftermarket parts for the same money--I chose to build the stock unit for simplicity and light weight, good to 500 hp. For sure, the stock peg leg rear end will break with much over 300 hp/ft. lbs.; and if you want some speed you need 3.23's or 3.42's and a posi coupled with your 700R4. That way you get the best of both worlds--money well spent before you apply the power.

 

while i understand that the extra power is pry gonna take out my trans/rear, my main problem right now is that w/175k on the original motor, its startin to lag a bit, dont run woth a f sometimes, others its fine. and to top that off every other time i park it, it likes to leave a 'territorial' 1qt of motor oil there... kinda blows.... and i've also come across a noticeable lifter rattle as well.. so as you could guess, rebuilding the 305 aint gonna happen. what i think im gonna do is, buy the 383- drop it in and pu$$y foot it around until i can afford to atleast beef up the 700R4, then work back to the axle. i'm goin on 19years old this month and to be honest i have a 'tendancy' to challenge any **** burner i come upon so pu$$y footin' around might be hard but i think i can do it.... anyways, do you think that bein' good to her will work atleast a month or 2???? ....*** i hope so... lol

i think my main problem will be not wanting to do a smoke show w/the new motor
anyways, thanks a ton for all the input guys, and keep-er comin
Jon

 

You could build three TH400s for the cost of one good 700R4 though, which makes it even harder to figure out which is less expensive in the end.

I agree though that the best way to get longetivity out of the transmission and differential is not to beat on them. If you can't afford to upgrade the transmission and differential, then you can't afford the 383. If the car is relatively stock to begin with, then you'd get a much better bang for your buck out of exhaust and gearing anyway.

KintaroOe: Study, study, study.... Very Educational!

 

Well, when I was 19 I lost my license for a year for street racing--it's amazing that the motors I ran back then ever held together when I think about the stuff I did to beat the other guy. The idea of putting money into rebuilding a stock 305 repulses me; the 383 is quite tempting.
OK, if your 700R4 is reasonably tight I'd put in the 383 with the proper externally balanced stuff, use a very mild cam for the stock converter, even stick with the stock exhaust for now--and see what starts to give first when you can't help but get on it. The mild cam and stock converter and exhaust will help you restrain yourself while you plan for more performance parts. You might even be able to put this one over on your parents as a stock rebuild--hmmm.

 

As to cost of rebuilding the 700R4--a friend here in my town rebuilt mine for $800, standard rebuild plus a shift kit. It runs behind a 400 small block with Vortek heads, cam and headers in a tank of a Suburban ('70 3-door)--no problems towing a boat and a full load of junk on hot days.

 

A standard rebuild kit will at best be no better than stock. With the wrong shift kit in it, like a B&M, it won't even last as long as stock.

 

Well, maybe if automatics don't last in Camaros without spending lots of money, maybe you'd be better off adapting it to stick and making it a lot more fun to drive. It's not too hard to do and you can have a T5 built to handle 450 hp/ft. lbs. for under $1000. But if you really want to beat those **** burners from light to light you'll eventually have to build a super-duper automatic.
Five years from now, when you're out of college and making big money, do you still want to own that same Camaro or is it just something for fun while you go to school?

 

How's the saying go, dont get the cart before the horse?

Realistically, you install that 383 your foots gonna be in it, especially with a buddy riding shot gun. the amount of torque that stroker will put out even on a mild mild set-up will be enought to push the rear end past it's limits, especially if you start to wheel hop. I went through 4 rear ends with my tame 355 and before I dropped this new motor in I made sure from the firewall back the car could handle literally anything I put between the fenders.

My favorite new quote: The only person that can afford cheap parts is a rich person, they can afford to do it twice.

You can get updated parts ie. new parts for the entire rear end and take necessary precautions, but fact of the matter is the stock rears are a pizz poor and weak by design-end of story. You can paint a turd gold, but you still have a piece of chit Same with the transmission, you can literally build 2 TH400 or TH350's bullet proof for what it costs to build 1 medium range 700r4. And in our area, good luck finding a shop that can go ***** oout on a 700r4.

 

Everyone always wants to start with a big snarling engine, but there are a lot of things you can (maybe should?) upgrade first. Exhaust, gears, suspension, brakes, subframe connectors, transmission, etc. all make the car a lot more fun to drive, they just aren't as good for bragging rights in the McDonald's parking lot as saying "I've got a 383".

The same people who would be impressed by that aren't likely to know the difference between small blocks anyway, so go ahead and tell them your 305 is a 383 if you want.

 

Yeah, he needs those upgrades, for sure, but what about the puddle of oil and such? Would you rebuild the 305?

 

LOL, well we were young once too and never gave a thought to stopping or making the car work....just horse power

Alot can be said about tuning your car's suspension though. When we used to do the group cruise thing there was'nt 1 car in our group that could get me stop light to stop light (not that we ever did anything like that I was running 13.5's at that time, by the time they could get hooked up I was so far out it did'nt matter since the next lgiht would be yellow or red, made alot of buddies mad getting hosed, then they'd stomp on it harder thinking they have to beat me, bu tonly made it worse

I know your not happy with the 305's performance-if you can put 305 and performance together in the same sentence but you best bet would be honestly be start purchasing bolt ons since all of the bolt on's can be used from the 305 and installed onto your 350 or 383 whichever route you go. make sure you can stop faster than you can accelerate, have a drivetrain that can hadle it as well as a fuel system that can feed it.

Driveline is very important, friend had his nova to the track last Saturday, beatiful 70 nova-show car type with same drivetrain he had with his old 350. Well, he got a 10 second pass, pulled around to back it up, ended up with a huge hole in the floor board and only thing that kept him from getting de-headed was the shaft hit his roll cage and snapped off. 3 peices of driveshaft with a 1' chunk left rolling around inside the car and 1 heck of a dent in his hoop-things can get ugly quickly!!

 

A puddle of oil means there's a gasket or seal leaking, which can be replaced relatively easily and inexpensively. It doesn't mean that the whole engine has to be rebuilt.

 

But, gee, if it gets fixed easily and inexpensively when does he get to put in the 383?

 

After he builds up the rest of the car to handle it.

 

Too true...all of it..lol...

My step-dad works at "Certified Transmission" of fort dodge. turns out he gets a discount not to say thats gonna help MUCH but living off a little paycheck...every penny counts ya know..
In regards to that. I'd LOVE to do a 5speed swap, but im a little nervous about it because i've never done one and i REALLY dont wanna f that up too badly... even though i know there really isnt much to it, i would probably hafta atleast have someone experienced in it help me out because, like i said. i really dont wanna screw that up..
In regards to THAT. I understand this, BUT the motor still has 175k on it and i dont wanna tear into it and spend $ on it to have something else go bad in a week. also.... see RBjones' post...
I like his thinking
I think that the 383 swap will be the best route money wise because i can get the motor for 500 bux and drop it in 'myself' and as most of us do, i'll have a little more respect for my ride considering i did 'all' the work, though i KNOW i'll hafta get on it once in a while, i'll atleast have some respect for the old girl...

oh, and i found out today that my grandpa sold my 9 bolt! YES, i DO want to throttle him...just a tad...
SO, when the rear goes out, i think i'll be in the market for a 4th gen rear w/disc's....

Thanks a ton for all the comments and concerns, keep 'em commin if u got more for me! even if its criticization for my 'young guy attitude'..just dont hurt my feelings TOO much

Jon

 

I know, i know, quoting myself here.... by saying that ^^, i meant as in, given the odds, IF i dont nuke the trans/rear/anything else.... just thought i'd clear that up..lol

 

Yes, that sounds wise. Still, that 383 yearning to be free--I'd have a hard time resisting that, especially at 19 looking at a tired 305. Weird thing is, with all the modifications I've done to my driveline and body structure, I still have my stock 305; it's just such a good running little motor. If it had been tired when I got the car my path might have been very different. I think when it goes out I'll build a 350 or a destroked 400 because I like a high revving motor in a Camaro, like a DZ302--and stick shift--many options because the rest of my car is already built for up to 500 hp.

 

Yea, if i had gotten a car with fewer miles and/or a more mechanicly sound motor (305-350 whatever), the 383 swap wouldn't be so tempting, BUT. the old girl is gettin tired and, even though she's still goin, i feel that investing money in a mechanicly sound motor is better than having a sweet car that doesnt run... You have chosen the wiser route, but i cant complain either. I picked up my car for 1500 bux from a farmer...maybe not the best deal ever found but not too often to u find a fairly good condition Z28 w/t-tops... Hence why i jumped at the opportunity!
At any rate, i plan on keeping my car and making it a go-er before a show-er... i want to 'mold' the ground effects to the car using a little bondo or fiberglas, and i still may, but all my extra pennies are going into the performance end first and foremost. I am going into automotive tech and if i find another car, the Z will be my project car, where it will probably become the F-Body of my wildest dreams

It all takes a little time and a little money. Right now, im running low on either, but the more i work the more money i make, the more money i can put into the car

 

Well, excellent--a new rebuilt 383 for $500. Sounds like you have good access to parts, too, and tools, shops and advice. My poor parents thought I'd outgrow this when I grew up--no. They're dead and gone and I'm still stretching my money for speed and power, some kind of disease or something.
What does your dad say about building a 700R4 for strength?

 

Ehhh.. I'm reeeeally doubtful that you'll be able to finish the whole 383 for $500.

 

no-no. already build very slightly used 383......from a friend

 

he says the same as everyone else... "wont hold nothin' you're better off puttin your th400 behind it..."
then i inform him of the cost of parts to swap in a th400... he just laughed and shook his head... i took that as in, "YOU ARE NUTS". lol i'll agree

 

Ok, that's different then, as long as you know what went into it.

A lot of people see the $500 383 kits in the catalogs and assume that it will have everything they'll need, or that they won't need any machining.

 

Hey--you might want to ask Apeiron how he got that 4L60 in his car. I hear they're much stronger that the 700R4. And your used 383--do you know it's origin, like what kind of crank is in there, why your friend is selling it?

 

im not positive on the exact details on the origin of the 383. i do know it was in a '78ish chevy 3/4 ton 4x4... it was faithfully backed by a TH400 but a cooler line came off and that lead to the domise of the trans. instead of rebuilding the trans he pulled the driveline and the body and is currently doing a full frame off resto on the truck. when he's finished he's going to drop a 455 into it. so the 383 is up for sale, lucky me i got my name on it... the motor was a STRONG runner up until the trans blew so Hopefully all will be well....
good call rbjones....
Apeiron, where did you score the 4L60 and what did it take you to git 'er in? direct replacement?????

 

A 4L60 is a late-model 700R4 by another name, not really anything that special about it.

Mine is out of a 93 9C1 Caprice. It has the "Corvette servo", .500 boost valve, Trans-Go 700-2&3 shift kit, 7-CS clutch springs, 700-PKH pump vanes, Borg Warner Hi-Energy frictions, aftermarket sun shell and planet carrier, and a bunch of other crap I can't remember.

 

ever heard of anyone using a 4L80? (i THINK they exist, if not i owe a friend of mine a nice smack on the back of the head..)
from what im told they're better yet (go figure)...
how much did ur 4L60 cost to beef up (incl. trans price)
Im not sure what i will replace my 700 with at this point..something that works probably...lol

 

It's a 4L80E, expensive and heavy as hell, and you need a computer to control it.

I could tell you what the transmission cost, but it was in Canadian dollars 4 years ago which won't do you any good.

 

i see i see said the blind man who picked up his hammer and saw....

its kinda a tough choice... Heavy duty - cheaper trans, or overdrive and more money... then again if i do the 400 swap there's a whole bunch more money that i'd hafta put towards swap parts.... and id still be without overdrive... choices choices choices....

 

i just got done converting my 355 backed by a TH350 into a 383 stroker backed by a completely rebuilt TH400 with teh shift kit.... the TH400 was a pain to transfer into the car simply becuase i ended up completely fabricating a bracket for the torque arm on the transmission as well as completely fabricating a U-shaped crossmember. a few hours of work, about 5 between the 2 fabrications but my dad is quite the handy man so he helped me alot. its all fabricated out of 1/4" hardened steel that he got from the factory where he works.... i admit it was a PAIN IN THE @$$ but it was worth it for hte money i'm saving doing it.

 

Fbodynut04--be sure to post when you get that 383--this should be interesting.
I once had a rusty '78 pickup I bought from the county for $500--it had a 305 and a 3-speed stick. The clutch went out hauling antique tractors, so I put in a granny 4-speed using all junk yard parts. Than a friend who owns a junk yard called me--a lady with a big block '78 Suburban wanted to switch to a small block, so we traded--again, all factory parts. I went through the 454, bored it .040, Crane cam, did the heads myself, Performer intake, 750 Holley--and I ended up with a '78 half ton 454, granny trans, all factory heavy duty suspension from other trucks in various deals, with a rusty old body for about $1500. It ran great--I ended up trading it to a friend for a bunch of work on my Camaro.
If the body hadn't been rusty I would have kept it; but it was actually falling apart.
Let's see what you do with that Camaro.

 

yea, when i get my paycheck in 2 weeks i plan on buying the motor and im thinkin im gonna go through it first, but i'll probably atleast pull the mains and heads to check bearings and cyl's.... might throw a mild cam in it and drop a performer intake and holly 750 DP on it...... Might. lol.... im not makin enough money to drop a whole chit load of money into it, but i may do the 'cheap' upgrades.... i'll probably post pics of where im at in the project every now and again...
my grandpa had an older (76?) chevy 1/2 ton he sold to my step-dads parents.... it HAD a 305 in it but it developed a light lifter tick, so he had a 454 from a chevelle(?) dropped into it...., he dropped a nice brand new diamond plate flatbed on it, billet grille, and a conservative, gray paintjob.... she's a pretty nice lookin truck now, and its got b@lls to the walls... lol not too bad for a farm truck..

 

If you're going to go through that much trouble to check the bearings, just replace them while the caps are off.

 

Or, optionally, the #1 rod bearing gets oil last and the rear main gets most of the heat and pressure, so if these two are all right all the others are almost always just fine. You can look up into the cylinders and check the walls for condition. Cost: oil pan gasket and a forged oil pump drive shaft, if one's not already in there.
I bet your friend who's selling the 383 was running a pretty good cam, intake and carb. Is he keeping that stuff? One of the reasons I stick with older small block stuff is that it's so cheap used--and I like tearing it apart, repainting and rebuilding and all that. The woman is tolerant of this, makes space. My first Chevy project was putting a factory 3-2's manifold on my '58 348 in '66. I got the manifold, complete with carbs and linkage, in trade for a $25 shotgun at a speed shop, tore it all apart, repainted and reassembled--I learned not to take the butterfly off the throttle shaft when rebuilding. Anyway, I remember opening those secondaries for the first time--outstanding.