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I know this has been beat to death, but I am wonder if there is another manual trans upgrade option for our cars.
I have an 83 TA with a 350 and t5. The t5 is startingto whine and leaks fluid as fast as I can fill it. A reman runs $1500, but I would still have to baby it around to keep it alive. Which kind of defeats the purpose of the car.
Both a t56 and a tko swap would probably be around $3500 in my area. And finding a 4spd is near impossible
Is there another manual trans option for our cars? Or am I gonna be stuck babying a t5 forever
"Rebuild" won't fix the fluid leak, in all likelihood. Odds are, the place it's leaking, is the front countergear bearing. That looks a bit like an upside-down freeze plug, from the outside. It's on the front surface, up against the bell housing; you can see a small part of it even after it's installed in the car.
The one in the photo shows several of the symptoms. You can see the dark stain of the leak, below it (the case is sitting more or less straight, not rotated like it is in the car; "down" in the car is about 30° to the left of straight down in the photo) where the fluid has run off of it. You can see how it's been spinning in the case: the clutch gear bearing retainer keeps it from falling out, but you can clearly see in the photo a clean telltale band of a witness mark where it's been rubbing up against the back of it.
The transmission fails by the case "stretching" across the front. The force of engine torque on the clutch gear & countergear makes them try to spread apart. The case can only resist just so much of this force and the metal of the CASE gives way, allowing the hole to become oval. It's a "death spiral": as the hole enlarges, the gears misalign; as they misalign, they put more "spreading" force on each other; as they "spread" more, they oval the hole more; as the hole enlarges, … and so forth. Meanwhile since the hole is oval, the fluid leaks out; when the fluid leaks out, the gears run dry; without lube, they put even more "spreading" force on each other; this aggravates the growth of the hole. Furthermore, once the bearing is no longer a tight drive fit into the hole, it can spin; when that happens, the hole in the case wears, in addition to stretching; which makes the fluid run out faster, the gears misalign more, and the process accelerates. Once it starts, it just literally EATS itself. It circles the drain and can't escape.
There is NO CURE other than a new case, and replacement of all the affected gears. Which by the time most people quit driving one in this state, the clutch gear and countergear are long since destroyed beyond re-use, and since the trans has been run dry for no telling how long, most of the other shafts and gears are destroyed as well. One of the worst hard-parts deaths that can occur is when the little tip of the mainshaft that plugs into the clutch gear, develops wear; that basically can't be repaired other than by replacing the shaft. So... , you have a transmission that needs a case, clutch gear & countergear, mainshaft, another gear or 2 perhaps, and of course a "rebuild kit" (bearings, seals, etc. … the "soft" parts); and if it's like most, it has a groove worn in the clutch gear bearing retainer where the throwout bearing has been riding on it, which will prevent a new clutch from EVER working as smoothly as it should, so it needs that too. That only leaves about 10% of the transmission, IF EVEN THAT MUCH, that can be re-used. THE WHOLE THING is ready for the scrap dealer, IN DETAIL. "Rebuilding" doesn't fix this. Even changing out all the gears, even to G-Force or whatever, doesn't fix it. The problem starts out with THE CASE, and if that is not addressed, there is NO CHANCE that ANYTHING ELSE can succeed. Read those words carefully: NO CHANCE OF SUCCESS.
The T-56 is AT LEAST twice as strong as the T-5. "Ratings" don't begin to tell the story... THIMK about what such a "rating" is. If your transmission is "rated" at, say, 250 ft-lbs of torque max, just exactly what does that mean? Does it mean that its mfr "recommends" that it not be put behind an engine that makes more torque than that? Does it mean that the transmission mfr will not honor its warranty to a vehicle mfr that does the above? Does it mean that the vehicle mfr thinks that a new car so equipped will make it through the warranty period, but anything beyond that will result in too much warranty expense? Does it mean that the transmission will instantly turn to shrapnel if that level is exceeded? Does it mean that the matter and the anti-matter will meet and the entire known universe will disappear into a black hole at 251.37 ft-lbs? Or what? I don't know either.
Problem TODAY, in 2019, is that T-56s suitable for putting into these cars are ALSO becoming harder to find. The best ones, in terms of direct swapping, are the 93-97 (LT1) version; but those are all now almost antiques, at almost 23 yrs of age, and there never were all that many to begin with. But even that, under the best of circumstances, is expensive, and has its own issues (like the pull clutch... I have no clue who could ever possibly have thought that THAT was "A Good Idea"). Adapting to a mechanical speedometer is not trivial AT ALL. Your car, being a 83, has the further issue of being equipped with that ancient crappy linkage type clutch mechanism, which isn't compatible with the T-56; you have to upgrade your entire car to the hydraulic system. Which incidentally was the 2nd major upgrade I did to my 83... in about 87 or so I found a 84 in the junkyard and ganked the whole hydraulic system out of it and swapped over,,, it was SUCH A YUUUUUUUUUJJJJJJJJJJJJJE improvement, I could hardly believe it. Also, the T-56 DESPERATELY NEEDS more gear than came in these cars... my 83 came with 3.73, and in my opinion, for a carbed motor, that's the ABSOLUTLE BARE MINIMUM gear required for the T-56. I always wished I had more gear after I put a T-56 in mine, in about 2002 I guess it was.
Anyway, in spite of the challenges, I don't know of any better upgrade path, at least using junk stock parts, for your situation. You could possibly use a TKO (same basic transmission from the same mfr, just built a little more closely as a retrofit into our cars) which gives you the chance to start with a NEW transmission instead of a junk one, but even that has its trouble points.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-02-2019 at 08:47 AM.
Thanks for the response. That is exactly where mine is leaking from. One more question if you have the time.
If the case is the root weakness of the t5, is there a high probability that a reman t5 would have a stretched case? They want a core for their reman, and that means they're going to get my junked case, and resell it to somebody else. Is there a way to confirm a case is good?
Of course. That's where they all do. That's how that transmission fails.
is there a high probability that a reman t5 would have a stretched case?
I would say, more than "high". More like, near 100%.
Then, even if it was somehow PERFECT when you get it, as in brand-new which would be about the only way, once you start using it, it'll stretch just like the one you have now.
The T-5 is just simply too weeeeeeeeeek to be put behind a powerful motor. It wasn't meant for that. It's a gas mileage piece.
I know of no way to confirm that a case is good, other than by installing the CG bearing in it myself. The amount of force it takes to R&R it would indicate whether it still fits tight.
I used to think, back in the day, that it might be possible to mill the whole front of the case off, make a replacement out of steel, and bolt it onto the rest of the case somehow. I've heard of it being done ("faceplate"). No idea the success rate or the cost. Of course once you do that you'll just expose the next weeeeeeeeekest feature.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-02-2019 at 10:52 AM.
What about the world class case? Or aftermarket cases? If the case is the problem, then upgrading it seems like a more cost effective bolt-in solution than swapping the trans AND the rear end gears. Of course that assumes stronger cases are available, it's worth doing, and you can either do it yourself or know someone that can cost-effectively rebuild it. I'm curious as I'm about to embark on a 91 Formula project with the WC T5.
The w... w... wo... worl …[ppppppppppuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkke] … sorry, I just can't force myself to repeat that 80s "PIT Team" "TQM" "six sigma" BUZZWORD... 2nd design case only fits the 2nd design transmission. Almost every piece in a 2nd design is different from a 1st design. Only way to change the case to a 2nd design is to throw the 1st design in the trash and buy a 2nd design transmission. Which, in point of fact, is IDENTICAL externally, application for application... that is to say, you can take a 2nd design Camaro/Firebird transmission (what is it, 88-92 or thereabouts) and bolt it RIGHT UP into a 87-back car, with no modification whatsoever of anything. Which also in point of fact, I did to my 83, in maybe 95 or 96 or so, and drove it like that until I finally quit messing around with that weeeenie stuff and finished up acquiring a T-56 swap and put it in.
It doesn't matter who makes the case. There's still only 88mm or whatever it is between the gears. The bearings are still whatever size and part # they are. The gears are still the same length and only allow for a certain amount of material (thickness). In short, there's only so much that can be done, short of changing to a different material.
It doesn't matter if it's a case with the Frod bell housing bolt pattern across the front. The gear spacing is still the same, the material is the same, it's still a T-5.
The G-Force upgrades are not cheap. I've never used any of them, not least because, by the time I did all of that, and adapted it my GM vehicle, I'd have had T-56 money in it, and would still only have had a T-5. They're really intended more for people who CAN'T change to a different transmission; class racing rules and that sort of thing. I also seem to recall, for some reason, that they REQUIRE starting out with a 2nd design core, not a 1st design; AFAIK they never made anything at all for 1st design. Maybe the company didn't even exist back then for all I know. Similarly, AFAIK the only case they have is for 2nd design Frod, not GM, and that the splines on everything were the Frod ones, not GM... although that can probably be overcome without too dreadfully much effort. I could be wrong though, on either or both counts. But if so, that's not really an option for somebody with a 1st design in their hand. I also seem to recall that the case they make is the same thickness around the gears as stock, as it would HAVE TO be; it's only thicker in places that really don't matter anywhere near as much. A better grade of aluminum, or maybe an alloy with some magnesium or something, but still, there's only so much that can be done.
Also, I'm sorry, the TKO is a 5-speed, not a 6-speed; not a T-56 at all. Maybe the one I was thinking of was the TR-6060?
Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-02-2019 at 12:12 PM.
There seems to be discussion to the effect that the 2nd design case is much better, and the aftermarket gear having a different helix angle (or none if straight cut) put qualitatively different loading on the case and effectively allow it to handle more torque. This seems at least possible to me especially if the thrust forces on the case are reduced.
The main advantages to the 2nd design are that the countergear bearings are tapered rollers instead of straight (in fact the 1st design rear CG brg is the same part # as a 10-bolt axle bearing); the intermediate gears ride on roller bearings on the mainshaft instead of bushings like 4-speeds and the 1st design; and the front CG brg has an O-ring to seal it, rather than requiring its drive fit in the case to provide a seal. Almost every bearing is a roller rather than a bushing, except for reverse and the extension housing bushing. The case is marginally better in that a few areas that are relieved in the 1st design across the front for weight savings or whatever, are fully filled in, in the 2nd design. The shaft spacing is the same, shaft dia is the same, clutch gear and mainshaft bearings are the same, and so forth. I can't see, to the eye, any significant difference in the way the gears are made, but that of course isn't necessarily something that one could see by eye anyway.
The forces on the case that wipe it out aren't "thrust"; they're the natural forces of the gears trying to spread themselves away from each other. The same thing that tears up ring and pinions.
The hype circulating in the world at large notwithstanding, I find no reason for any suspicion that the 2nd design is materially "stronger" than the 1st design in any substantial way. Most of the changes look like ways to eeeeeeeek acoupla more meters per gallon out of cars with small enough engines and that are light enough, that the difference in the friction between bushings and rollers would be great enough to be noticeable. Although by the late 80s, there were very few such cars that could have used any of that in a T-5, the ones that such things would apply to being FWD for the most part at that time. For example, if one of these cars had come with some modern, highly efficient 4-cyl (which I don't think GM really had then, they would have had to buy one from somebody that knew how to do that), as opposed to the old 50s design 151 used in 82-84.
Last edited by sofakingdom; 06-02-2019 at 02:33 PM.
i beat the snot out of my TKO-600 and it laughs at me. was originally behind a 380rwhp/420rwtq supercharged 305. now it's behind my 6.0 LS. replaced a perfectly working t5 because i didn't want it to grenade between my legs. if you want power you have to upgrade and that costs money.
I know this has been beat to death, but I am wonder if there is another manual trans upgrade option for our cars.
I have an 83 TA with a 350 and t5. The t5 is startingto whine and leaks fluid as fast as I can fill it. A reman runs $1500, but I would still have to baby it around to keep it alive. Which kind of defeats the purpose of the car.
Both a t56 and a tko swap would probably be around $3500 in my area. And finding a 4spd is near impossible
Is there another manual trans option for our cars? Or am I gonna be stuck babying a t5 forever
I propose you try and do a comparison. As close to "equal" as possible, but obviously there will be differences.
A Ford T5-Z, GM input (aftermarket),) second design F-body tailhousing (or machine yours for the second design oil flinger,) a 28 spline yoke, and a G-force case.
Yes, G-force offers a Muncie pattern (GM) case for the WC T5. It doesn't seem any vendor ever lists it as available, but it's out there.
Okay, so the labor to build your custom, plus those parts puts you at 3 grand or so. But, you'd be starting with a new, V8 ratio T5 that will handle 100,000 mi w/ your T5, assuming you know how to drive.
The alternate is to buy a Magnum, cut the driveshaft and put a new yoke on, relocate the torque arm, and you could either buy a $250 adapter plate and keep your bellhousing OR buy a Quictime and go hydraulic. I'm not going to add up the costs. Needless to say, you'll have to figure out what your real costs are, and ask what you're really gaining.
A new Magnum w/ 2.97 first gear and 0.63 sixth (this replaces the 2.97 / 0.50 unit) wouldn't change anything, ratio-wise. Ratios are one of the top things to consider when swapping transmissions to a different one.
So figure out what you really want. What you really want to change, if anything. What you don't like about yours. Tally up the true costs, and make a decision. There are reasons you haven't replaced yours yet. The ratios and drivability are probably good.
Originally Posted by ez.rider69
Thanks for the response. That is exactly where mine is leaking from. One more question if you have the time.
If the case is the root weakness of the t5, is there a high probability that a reman t5 would have a stretched case? They want a core for their reman, and that means they're going to get my junked case, and resell it to somebody else. Is there a way to confirm a case is good?
Assembled, no. Any machinist could inspect an old case and tell you how out of round the countershaft bearing bore is. Last time I checked a WC case with a cheapie caliper (not micrometer,) it was a couple thousandths of an inch elongated in the direction of the line from shaft to shaft, and wasn't leaking.
I've been very happy with my TKO 600. In general only minimal problems, none of which I had. Did have to slightly relocate the shifter, but it was quite easy.
It's a BW/Tremec aftermarket T56, pn 1386-000-011 Never came installed in a production car. It comes with the adapter plate to mount on almost any 4 speed bellhousing, or 5 speed? The trans length is slightly longer overall with the height of the 4/T5 bellhousing, adapter and tail housing, so the driveshaft needs to be shortened, but it has the torque arm mount on the tail housing, uses the correct pulse VSS for 3rd gen, shifter is more forward on the tail housing so it should come up in the stock T5 shifter location.
If you find the nastyz28 search result that's actually my thread, lol. I had it in a 3rd gen, then when that car had a fire I put it in my second gen.
I was going to use it behind an LS build, but I decided it's a waste for it to not go behind a SBC/BBC gen 1 engine since the VSS works with the stock TPI/TBI dash in a 3rd gen. I have no plans to ever go to a gen 1 engine, and it doesn't really work in my other projects. http://nastyz28.com/threads/my-6-speed-swap.184955/
**EDIT** now that I look at the nastyz thread, I guess the adapter only works on the tilted T5 bellhousing judging by the layout of the bolt holes. I had it behind a Lakewood scatter shield because that is what I got with it when I bought it, but you could buy the 4 speed adapter and run it behind any 4 speed bell too
It's a BW/Tremec aftermarket T56, pn 1386-000-011 Never came installed in a production car. It comes with the adapter plate to mount on almost any 4 speed bellhousing, or 5 speed? The trans length is slightly longer overall with the height of the 4/T5 bellhousing, adapter and tail housing, so the driveshaft needs to be shortened, but it has the torque arm mount on the tail housing, uses the correct pulse VSS for 3rd gen, shifter is more forward on the tail housing so it should come up in the stock T5 shifter location.
If you find the nastyz28 search result that's actually my thread, lol. I had it in a 3rd gen, then when that car had a fire I put it in my second gen.
I was going to use it behind an LS build, but I decided it's a waste for it to not go behind a SBC/BBC gen 1 engine since the VSS works with the stock TPI/TBI dash in a 3rd gen. I have no plans to ever go to a gen 1 engine, and it doesn't really work in my other projects. http://nastyz28.com/threads/my-6-speed-swap.184955/
**EDIT** now that I look at the nastyz thread, I guess the adapter only works on the tilted T5 bellhousing judging by the layout of the bolt holes. I had it behind a Lakewood scatter shield because that is what I got with it when I bought it, but you could buy the 4 speed adapter and run it behind any 4 speed bell too
Understood. I was thinking drop in replacement, but this still seems like a valid option.
Sometimes, careful shopping, and dumb luck can pay off. I found my LT1 T56 on Craigslist, of all places, for $800.00.
There was absolutely no way I was willing to just stick it in without having it checked out, so I took it to a shop that specializes in manual transmissions outside of Atlanta. Turned out that it was actually in very good condition, so I have a freshly gone through T56 for my IROC, and only have about $1600 in the transmission.
However, once you start adding up the new clutch, new flywheel, new hydraulic clutch, and a Dakota Digital box to drive the speedometer, you’re actually talking more like nearly 3K to do it right, and that’s with a bargain price on the T56.
Definitely going to keep it in mind for next year when new engine comes into play. Its unfortunate however that nobody makes a true bolt in solution to replace the T-5.
Definitely going to keep it in mind for next year when new engine comes into play. Its unfortunate however that nobody makes a true bolt in solution to replace the T-5.
It's not available anymore. You'd have to buy a used one Mine is very low miles
I mean, it's as bolt in as you can get really. The DS shortening and crossmember is really the only things you have to go out and get if you already have a T5
It's not available anymore. You'd have to buy a used one Mine is very low miles
Well thats a shame. Guess I am TKO bound then.
I would be interested in yours if you still have it in 2020, lol.
I mean, it's as bolt in as you can get really. The DS shortening and crossmember is really the only things you have to go out and get if you already have a T5
I agree it sounds like a minimal amount of hassle, but compared to the options available to Mustang owners we are getting the short end.
in the aftermarket manual swaps, outside 3rd gens, t56 has become so expensive, I seem to be seeing cd09 swaps going in just about everything, even behind turbo ls1 builds. it's from behind the 350z cars I believe, goes for like 400$ in good shape and seems to shift well at very high rpms and hold good power. just haven't seen any adaptor plates for the gen 1 sbc yet. but if someone made it, seems like a good tranny. super short getting for the tq rating too. like 5th is 1:1. you could probably run 3.23 rear gears with it which in a stock 7.5 is way stronger than a tiny pinion 4.10 from my experience.
I already have a LT t56 but the pull clutch is such a limit and 1st 2.66 makes me miss my t5.
some more info.. the problem I've seen with domestic message boards over the years is everyone craps on anything different and claims the price vs work isn't there because we are all old and can afford to just buy what we want, even if it's expensive. (i still feel like a 3500$ bare tranny is crazy expensive. my 25 year old self would kick me in the nuts haha) we have the buying power. where else where they have motivation over cash access. and end up being the driving force in mods and we all end up 10 years behind because the first time someone asked the question, someone who's very well written and sounds like an engineer explains why this is a stupid idea and kills the whole thing.
this will most likely be a very common tranny swap for everyone over the next few years. don't completely dismiss it for any number of reasons that sound good but don't play out in the real world.
06-01-2019, 11:52 PM
That's where they all do. That's how that transmission fails.
Mine is very low miles
