I just finished installing a WC T5 into my 85 Monte Carlo and am having some issues that you guys may be able to help me with. With the car started, I can't get it into gear - it seems the clutch isn't releasing enough to allow me to shift into gear. I can of course go through the gears with the car off. It doesn't go into 1-5 at all, but will go a touch more into reverse (gears grind though), but still obviously not enough to get mobile. When I try to put it in first (with the clutch to the floor), it crawls forward ever so slightly. If I put it in gear, then start it, the car wants to go.

My question here is how much should the clutch fork travel when depressing the clutch pedal? I get about 20mm of movement - is this normal? The only thing I can think of is perhaps my "pre-bled" GM hydraulic assembly isn't bled so well. But... if that is sufficient clutch fork travel, I may have other issues. Also of note is that I used 93-02 hydraulics. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated - I have no experience with trouble shooting clutches.

I just read this thread, in which the poster seems to be having similar problems:
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ic-clutch.html

In taking tips from that thread, I can note that I do have the V8 hydraulic fork, the clutch is installed facing the correct way, and the throwout bearing is set on the fork correctly as well. I bought a pilot bearing but decided not to use it when I noticed a bushing was already in my Goodwrench motor - I don't believe this is a problem as I test fit the trans several times during the install (without the clutch assy) and the shaft slid into the bushing without resistance. During final install with the clutch assembly however, I did have to use the bolts to pull the trans in the last 1/4" or so - I assumed this was due to the pressure plate contacting the throwout bearing - is this normal? The new throwout bearing (Federal Mogul 614083) looked idetical to the used one that came with my complete setup. Is the 14.5mm clutch fork movement noted in that thread correct?

 

This may solve my problem if someone can tell me if this is normal

When installing the trans, I had to use the bolts to pull the trans into the bellhousing the last 1/4" or so. Is this normal or not? From reading several threads here, it sounds like it's possible the pilot bushing may be jamming on the input shaft (although it fit fine without the clutch assy).

 

it is never a good idea to "pull the trans the last 1/4 or so". The trans should seat against the bell housing (or block, however your doing it). It's possible that you have gouged the bushing by doing this.

 

That's what I'm thinking... I should have stopped at that point when it wouldn't just slide in, or have someone depress the clutch while getting it in that last little bit, but this is my first standard trans install... live and learn!

So I would/could get these symptoms due to the input shaft being jammed against the bushing correct? (ie. crank is spinning the input shaft regardless of whether or not the clutch is engaged)

 

Yup...

Either that, or your clutch disc is destroyed: it may now no longer be a disc, but rather a "dome" instead.

Either way, it's time to disassemble, inspect, repair/replace what got damaged, and PROPERLY re-assemble.

This time, have someone else push the clutch once the transmission's clutch gear bearing retainer has started into the BH hole, to take the tension off everything; wiggle the trans with one hand while tightening a bolt with your fingers, then tighten another bolt on the other side with your fingers while wiggling, then tighten the first one, etc. until it seats by itself. Ideally, it'll just go right in, by hand. That's what I always shoot for, especially with as easy as a T-5 is to handle; gotta be the easiest one to manage, it basically doesn't weigh anything, so it's no big deal to try to put it in, and if it doesn't go, set it back down and figure out why.

Too bad you had to learn the hard way why not to "draw" the trans up to the BH with the bolts.... as they say, "live and learn, or you don't live long"...

 

Thanks guys - I appreciate the help! Sounds like my hydraulics are fine then with the 20mm travel, and unfortunately I created a bigger issue!

 

Yup...

"Spec" travel for it is about .600", which is about 17mm. Sounds like that's not the problem.

 

Great - thanks for confirming that (and eliminating a goose chase there).

I dropped the trans when I got home today and took some pics...
Right after removing trans - throwout bearing still in place:


Removed throwout bearing for a better look:


Input shaft:

When I first removed the trans and looked inside the bellhousing, it appeared that the throwout was sitting much lower than the clutch and pilot bushing, but I suppose this is more due to the fact it is just hanging there at this point in time. The pilot bearing looks like it has sustained no damage, nor has the input shaft, but I am no expert (obviously ).
Of note - when I first unbolted the trans, I tried to slip it back in just to see if it would go and it popped right in nicely. This could mean that everything was aligned fine at that time, but I wanted to drop it at that point to ensure there was no damage to the bushing or shaft.
Does anyone see anything alarming in the above photos? If there are any other pics I should take/show, I will gladly do so.

 

Actually, yes, maybe...

The center of the clutch disc, where it says "Made in U.S.A.", doesn't look flat. It looks dented inwards.

It'd be a good idea to pull it out and see. That part should be ABSOLUTELY flat and perfectly perpendicular to the axis of the clutch gear. If it's concave, you need a new one.

 

The face of the clutch is flat - just looks that way in the pic because of the missing paint.

Well I put it back together, with my fiancee holding the clutch down while I slid the trans in that last 1/4" or so and it did go in nice and easy, and mated flush with the bellhousing.

I then bolted most everything up and decided to check things out before I put the driveshaft back in. With the engine started, once again the output shaft spins constantly, even in neutral with the clutch depressed. I can however go through the gears (with or without the clutch, and you can see the output shaft changing speed with each gear). Reverse grinds and will not slip in.

With the driveshaft in (and still in the air!), I am back to square one. I can not get it into gear while started. I am kind of at a loss now. I confirmed the clutch fork travel as 17mm, so I think I am fine there.

Is it possible the bushing is too tight of a fit on the shaft, causing it to always spin? Why would the output shaft still spin in neutral? Why does installing the driveshaft make a difference in being able to go through the gears if the car is still in the air?

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/tran...ay#post1275162
Ok - I tried the above test, and I have come to the conclusion that the pilot bearing is not binding on the shaft. I can hear a sound while turning the one rear tire with the clutch all the way down, and to me it sounds like the clutch still slightly grabbing, which leads me to believe it simply isn't releasing all the way.
I move on to bleed the assembly. There are only two things I can do with the 93-02 hydraulics apparantly. One is pump the pedal, and the other is push the slave piston back. There is no bleed valve on the slave like on the 84-92 slave that came with my trans. I did get some very tiny bubbles, but hardly anything.
Results:
While in the air, I can not shift into 1st or 2nd while the engine is running. Also of note, I can hold both the brake and clutch down and the rear tires will stop spinning - slightly release either the brake or clutch and the tires start to spin again. I can feel the engine load up when I release the clutch, although it is never fully released.
Back on the ground I still cannot shift into gear while the engine is running, but I can feel the engine load in the same manner as noted above if I have both the brake and clutch depressed and let out the clutch.
Any other thoughts? I can't do much more in the bleeding department unfortunately (I'm stumped as to why there is no bleeder valve). I have heard suggestions on extending the slave rod, but I don't know if I want to do that in case it renders it useless if that's not the problem. Should I try a new clutch assembly (with the hope the problem is the pressure plate and not the hydraulics)? Again, according to spec, I am getting more than sufficient clutch fork travel.

 

I yanked it out again yesterday. The clutch seems to slide easily on the shaft splines. I took a bunch more pics to post up in case anyone sees anything obviously wrong.
To me the pressure plate doesn't look very good, however it appears straight when checked with a straight edge.



My freshly resurfaced flywheel looks about the same as it did when I first got it with the same hot spots looking like they've resurfaced - is it possible they didn't take enough off while machining? Also appears straight when checked with a straight edge. Pilot bushing appears fine still. Note the edges of the flywheel - are the marks normal from the clutch burning? I tried to burn it in the one time I had it on the ground and smoked up the clutch a bit. It almost looks like an oil was sprayed on the edges though.



Clutch looks ok and not much different (appears straight when checked with a straight edge).

The clutch fork looks fine, and is the V8 one - you can see a light stamping on the backside.



Ballstud looks ok.


After I removed the trans, and before removing the bellhousing, I had my fiancee depress the clutch so I could watch the pressure plate. It appears to have sufficient movement - from what I understand it only needs to back off 1/16" or so, which it is doing at least that IMO.
Once everything was out, I sat the clutch disc on the pressure plate just lying there and tried to spin the disc on the plate. It seems stick a LOT more than I would expect - not like a pad on a rotor for instance. Without pressure, I would have expected it to slide smoothly. Is this normal? It's possible the clutch has been contaminated since it was used. I am begining to wonder if the clutch was just sticking to either the flywheel or pressure plate (even if it was releasing) causing the problem. I just ordered a new RAM 88730 clutch assembly in the hopes of eliminating the pressure plate and/or flywheel being a problem. The only used parts now will be the bell, fork, and trans. It won't be here until after the new year - which is probably a good thing as I can forget about it for now (since I can't do anything in the mean time).
On reinstallation, should I use my pilot bearing to replace the bushing? I know a lot of people use bushings, so it really shouldn't be an issue, but... Also, should I get the flywheel resurfaced again?
I'm not ignoring the bellhousing alignment completely either - that is still a thought as a last resort. I just really don't want to take it to a shop and have them charge me several hundred dollars doing the same troubleshooting I am, so I want to eliminate any other possibility I can think of before I go that route. And for the time being, it won't be back on the road for a while anyways

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Uninstall your shifter. Make sure the transmission is actually in neatral. Now reinstall your shifter.

I am suggesting this because when you have your driveshaft in it clearly thinks you have it in gear and you can not get it into gear with the engine running. Just humor me and give it a shot.

 

I can try that when I put it back together next, but I am pretty sure the shifter is fine with respect to the shift rail/cup because I can get it into gear with the car off, and it goes through all the gears properly while the car isn't running. If I misunderstood what you are saying, let me know

 

I whipped up an adjustable pushrod with parts from the hardware store and gave it a try

and...



SHE'S MOBILE!!!!
Thanks everyone for all your help!

 

No, you understood correctly. I suggested it because I had a similar problem and that was the fix. I don't recall if I ran through all of the gears though.

Looks like it was your slave cylinder pushrod for some reason though. I wonder if your fork is bent.

 

I think it stems from the flywheel being resurfaced 2-3 times in it's history, thus pulling the pressure plate further away from the throwout bearing (and wasting slave travel). Some people use shims behind the flywheel, or a longer throwout bearing to regain the lost travel, but I liked the idea of the pushrod since it is still external (easy to get at), and easily adjustable. That being said, I am just glad it's working!

 

Yea of all of those "fixes" I would have picked the adjustable pushrod as well since it can be changed or removed with ease.