Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Im gonna pick up a 4th gen v6 T5 for free, I have an 84 t5 with a broken case and in need of a rebuild. Can I swap the main hard parts from the 84 into the 4th gen WC t5? and if so, which rebuild kit will i need, the WC kit or the NWC kit?


Ive gotta slam one of these together asap, car is sitting wihtout a transmission racking up storage fees

TKOPerformance

The parts you want to swap are incompatible. WC and NWC T5s have different mainshafts, gears, and cases. They are almost nothing alike.

I'm not sure about the 4th gens, but the 3rd gen V6 cars also had a different input shaft spline, and trying to use one on a V8 car requires a different clutch.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

im not trying to use the 4th gen internals, just the case itself

i want to swap the internals from my nwc to the wc case

TKOPerformance

I got it. It won't work.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

well, since you are around i might as well ask, what parts would I need to convert the v6 t5 to the better gearing of the 8? I was planning on upgrading the gearset anyways...

I know i need the input shaft, do i need the counter shaft or output or any other hard parts beyond the gears themselves

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

shoulda searched, looks like i need a new countershaft gear to match the new clutch gear

now i just need to know if new gearsets come with countershaft gears

RB83L69

Easiest / cheapest way to convert a 6-cyl T-5 to a V8, in 2 easy steps:

Step 1. Throw the 6-cyl transmission in the trash.
Step 2. Buy a V8 transmission.

There! All done.

Anything else WILL cost more, be more trouble, and involve more risk. You will end up buying a 6-cyl trans, a new clutch gear, new countergear, new small parts kit, and a few other goodies; then when you're all done, you'll have about $500 in parts, plus your labor and tools you'll have to buy, tied up in a $250 transmission. Assuming of course that you know what you're doing well enough to perform the teardown and rebuild without error or oversight, which if you're asking this question, you do not.


Now, here's how you convert a 1st design transmission to a 2nd design one:

1. Throw old one in the trash
2. Buy the later-model one

Once again, all done.

No other method is possible, AFAIK. It might be possible to machine the case for all the stuff that's different; but I kind of don't think so.

TKOPerformance

Well put RB.

They changed these transmissions over time for a reason. The NWC were weaker, more breakage prone, did not last as long, or shift as smoothly. The changes made from NWC to WC preculde the possibility of interchanging anything meaningful. The cases are different because of a change in bearing style. Like RB said it might be possible to machine a NWC case to accept WC parts, but the expense would be prohibitive. Plus, the machining would have to be dead on. Any misalignment could cause the gearset to fail. The mainshafts are different due to synchro changes and the fact that NWC rode the gears directly on the shaft, while WC used caged needel bearings under the speed gears. The gears are different due to the change in the way the gears ride on the mainshaft. Basically you've got apples and oranges. You want to make an oranpple. It just ain't gonna work.

Toss that 6 cylinder trans in the trash, or on eBay (same difference). Buy a good used WC T5 from a V8 car and be done with it. The WC T5 gives you the option of using super alloy gears, or upgrading to G-Force internals for up to 500 lbs/ft. or torque handling ability. The V8 trans will also have the good gearing stock. To change gearing you'd have to replace basically every gear except OD.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

I know that is your standard response RB. Thanks for your concern, rebuilding a tranny is well within my capability considering that I work on/rebuild/repair aircraft hydraulic components for combat aircraft for a living. A t5 pales in comparison to a main rotor servo for a huey or cobra. Lives dont depend on that T5 working. I asked questions when I first worked on those too(and other flight controls)believe it or not and still havent killed any aircrew as far as I know.

What I am trying to accomplish is build a stout T5, if i wanted just a regular v8 t5 i would have just purchased one as youve stated.

Since Id rather not waste time with that, and, im not willing to drop 1500+ for an aftermarket tranny Ive decided to build one.

Cost will only be parts as I have access to all/any tools necessary. As I have gathered, I should be able to do this for well under 1 grand. I have access to a free v6 WC tranny from a 4th gen which as I understand it, is desireable because there is less probability for case stretch/wear.

Since im starting out with that, and as ive gathered, the mainshaft is the same as the v8 version, im just trying to establish what other differences I will encounter so that I can acquire the requisite parts. I also have a NWC t5 and was merely inquiring as to the compatibility of the different parts. I will likely replace the input shaft with an aftermarket unit if available anyway so thats no big deal. If all I need is an input shaft and the countershaft gear then that is really no big deal.

Maybe im not making sense. Im not trying build this tranny to stock specs. If I started off with a v8 trans I would get aftermarket gears and assorted other upgraded parts. I would prefer to keep it under 800, now if it would legitimately cost more to start with a v6 trans than a V8 one I would try and find one. So far though it seems like the input shaft and counter gear are the only things needed and those are possibly things I would have upgraded anyway unless they charge some exhorbitant amount for input shafts and counter gears werent included in aftermarket gear sets. Maybe that is the case, if so, id like to know.

RB83L69

So you're going to start out with a 6-cyl core, to end up with a "stout" T-5?

Ever watch Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the other....."

Just go get the right thing, and then worry about fortifying that instead. You have a bunch of garbage. Throw it away, sell it on ebay, find the next greater fool, whatever. What you've got isn't what you need.

For $1000, you can get a whole V8 setup, and have $500 or more left over to waste on "beefing it up". Or, you could get just the V8 transmission (the right core for "beefing up" to start out with), and have $750 left over. Or, you could waste your whole $1000 on trying to make the pile of excrement you have into something besides a pile of excrement, and at the end, you'll still have a pile of excrement, except no $1000 any more.

Have I adequately expressed that if you want a heavy-duty transmission that will stand up to some abuse, a 6-cyl core and/or a 1st design core are worthless as the starting point? In fact, the 2 together, are twice as worthless. They just make your garage floor heavier, and therefore slower.

The one single piece you have out of all of that, that has any use whatsoever in a "beefed up" transmission, is the 2nd design case and extension housing. Those are the same whether 6-cyl or V8. Every single other piece is trash.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

hmm, seems like im getting different info from other sources and it doesnt sound like you can specifically tell me the differences between the V6 T5 and the V8 T5 other than what we have allready stated, those being the input shaft, first gear, and the counter gear

everything Ive read so far has led me to believe the main shaft is the same as is the countershaft. In all of your posts in the archives you repeat the same things but provide no hard data. Like for example if you mic'ed the o.d. of the various shafts, found some difference in tapering, etc. Im not saying you dont have it, but im wondering what exactly is the difference other than those that I mentioned.

Im looking at a G force kit and it includes all of those parts save for a main shaft... option maybe? course Ill still need the ~150 dollar rebuild kit so that puts me at about 1350 total cash outlay unless im missing anything which i may splurge for depending on how the other options begin to look.

SSC

I needed a good chukle.

The case is different on the NWC T5's you will see it if/when you pull it apart.

RB83L69

Mainshaft = the thing the drive shaft plugs onto. The intermediate gears spin on it, and when they are selected by the shifter, are splined to it by the synchro assembly.

Countergear = a gear that sits in the bottom of the case, rotates counter to the direction of rotation of the main shaft and the clutch gear. It has one set of teeth that engage the clutch gear, and numerous other sets of teeth that engage reverse, 1st, 2nd, & 3rd gears. Its end sticks through the rear of the case into the extension housing, and 5th gear is splined onto it.

Countershaft = a shaft that the countergear rides on, as used in some transmissions such as Muncie and T-10. The T-5 doesn't have one. Instead, the T-5 countergear rides inside its bearings.

The 1st design T-5 mainshaft uses bushings pressed onto the mainshaft for the intermediate gears to spin on, when the trans is in some other gear. The 2nd design T-5 uses needle roller bearings on the mainshaft for that function. The diameters of the shaft where those gears ride, as well as the arrangement of steps and other features to retain the parts, are different.

The 2st design countergear uses straight rollers at the front and the rear. In fact the rear one is the same part # as the axle bearing in a 10-bolt. The front one is a sort of cup, with the rollers retained in it, and a thrust washer in front of the gear to keep it from rubbing on the case. The 2nd design uses tapered rollers at both ends, with a bolt-in retainer at the rear. The 2nd design case has no need of a thrust washer, and therefore lacks the provision for it; the 1st design case lacks the provision for the 2nd design rear brg retainer.

I don't feel obligated to provide "proof", as such. You have the choice, of either blowing off what I'm telling you and spending your money unwisely, or whatever. If you choose not to believe what I'm reporting from my experience, that's up to you.

I don't really know, myself, if the intermediate gears (1st, 2nd, 3rd) are different between the 6-cyl and the V8, of the same design (1st or 2nd). I am however absolutely certain that the clutch gear (different splines, different tooth count, different gear diameter) and the countergear (different tooth count and diameter on the part that meshes with the clutch gear) are different. That is apart from the differences listed above between the 2 designs.

Please feel free to compare the 2 in as much detail as you are able to, and post the likenesses and differences that you find. Could be real useful info on down the road in a few more years when replacement parts and cores start getting harder to come by.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for describing the differences between a WC and NWC T5, i was familiar with them, I do believe my question was whether or not the V6 T5 had any other differences besides the input shaft etc. Its a shame you typed all of that out because you wasted alot of time answering a question I did not ask.

But basically, from what I gather, you do not know the answer to my question. Thanks.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

.Also, forgive me for not using the nomenclature you are accustomed to when referring to the parts in this transmission. Incidentally, the T5 rebuild manual refers to the part that you refer to as the "countergear" as the "countershaft gear"

perhaps you should have a look at it for yourself http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English...ice_Manual.pdf

TKOPerformance

1st Issue: Make your first post as clear as possible and you will get better responses back from people who are tryign to help you. Your initial post stated that you wanted to swap the guts from a NWC trans into a WC case, which is impossible. That's exactly what RB and I told you.

2nd Issue: I cannot say 100% that you can or cannot use the V6 case, extension housing and mainshaft in a V8 T5 buildup, as I am not certain that they are different or the same. You will need a new input shaft, 1st gear, 2nd gear, 3rd gear, and countergear (incidentally, calling this the "countershaft gear" is a minsnomer, because there is no countershaft in a T5, Muncies & Super T10s actaully have a shaft running through the gear, so they have a countershaft gear, in a T5 it is simply a "countergear", also commonly reffered to as a "cluster gear"). Then you use a WC T5 rebuild kit for a GM trans. If you want more beef use a set of superalloy gears, which cost $450 for the set with a new GM V8 input shaft. The overdrive ratios are also typically different between V8 and V6 T5s. As long as the gears are a matched set they will work, but might not be as advantageous as a performance V8 set, which could be purchased and installed if you so desire. I think this answers your current question.

3rd Issue: If you've got the space keep all your spare parts. Believe it or not T5 cores and parts are already starting to dry up, at least for F-bodies. Let me know what you are trying works. If so you may have found a cheap source for good used WC T5 cores.

Pablo

iTrader: (1)

Not to get bogged down in details, but, T5 rebuild manual http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English...ice_Manual.pdf page 4-6 figure 4-7 item 105. They refer to it as the countershaft gear. Granted I see what you are saying, it is not a seperate gear from a shaft but I didnt name it.

As for clarity, I asked subsequent questions (read the posts other than the first one) hence my original question has no bearing on the information I seek now which I thank you for doing your best to answer. FWIW several sources have shown the main and extension housing and mainshaft are the same between the v6 and 8

Super alloy gears sound like a good option as the Gforce setup is quite pricey... now I need to look around for a good source and more details on that setup

I will let you know what I find as far as the 6 vs 8 box

TKOPerformance

I have the T5 rebuild manual. They can call that gear whatever they want. The terminology is still wrong. You don't call the pinion in a rear end a "pinion shaft gear". It's the pinion gear because it incorporates the shaft and bearing seating surfaces into a single unit. Stuff like that just bugs me is all. It's like calling all limited slip differentials a "posi".

Best source for T5 parts is www.hanlonmotorsports.com That's where I buy all my T5 stuff. Just be sure to tell him it's for a GM T5. You won't get the superalloy input shaft (only available in a Ford spline), just specify that you want a new GM input as part of the kit instead. He always does it for me at no extra cost.

I'd also ask Bob about the case, extension housing, and mainshaft. He will know the definitive answer to that question. It doesn't make sense that they would be different. Cost wise it makes more sense to just make one version and change things that are easily changable like input shafts (which you have to chnage from Ford to Chevy to Jeep anyway).

Petes 84Z28

What I've done is use a first-design V6 case with first-design V8 guts swapped into it, reasoning that the V6 case hadn't stretched as much as the V8 one has due to less power being put through it. It doesn't leak out the front bearing cup like the V8 one did
The V6 input shaft differs in two ways from that of the V8 - spline count/size; and transfer gear diameter/tooth count. The V6 piece has fewer teeth/smaller diameter which requires a larger # of teeth/diameter on the transfer gear of the countershaft (cluster gear) - this is what gives the V6 T5 it's 'deeper' first gear ratio and also what makes the case more prone to stretching when people try to use them behind a higher HP V8. It multiplies the engines' torque into the countergear shaft the same way that switching from, say a 2.73 rear axle ratio to a 3.73 ratio puts more torque to the tires.
When I need to replace the countergear shaft, I was told there are a number of different countergear shafts available, depending on the internal gearing - the only way to get the correct one is by doing a 'tooth count' for every gear.
I didn't compare the mainshafts so I can't say if they are the same or not.