michael

iTrader: (1)

Looking up videos online for Ford 9" it seems that you just remove the 4 backing plate bolts and the axle shaft slides right out with no slide hammer needed.

Is this any different on the Moser 9" for 3rd gens? Are there any clips that have to be removed on the center section via removing the center case?

I'm hoping the part numbers for the bearing and seal I ran into are correct. Moser wasn't much help since they stated the differentials are built to order. I of course didn't order it and the previous owner of the car got the rear end second hand.

Also what is the best axle bearings? LS1tech members seem to swear by using the Napa 88128RA in their Moser rears which is twice as much as the National 88128RA at Orielly. I don't want to be doing this again any time soon.

big gear head

Are you using sealed ball bearings or tapered roller bearings? The sealed ball bearings use a seal inside the axle tube and the tapered roller bearing uses a seal on the outside of the bearing. Ball bearings are for street and drag racing. Tapered roller bearings are for street and auto cross or road racing.


Remove the 4 bolts that hold the backing plates on and pull the axle out. Nothing more needed.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Street use. I can only assume it has sealed now. Which is what I intend to go back with.

big gear head

Moser doesn't usually send seals with the ball bearings. I always add the seals when I build one. Chances are yours doesn't have the inner seals if it has the ball bearings.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Hypothetical

If I pull it apart and all that is there is a sealed bearing. A seal would install on the axle shaft after the bearing and spacer correct?

big gear head

Yes. If the only problem that you are having is a leak then as long as you have the sealed ball bearings you can install a OEM style seal in the axle tube and it will fix your leak. If you have the tapered roller bearings do not install the inner seal. It will starve the bearing for oil and the bearing will go bad quickly. Sealed ball bearings have grease packed in them and don't need oil from the rear end.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Should there be a channel for the seal to sit in the axle tube?

big gear head

If it's a Moser rear end then it will have a place for the seal. Some of the other after market rear ends don't have a place for the seal.

michael

iTrader: (1)

If this damn rain would ever stop I could get it up on stands and get the wheels off etc and check the rear out. :-(

Don't want to be pulling out axles if it could rain at any time. If I'm understanding all the pictures I've been looking at in the meantime. If the bearings are ok and if there is/isn't a seal installed in the tube I could just replace/actually install a seal and put some rtv on the channel for the bearing and slap the axles back in correct?

All the axle breakdown diagrams I've been looking at the seal is installed in the axle tube first and can be accessed once the axle is pulled.

Also from what I've been reading is there shouldn't be any slop in the axle bearings with the axles installed since this isn't a c clip rear. If it were a c clip rear I would have a little in/out movement. Am I correct on that assumption? That is really the only way to check the axle bearings other then visual inspection for pitting, blueing, etc to the actual bearing from what I'm seeing online anyway.

I could do the seals here at home on the driveway if the rain would ever quit. But if the bearings need to be replaced I need to drive 35 minutes south to my fiances parents house where her dad has a shop and a 20 ton press for installing the new bearings.

Monday looks like the only good day I may get a chance to look at it. Although I won't have a lot of time to look at it Monday unfortunately.

big gear head

Again, it depends on which axle bearings you have. If you have the sealed ball bearings then the seal change is simple. If you have the tapered roller bearings then it will require changing the bearings also.


There should be no or very little axle end play with this type of rear end. It can be hard to tell if a sealed ball bearing is going bad because sometimes you can't feel any roughness in it when you turn it in your hand. The tapered roller bearings are easier to inspect because they come apart and you can see the rollers.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Finally got a day with no rain so pulled the passenger side axle since it had some in and out play to inspect which type of bearings it has.

First pic is the axle tube. Second pic is of the bearing against the lock ring. Third pic shows the play in the bearing with it pulled away from the lock ring about 1/8". The last two shots show the condition of the seal or lack there of. I can only imagine what the drives side looks like since it's the side that is leaking now after adding lube to the inspection port.

So back to square 1 with finding the bearings since I thought I had sealed and was shooting for the 88128RA with 15142 seal. Brian at Moser said any A20 bearing but it doesn't seem the house brand is a tapered bearing looks more like a ball bearing and the National looks like it's just the race and bearing with no seal or lock ring. So I would have to find out what seal and lock ring go with it.

Frustrating not knowing rear ends and dealing with an aftermarket rear end. LOL Had it been the stock rear from a 91 Formula parts would be a snap.

big gear head

I don't see a problem with the bearing, but the seal is shot. You can't use the bearing again after you press it off, so replacing the seal requires a new bearing too.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Yea I get that. Brian did say I shouldn't be able to move the bearing by hand at all. Even though there is some room it moves on the shaft. With it having to be pressed on I wouldn't think it should move by hand either.

big gear head

Is the inner race moving or just the cage with the rollers? If the cage and rollers are moving then that's not a problem at all. If the inner race is moving then that could be a very big problem.

michael

iTrader: (1)

You know I wish I paid closer attention to it before I put it back together. lol If your talking about the inner race being the part of the bearing that is against the axle shaft I'm really not sure. It could just be the cage and rollers that is moving. If you notice in the pictures there is a difference in the cage and roller placement between the two pictures. I guess if it's not raining again tomorrow I'll have to pull it back apart and take another look. I don't have any more time today. Have to leave in less then an hour to go to my daughters awards ceremony and concert for band. Here's to hoping it doesn't rain tomorrow. :-(

If the inner race as your calling it (part of the bearing that is closest to the shaft) is actually moving also then I need new axle shafts because the shaft is worn too much for the bearing?

big gear head

Right, the inner race is the parts that is actually pressed on the shaft. You can cut the cage and all of the rollers will fall off, but the inner race will still be on the shaft. If the inner race is moving around then you will probably have to replace the axle.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Brian at Moser is saying the cage and rollers shouldn't slide at all. Any wheel bearings I've ever dealt with that are tappered have some movement. Guess I'll just find out when I pull the axle again.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Went to Oreilkys and checked out the A20 that Brian said to use. Will update with pics later when I'm at my computer. The A20 is tapered yet somewhat sealed. It has a 2 stage outer race that is part of the whole bearing. Meaning you can't directly see the rollers unless you look at the front or back of the bearing. The outer edge is sleeved with the inner most part being what would be the race that presses into the axle housing on what I have currently. The right most part of the bearing is where the seal slides on.

The more expensive National bearing doesn't even come with the seal. While the cheap house brand does.

So still at a loss on what I need parts wise.

When I got home from that excursion I pulled the axle again. The inner race of the bearing stays put. So it's just the cage and rollers that have that 1/8" of in and out movement. So the shaft is ok.

After inspecting more I did notice something that could be an expensive problem though. What does it mean for the axle tube if there is pitted grooves and lips in the end of the tube? The only thing I can think of that would have caused this is The original owner of the axle blew up a bearing and the lock ring wore the grooves in the end of the tube.

I don't know if this crap has hurt the integrity of the tube or not. With the current bearing setup nothing is anywhere near touching the inside of the tube so the damage is who knows how old.

As I said I'll toss up pics later around 10:20 central when back at my computer.

michael

iTrader: (1)

I'll start the pictures with the semi sealed A20 bearing Brian suggested was the replacement for the one that is on the shaft now. That part number is obviously not the same. The whole unit is one piece nothing slides off of what is in the picture.

First picture is of the thicker side. The one that I mentioned appears to have the race for the end of the axle tube already part of the bearing.

Second pic shows it on it's side where you can see on the right is the less thick side where the seal would slide on. This obviously isn't what's installed currently. I don't know if this superseeds the style that is on the shaft now or what. I don't understand how this setup would work though. The bearing itself has to be pressed on the axle shaft. Then how the hell do you press the race part into the axle tube/housing? Surely it doesn't just sit in the end of the housing where the current race is pressed in. That wouldn't allow a stationary surface for the inner tapered bearings to actually spin. Meaning both the inner tappered bearings and the main bearing housing (with what I'm calling an attached race *the thicker part*) would/could both spin.

Now onto what may be a problem the inside of the tube at the housing end:

Third pic is of the side closest to the front of the car. I'm working out to in with my findings. The part that is closest to the shot is the currently installed bearing race. Next there is a bit of a gap. (Shouldn't the race be all the way back as far as it can go closing that gap up?) Next in question is scuffing that is in a band all the way around and between 1/8"-1/4" in depth (meaning from front of the axle shaft toward the inside not deep into the steel). Following that is a lip that seems as if it is gouged into the tube (metal taken away from the scuffed spot I mentioned just before this). It starts in the middle at the bottom (6:00)then goes around the inside of the axle shaft getting thicker to probably just under 1/8" counter clockwise getting thinner (not as much of a lip) as it nears (9:00) making 3/4 moon. It smooths back out between 9:00 and 6:00.

The next spot in the brownish colored area is the reverse of the last. It isn't a lip but a gouge that is cut into the tube. Starts about at the 3:00 position going clockwise to around the 10-11 position and then is smooth from there back to 3.

Last spot is the thick spot at the furthest back position of the tube end. I originally suspected this would be the stop for an inner seal had that type of bearing (sealed) been used. Wiping everything down and looking straight in the axle tube proves otherwise. As you can tell from the shots the side closest to the front of the car (right in the photos) the tapered lip you can see is not there and just a lip is left on the right side from about 12:00 to 5:00 this starts and stops and gets worse in the middle of that on a clock as you can see from the photos.

What I don't understand is wtf caused this? Nothing that is on this axle shaft is even close to touching that part of the tube. There has to be about 3/8-1/2 of space around the lock sleeve all the way around the housing before it would even come close to touching that part of the tube. The only thoughts I have on what did this is at some point a bearing blew the %##^ up and the lock sleeve was dragging on the tube until the idiot who originally owned this rear figured out what was going on.

Then again though the end of the axle is supported and bolted to the end of the housing. Unless somehow the bolts broke/nuts backed off and the axle became unbolted from the housing which would allow the axle to walk out some and then the lock sleeve could ride around inside the tube some.

Now the main problem is does this damage to the tube look terminal? Are the tubes/housing ends thick enough this doesn't really affect anything?

To the original thing that could have been an issue if I didn't post about it earlier. The inner race of the bearing does in fact stay still. It was just the cage and rollers moving in and out on the shaft. So the axle is ok.

If the tube is ok with the damage then I'm still on the bearing hunt LOL Because I just don't see how the A20 is going to work.

Other pics are just different angles to show what I discussed above. Fourth pic you can see the scarring better on.

big gear head

That bearing is correct. You just need the seal and ring to go with it.


Damage to the housing ends will not hurt anything. Put bearings on the axles and run it.


Be very careful when installing the axles. The seal has a rubber seal that goes around the outside. This must fit into the housing end without being torn or damaged.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Yea the National came with the lock ring just not the seal. I asked the dumb kid at Oreilly if he showed a seal that with with the national bearing. And he was just bewildered. TRAINING PEOPLE TRAINING!

Do you just use the retainer nuts/bolts to press the bearing into the housing end?

THANK GOD TO THE HOUSING END DAMAGE NOT BEING THE END OF THE WORLD!

big gear head

The bearing will slide into the housing. You should be able to pull the old races out by hand, or will a little help from a screwdriver.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Thought the race was press fit into the end out the housing?

big gear head

Nope, unless there is something wrong with the housing end the bearing will slip in.

michael

iTrader: (1)

So I should be able to pull/pry the current race out of the housing end. the housing end appears just fine from what I can tell although the race was installed so who knows what is under the race. LOL

Also any specific rtv to use like grey, copper, black, red, or blue of permatex? It had blue on it before.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Ordered two National A20's, 2 3195 seals, blue rtv, and a motor mount for the caravan for $92.60 shipped from Advance. Now to see if I can press the bearings on with a 12 ton press when they come in. Going to pull the axles and the center assembly and spray everything down with carb cleaner inside and clean everything up outside before putting it back together. Would really like to pull the whole rear and repaint it but that's for another time.

big gear head

I've been pressing those bearings off and on with a 6 ton press for many years.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Will be doing the bearings and seals today if ups gets here soon enough. Can't remember if yours is tapered or sealed but if tapered do you apply any rtv to the mating surface inside the housing for where the seal is going to reside? Blue or black? I ordered blue because blue was already on the backing plate to retainer plate mating surface but with pulling the center carrier to drain and inspect the gears it seems everyone uses black rtv for the carrier reinstall.

So I guess I'm picking up some black rtv. Also seen mention of copper washers on the studs. I don't remember if there were any under there. Also seeing talk about using the nuts with nylon in them on the reinstall is that really necessary? All the nuts were there when I was under it weeks ago and it's been opened up to change the posi unit by the previous owner and none of the nuts have backed off. For all I know they are the nylon insert nuts. I don't remember when I was under there before nor did I pay any attention to the kind of nuts on the carrier. LOL

Also I decided against using the gear oil that has been sitting in the garage for at least 7 years sealed for when I put it all back together. Brian from Moser recommended I just use standard 80w90 and not synthetic since there is no knowing what is in the carrier other then a Auburn Pro Posi. Looking around online at all the parts stores all I'm seeing is either synthetic or the stuff that isn't synthetic states limited slip right on the front of the bottle. So I'm kinda stumped with what lube to put back in here on a permanent basis.

Looks like Auburn recommends against using synthetic. They state:

Auburn Gear limited-slip differential design has been extensively tested with high quality
non-synthetic 80W90 hypoid oils treated with GM or Ford friction additives (3 oz. of additive
will treat 1 quart of oil). To avoid differential clutch chatter (noise) and for optimum
performance, use the oil and additive described above. Use of other additive and oil types may
cause differential clutch chatter.
! Ford Part Number: C8A219B546A
! GM Part Number: 1052358

So apparently the posi unit is referred to as a limited slip um........ Sure

Looks as though I could just use this

big gear head

If you got the tapered roller bearings then you don't need to use any sealer around the seal. You also don't need any sealer on the backing plates. Any good RTV sealer will work on the differential. Don't bother with the copper washers. When you get the chunk installed put a bead of RTV around the stud before you put the washers and nuts on. This works better than the copper washers. The only reason the copper washers are used is to prevent leaks around the studs. RTV works better. No need for the ny-lock nuts. Use standard nuts with lock washers and torque them to 35 foot pounds. Put RTV on the stud first, then a flat washer, then the lock washer and then the nut.


If you have the Auburn differential then I wish you luck with it. You will need to use at least 1 bottle of Ford limited slip oil additive. I don't care what the oil bottle says, you will need the additive. Most of the time the Auburn requires 2 bottles of the additive.

michael

iTrader: (1)

I updated the above post with information from Auburn.

Looking at the following lube: Valvoline Castrol Then there is Lucas or the house brands that are not synthetic. Not much choices.



UPS just dropped off the package. Although I think we are going to push off the bearing work till Saturday. It's already 10:20 and my fiance is having Physical Therapy right now. We still have to pick up the gear lube and an alternator. (Noticed it was making a clanking sound when the car gets shut off. Took the belt off and sure enough it has some bearing noise.) I think we will still take everything down to Venus today in the Caravan that way when we do go to do the work there is more room in the back for my fiances push chair.

Got off the phone with Auburn. They said 80w90 non syn and either their additive or an additive for limited slip from AZ etc. 3oz per qt is what he says they require. He said if it is making any noise a little more of the additive won't hurt anything. So looking at 2qts of 80w90 and either this or this The first one I would need 2 of because it's only 4 oz even though it says one bottle will treat 2 qts of lube. The other is enough plus an oz. That's saying 2 qts of 80w90 is enough for the dif. I think I'll pick up 3 just in case.

big gear head

Use Ford limited slip additive. That other stuff is crap. Only Ford and GM additive work. Go to your Ford dealer and get the correct additive.


Yes, Posi is limited slip. Posi is Eaton's trade mark name for their clutch type limited slip differential. Somewhere along the line people started calling all limited slip differentials "posi". This is incorrect because only Eaton has the right to the name Posi. Others are Traction Lock, Sure Grip. Safety Track, Power Lock...... All of these are limited slip differentials.

michael

iTrader: (1)

I always thought limited slip was the one leggers and posi was both wheels all the time. I picked up two bottles of the Ford stuff from Auto Nation Ford.

big gear head

Nope, Posi is Eaton's limited slip differential. All limited slip differentials will limit the amount of slip in the differential so that both tires get some power.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Well the rain finally stopped here and we were all ready this morning to take the bird down and do the axle seals and bearings. Until the car wasn't disengaging the clutch right in the driveway. :-( Clutch pedal is depressed shift into a gear and the car is moving on it's own with the pedal still depressed.

Got it up in the air after driving south to pick up all the stands etc we previously took down to be able to get the car up when we got it down to my fiances dad's shop. Pulled the slave and looked inside the best I could. I think the lip on the end of the TO bearing is sheered off causing the clutch to stay engaged all the time. I put the slave back in because I was pissed off and didn't want to mess with it anymore today.

Will pull the slave again tomorrow and see if I can get a better look. With the fork pushed in the trans though there is a good 1 1/2-2" of forward/backward movement of the fork. (Pushing toward the bell housing pulling away from it toward the tail) It didn't look like the end of the fork slid in anywhere (against the TO bearing) I have a feeling the lip is sheered on the bearing which blows because I'll have to pull this sob alone. I've done many 700r4's never personally did a clutch or pulled a manual for that matter.

While I was under the car though checking out the rear end. I noticed there isn't alot of forward clearance for the center carrier to move toward the front of the car away from the 9" before it would hit the exhaust. The only way I can feasibly see to remove the carrier so I could inspect and clean everything is to fully drop the rear axle. All the exhaust is welded together so it's not like I can unbolt it before the rear and pull the tips/muffler and go about business. Which this really sucks also.

Just more and more piling on. Won't mention some of the other bits I noticed over the past two days of things that don't seem right. Car sits unused for 4 years=car has issues. Those issues keep seeming to build up and multiply.

big gear head

You should be able to put stands under the frame and let the rear end drop low enough to get the center chunk out.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Torque arm is still connected so that may be holding it up some. It's on stands currently and there doesn't look like there is enough room to pull it out and clear the 9" housing.

Could be the torque arm or the shocks still holding it up too high. I'll get a better look when I climb under and pull the slave again today.

michael

iTrader: (1)

Climbed under it and took some clearance shots. They really don't show how tight it is. There is probably 2-2.5 inches before the yoke end of the carrier would hit the exhaust. I know there is more then 2-2.5 inches of gears etc inside the housing. The exhaust actually does have a clamp in this area to remove the muffler and tips from the main exhaust line but it would still need to be disconnected all the way up front at the collector because everything else is welded solid.

It also appears that the end plate to the carrier housing has a leak. As can be seen in the pics. Does that mean the yoke has to come out to get that end plate off and change the gasket? I was noticing all the crap involved in the pinion adjustment or what ever it's called. I don't have a clue about all that or know how to do it let alone have what ever gauges are needed to measure nor how to use them. LOL You can also see it's up on stands in the back and the rear is sagged down as far as it can go without removing other parts.

As for my clutch issue took another look at the TO bearing and the grab lip is in fact still attached to the TO bearing so that isn't the disengagement issue. I started a thread for that in this same section. I'm back to the hydraulics I guess in that respect.

big gear head

Looks like the pinion seal is leaking too. The pinion housing has a O ring on it. Remove the 5 bolts that hold it in and pull it out. It's going to be in there tight. Replace the O ring and put it back in with the same shims that are in it now. The pinon depth will not change.