I was wondering if the manual transmissions are faster then the automatics because the automatics in our cars.


I tell people I have the 700r4 auto and they automaticly think its slower but torque converters multiply torque and many american cars are fast with automatics.

The manual had 3.08 vs the auto 2.73 axle not a big difference not sure about the 4 speed manual.

This would be comparing two cars of the similer power output's.

So how much slower is the automatic on our cars?

 

Automatics rob more horsepower than manuals on all cars, not just ours.

Put 2 cars on a dyno, everything identical except the tranny, and the manual tranny one will put mower to the rear wheels.

 

while they rob more power the autos have the advantage of faster shifts.

 

That depends on the valve body. Stock autos are slow shifters. With a good performance valve body, they can be faster. Also depends on how good the driver is, at moving the clutch & shifter.

 

all of the above . that being said its much more fun playing with the mixer stick on a manual .

 

love driving stick but my built trans shifts just like you would power shift and slams just as hard with the shift kit. never thought id love an auto trans.

 

Very true.

 

The performance numbers for the '85 IROC show almost identical numbers for the auto and manual. When you factor in that the auto shifter came behind the tpi 5 liter that was rated at 15 more h.p. then the L69 5spd combo, it would indicate to me that the manual is quicker. The tests were closed course, professional drivers blah-blah-blah. Add the fun factor and why drive anything other then a stick.

 

Because you're broke and the only thing you could find that you could afford was an auto?

 

reason i have my auto formula is i fell in love with it and they only made autos back in 90 for the 350

 

Your comparing a EFI TPI car to a Computer controlled carburetor. Not an equal comparison at all. And who knows if the comparison was between a 2.73 & a 2.73 rear gear too. That isn't enough information to form any opinion on.

There is no reason that "an automatic car is cheaper than a manual car". Besides...,,Until recently, manuals were usually cheaper than auto cars, so there goes your theory out the window.

Yep. Unless you do an engine swap to a 350, you got a 305 from the factory if you wanted the T5.

Let's not forget that some of the faster, standard production 3rd gens ever built, all came with automatics. The 1500 TTAs.

The SLP Firewhawks were not your normal 3rd gens. And even then, the TTAs (ALL automatics) were very quick cars.

 

true. wasnt any thirdgens around at the time worth it.

 

When your car came with an automatic trans, it is by far cheaper to buy another used sometimes even new auto trans compared to buying a used t5 + hydraulic clutch assembly, pedal assembly, flywheel, clutch disk, pressure plate, throw out bearing, pilot bearing, center piece for console...
I might get my trans rebuilt for $300 someone I know if I bring it to them...lowest t5 setup i seen was around $500 very used...

 

When you grenade an auto, you may have to change the torque converter as well, or get it rebuilt.


I swapped out my auto for a manual and all it cost me was $8, which was the cost of the pilot bushing.

Oh, I ran my car at the track with an auto and 3.23 & 3.73 and as a manual with 3.73 and 4.10's.
Auto 3.23 --15.7 @ 86mph
Auto 3.73-- 15.2 @ 88mph
T5 & 3.73 - 15.2 @ 90mph
T5 & 4.10 - 15.2 @ 93mph

2.0 60' on all of the passes.

 

Forgot about the torque converter >_> XD. You got your manual for free?

 

One of my friends had an 88 GTA 305TPI 5 speed and we ended up swapping transmissions.
Took 1.5 days in my driveway, did both at the same time.

 

the converter may multiply tq but its also eating alot of it

a T-5 is lighter then a 700r4
the t-5 has 5 speeds instead of 4 but where as you can hold a gear longer with the auto the t-5 will need shifted and that takes time even if it allows for more power to the wheels

that is why with 3.23 gears he had the same times manual and auto
the t-5 is letting you put down more power but you have to shift one extra time
the 700r4 handles more power then a t-5

the gear range in the t-5 is more evenly spread then the 700r4
2.95 3.06
1.94 1.62
1.34 1.00
1.00 0.70
0.63

both trans have a very nice 1st gear but hit 2nd and the manual should pull away for a few moments .
then they must shift, the auto car should have caught up by then .
then the manual car will pull away for another moment then the manual must shift again letting the auto car pass.
then the auto shifts then both cars are in the same gears 4th for the manual 3rd for the auto
the manual should pull harder as it puts more power to the ground

mind you that would be a straight line drag race if both cars had the same rear gears but thats not true

manuals had 3.08 or 3.42 for the most part
autos had 2.73s 3.23s

so useing the stock gearing the manuals would be faster
look at this

a 91 350 car with 245 hp and 345 tq with auto and 3.23 gears runs about the same times as a 305 car with 230 hp and 300tq with manual and 3.42 gears
it shows that yes having a manual dosnt rob you of as much power
the underpowered 305 puts more of its power to the ground and has better gears in the rear


when i had my car still tbi and upgraded the rear gears to 3.23 i could toast manual tbi cars but my gearing put me ahead
it also made my tbi car as quick as tpi cars with 2.73s those tpi cars used to toast me when i had stock 2.73s
from my experiance gearing makes a lot of differance with stock power levels

im lazy and prefer autos

 

On the LS1 cars, I've seen that using a higher stall converter, say a Yank 4000 Stall will give an Auto a huge advantage over a manual.
01 SS with longtubes, ORY, 3.23 gears, SLP Lid, Drag Radials, and a Yank 4000 stall ran a best of 11.87, can't remember the mph, I think it may have been 108mph.

My brother bought the longblock from that 01 a few years ago and put it into his 96 Trans Am with MMS heads, Trex cam, longtubes, ORY, 3.73 gears, 4000 stall, and not running right (bad sensor) could only muster a 12.03 at 114mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7yhFo33ilQ

T56 cars with bolt ons and no weight reduction usually run 12.5 or so.
T56 setup is probably equal in weight to the 4L60E.

 

i have raced both. i have seen similar times with both. the auto set up right will tend to be more consistant due to the fact that we are not perfect at shifting every time. and once you get your car and your mind tuned in right you dont need the clutch to shift it all the time.

 

The people who think your car is slower because its not a manual are idiots. Dont care what others think about your car and your life will be much happier. Id rather have a 700r4 over a T5 any day, you can make a 700r4 pretty strong, my friend runs sub 10 second 1/4 miles in his firebird with 1.30 60's.... I havnt seen a T-5 hold to that (not saying there arnt any). I believe anyone who has a good grasp on automotive performance and mechanics will tell you that between the two a 700r4 is better. Now granted the 700r4 is still not an ideal transmission. And if you wanted a standard 3rd gen youd be hard pressed to do better then a T56....

 

just build the **** out of your auto and let how it performs do the talking. thats what i do and if they give me **** how its auto ill take there manual and show i can shift just as good and fast.

 

I might sound somewhat degeneratory about automatic transmissions here, but I would like to add I drive an auto myself, and I do not live in the US which has nothing to do with auto trans performance but with availability instead.

I have been driving manual transmissions as long as I have been driving cars (which is 17 years by now) and am convinced that I can and will shift consistent on a straight run. Give it a few tries and I´ll shift as consistent as an automatic transmission.

Still, in straight line acceleratin an automatic transission will have a clear advantage. The torque converter on start is only one, the other one is consistency within the clutch. A manual clutch is subject to wear and is heavily affected by temperature changes which need one or two (I´ll not argue with anyone claiming 3) tenths of a second of adjustment.

As soon as cornering is involved an automatic is not fast enough. You can predict where your car goes, how fast it will go there and whether or not you´ll press the throttle after an apex. An automatic transmission can not predect. It can pretend to predict but only you know what you´ll do next, and only a manual allows you to handle accordingly.

That said, I drive an automatic because I do not wish to race my car.

 

makes me wonder how many people have never driven a stick shift ??? to me it's the fun of driveing a camaro . good luck .

 

while it may be fun for the driver of a stick shift, i submit that when i am the passenger i want to hang myself because its pure torture getting whiplash because 99% of stick drivers are not smooth at all.

complaint #2 is that somewhere like LA where you have traffic and it gets really annoying even driving BEHIND a stick driver because they are trying to minimize the number of shifts they have to do so they make huge gaps and take forever to keep up in traffic.

# is that you cant apply makeup while shifting. j/k lol.

id have to agree that unless you are racing with turns involved there is no need for stick.

 

one of my old street racing videos from 2001 of my 86 Trans Am with a T5 and 305.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLBfKEsgFmo

 

ok I know I'm late on this but I just noticed your reply to me. I think you should re-read what I typed. It wasn't a theory. In case you can't figure it out what I said was that an auto was the only thing I could FIND that I could afford.

As far as which is faster? in my opinion there isn't a person on earth that can outshift a computer/machine. Set your shift points, put in a shift kit, and a manual doesn't stand a chance, but it is still more fun to drive.

 

Some of the drag racers a few years ago anyway, opted for the old powerglide 2 speed auto from the sixties. Less shifting I guess. Just seems a bit slushy to me.

 

lmao on the bottom of my page there was an add for "monster 4L80E transmissions"

though what pretty much a few people have said. a stalled, built trans with a shift kit will out perform a manual. now on anything it does depend on the other driver. some will get beaten by a stock trans, some will beat a stock trans. some will get beaten by a built trans. some will beat a built trans.


there was something i read on ls1tech that i found funny and it was something along the lines of

"Manual transmissions impress high school kids, automatics win races"

 

I'll be swapping to a manual here soon... my opinion:

I want to drive my car, not just steer it.

So far all 5 of my thirdgens have been factory autos... I drove a 91 Z 5 spd the other week and since then, I've been salivating over driving another manual thirdgen..... WAY better IMHO. Forget that auto crap.

 

Yeah, I'll be thinking of you in stop and go traffic. I do use my shifter quite often. I don't just put it in gear and drive away.

 

I'm actually glad I've got an Auto. I've got a bad left Knee with 2 operations behind me. If I'd have had a manual I'd never have been able to get to work or to rehab because I couldn't clutch for about 6 months after each. lol

 

There was a time that hands down a manual was the only way to go in a performance car. Automatics were new, and unreliable back in the earlier days. Manuals became "traditional" probably due to this. My 68 Charger R/T had an automatic on the column. TACKY! Now, that is considered vintage to have both muscle and family car characteristics e.g. big block, 4 on the floor w/bench seats, stuff like that. I remember when 4 on the floor meant you had performance equipment, and not a stodgy automatic.

 

I picked up my T5 today; hopefully I'll be putting it in within a week or two.

CANNOT WAIT!

 

So many opinions, and so many different variable. I learned a long time ago that whatever makes my car better (in my opinion) is the way to go. BUT.....you didn't ask for opinions, you asked which is faster. I've found through experience and observation, that a stock 7004r/L98, and a stock T5/LB9 with someone who isn't a moron driving, will be similar. I'll leave it at "similar". ...but once you modify an automatic, and gear it and stall it accordingly, you're gonna be hard pressed to outshift it, assuming the motors are both apples to apples. But again, that's in a straight line.

*Edit* -For the record, I just swapped in a T5 about a month or so ago. From the day I bought the car in '98 until the day I first drove the T5, easily the single biggest improvent I made was the performance rebuilt 700r4 with the 2400 stall. It was awesome. And quite frankly, the rush of stalling it up, getting a little smoke in first, and then hookin' up, chirping second, and then slamming into third was amazing. I don't know that the T5 is any more fun than that, and I doubt it's faster. ...ultimately though, the T5 is more fun everytime I drive though, and it can't be beat on the back country roads. I'd never buy another automatic performance car, but I loved that ole 700 i had.

 

The car club I was in prior to my cross country move back 2007 had a LOT of fast cars in it. I'm talking 8.xx second cars (both thirdgens actually) through the 1320... They all had autos - Their purpose was drag racing so that made sense. My biggest problem with autos is that unless you are on the gas and accelerating, they just never seem to be in the right gear. Now, in my 91's case, that could be more attributed to the 2.73 gears, but it just never feels like its in the right gear for the engine's power. That being said, I am extremely excited to swap in the T5 I just bought. I cannot wait to shift through the gears. I agree with the last sentence too - I WILL NEVER BUY another automatic performance car - although since most 3rdgens are auto and I'm very likely to have more in the future, I'll make that one exception.

 

Well, ya gotta remember that with a manual, you can drive it like grandma, or drive it like ya stole it! ...with the auto, it's ultimately tuned to one or the other. I think it's safe to say that GM had a relatively grandma like tune on our automatics. With the gearing, proper performance build, and stall all matched to your engines power curve, it's a whole 'nother experience. Still nothin' like shifting your own gears though. I certainly have a lot of respect for what an automatic can do though...

 

Automatics are fast when built properly, but a manual with a great driver will be alot faster from a dig. I had a 87 iroc 5.7 with the 3.27's and i got owned by a 91 Z28 305 tpi 5 speed with ease!!! Automatics weigh more than manual cars. My 89 RS is a 5 speed car with 3.73's, full exhuast, no power windows, hard top, composite hood, aluminum drum's, aluminum driveshaft, harris chip stage two, and i have taken out the majority of automatic tpi's with ease!!! The only F-bodys that give me a run are the 89 to 92 G92 camaro's and trans am's

 

Am I correct in saying there are no Formula 1 manual transmissions? All electronically controlled and shifted. Not possible for a human to compete with that. That's the way most(?) top end performance cars are now. Paddle shifters. As someone said above most people can't shift a manual very well anyway. But that's nowadays. Our cars are a bit long in the tooth so go with whichever makes you happy.

 

Holy 1 year thread bump Batman

 

Idly curious to know what the longest period a thread has been dormant for.

 

This doesn't even come close to the thread resurrection card.

But Auto vs Manual? What is the purpose of the car? My Thirdgens purpose is every day driving, Auto-X, Road Course, and dragstrip. It spends 95% of its time on the street. Since I prefer more control over when I want to play a manual makes more sense.

For me, I don't care of the manual is slower at the strip, its more fun for me. And nothing offers the control of a manual when you are going into a corner hard on the brakes. You are in the gear, ready to power out because you chose the right gear. Nor will it upshift/downshift mid corner and upset the balance.

I don't care if I don't road race the car every day, or even 95% of the time. I want a manual. Its why when I bought my new daily driver I bought a manual. The G6 GTP would be so much more boring with an automatic transmission.

Drag strips are where automatics rule. Properly built, nothing is as fast or as consistent in shifting. Plus the torque multiplication from a matched stall will help acceleration and launch tremendously.

F1 transmissions are in a class of their own now with the double clutch boxes.

 

I'm in the same boat. I bought my car to go fast and have fun doing it. Before i bought my 91 I had been looking for a manual but they were hard to come by (especially behind a 350), and i couldn't pass up my coworkers automatic 91z which had almost everything else i was looking for. I bought this car, and when the auto crapped out years later it took all of 0.00 seconds to figure out what i was gonna put in its place.

I autocrossed a couple times, years ago now, starting with my brothers manual '98 sunfire and then with an auto '95 z28 . It's burned in my brain why i had to have a manual, and I'm confident i could have almost ran circles around the camaro in that sunfire, just because i could control the shift points and tire spin. The camaro lost alot of time shredding those radials!

Autocrossing isn't everyone's goal, but just in driving around town i have more control over my car, and i have more fun doing it.

 

Manuals are generaly better, but the T5 did not have a high hp tolorence. That is why when you look in magazines, like auto trader, and you see hot rods and muscle cars with new engines, suspenssions, and transmissions, you never see T5 listed if it's a manual. But alot of the will have modified 700R4s if they are automatic, and I am talking ALOT of them.

 

i had a stock 700r4 back when i got my car in 06... i hated the fact that it was a auto... it was slow shifting and just felt slow and mushy.... but since my 700r4 is probuilt to 500hp with all the good stuff and had a shift kit and ten inch 3000 stall and i love it... dont even want a manual anymore... when you get on it i can chirp tires from first to second and second to third if im at wot..... car feels alot stronger, shifts feel excellent i can hold any gear at any rpm and i can manually shift if i want better take offs... I just love everything about it... to me nothing is better than a properly built and stalled auto...... i say for what im doing im sticking to built and stalled autos...

 

I have magazine road tests from 87-87. They all show 305 5pd consistently quicker than 350L98. 305 iroc tpi 14.9, 350 gta's mid to low 15. And a stripped down 305spd formula beating them all.14.6 These are bone stock, I had a 5pd formula back in the early 90's. weak transmission, but on a good day would keep up with my best friends heavy modded 383 1980 z28. Have copies to prove, also top speed test of american cars to come 1987, sorry GN fans not so good on the top end governor limited.Peace

 

Motor trend 1986 preview of the 1987 Iroc with 350TPI = 14.5 @ 95.

And there are several others that report mid 14's for L98s as well.

I've also seen a bone stock 89 GTA with all the goodies go 14.4 @ 96. This was with 79k on the clock and about 16 years after it was built.

305TPI 5spds were CLOSE to the L98's #'s, but not consistently faster than an L98.

 

The archive is huge. I've seen 10 year old threads resurrected.

Manuals and automatics both have their own place. I depends on exactly what you want to do with the car. As mentioned above, for autocross racing, a manual gives much better control. For drag racing, a well built automatic with a proper converter stall speed can be just as fast as a manual plus be more consistent.

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/hist...e-vs-1-le.html

1991 305 1LE (M5) vs 350 1LE (A4) magazine test.

1/4 mile times:
305 14.7 seconds at 93 mph
350 14.3 seconds at 96 mph

For older people, the 1960's cars had way better setups with manuals. Close ratio 4 speeds vs 3 speed (or 2 speed) autos. Manual hands down.

Later on, especially on economy cars, the manual is better. I used to have a Sunbird with a 5 speed manual. The other option was the TH350 3 speed auto. The cars with the auto were dogs. The lack of overdrive meant that the 3 speed auto had a taller axle ratio too. The manual was decent. Fun little car.

For our cars? I'd take the auto. And with a ProBuilt Shift kit with even a stock converter (like my car), it's oodles more fun than a manual. On the other hand, an automatic needs a shift kit, cooler, and converter to really go racing. A manual needs nothing. And manuals are typically cheaper to repair as well.

I will admit though that I wouldn't mind a 6 speed manual were I to buy a new Corvette.

I guess it really depends on what kind of car, your use, and what you plan to do.

 

But it's still just a 4 speed with two OD gears. Driving around town, you'll rarely use the OD gears.

 

I agee, my mild stock 87 tpi 305tpi auto, is an amazing driver car, just ran back and forth to Niagara falls 4hr trip no problems 2.73 gears 1700 rpm at 60 mph problay 27-30mpg,, incidentally weighed my car at the local landfill sorry its in KGs guys butI got 1660 kg with me in it i way 195lb, about 3495lb