My 1/4 time a few weekends back were crap, Total crap. 20.88 (1/4 mile) was the best the car could do. 1987 2.8L MPFI Firebird automatic, 140,000 miles. All the usual suspects are new or read fine (timing, ignition, new computer, exhaust...etc) We checked everything, but the fuel sys. Checked pressure with a gauge: 40. New pump and filter though. Everything behaved fine till a week and 1/2 ago. The injectors or the regulator could be going. Got code 45. It was not coding at the track though.

Until the fuel issue, our main suspect was the cam. Its original, could it have worn to the point that I'm losing time? Going to get an oil analysis done. See, 6 mo. ago it ran 19.81 on the same track. We have fixed all issues it had at that time (coding for EGR, massive exhaust leaks) and have done a tune up.

Well that said. If to have a 2.8 that is running perfect and you have done the following mods, what range should it run in (1/4 mile)?

Cold/Ram air induction
Smoothed and coated exhaust manifolds
2.5 high flow cat
Flowmaster exhaust
MSD coil
AC Delco rapid fire plugs
Taylor 8mm wires
T/B Bypass
EGR blocked off
Beefed suspension
Subframe connectors
17in rims, but the tires are the same overall diameter as stock.

I have done no weight reduction and it has subs in the back

I’m trying to see how far off it is to help diagnose the problem

 

So no one has a clue what a 2.8 modded this way should run. I just want to know how far off the car is from where it should be.

 

I don't know what your time would be man . That's hard to say . There are more conditions than just mods you have to think about . The weather , is it hot , windy ? The driver .Cars always feel faster than they really are to I think . Don't block your EGR off , I will say that . That helps your engine , not performace wise , but it makes your combustion chambers not get so hot . The best thing is just got make a pass at the strip .I like to sit here sometimes and try to guess my time , but really dont wanna do that b/c I dont want to be disapointed -spelling ? lol ) Im so tired after exams , my brain is kinda fried ! I think some of the guys will agree with me around here .You do have a nice little set-up man , check my sig , we are pretty close with mods .

To add to this , we dont know how worn your cam is . If the lobes are worn down alot , that decreases performance big time . With the times you gave me , it sounds like its worn atleast some . Don't take any of this what I told you man as a pun , how clean your injectors are and etc ...

 

I was figuring to have a time loss that extreme, w/ mods it had to be an internal issue. I'm figuring the car should at least run in the 17s. Say 80 degrees, sunny, 70% humidity.

With the bottom end of the engine having been rebuilt twice at the dealership...we know they did not balance it. Heck they prob just threw the rods and such on the counter replaced the bad ones and put them back in w/o matching them back to their original locations. The engine actually shakes when it runs I idle. It has this vibration that will shake the hood so much you can see it when its up.

Again this is why we suspect the cam.

 

It probably has a lot to do with weight, too. (large rims, stereo in the back) Aerodynamics could also play a part, try doing a few runs with your spoilers on, then try a few runs with them off. Seems to me that you might be getting some lift by running those spoilers.

 

I had not thought about the spoilers. Figured they really didn't play a part till the higher mile per hours. Have to play with that.

 

You're expecting your car to go faster than that speed?
Slip in a 3.4 and go faster.
Don't plan on winning any races, as you won't
Unless you get lucky.
If you really want to go faster, get another car or step up to the engine bay & slip in a larger 3.4 engine.
Again, don't expect to win any races unless you get lucky.
These V-6 aren't that fast.
The V-6 can be made to go faster, but it's not a V-8.
We got a V-6 in a V-8 heavy car.
Accpet it.
Or find out the hard way with lots of cash spent & losing to other cars you dream you can beat.
Choose a better weapon or just accept and have a great ride and lots of good times in your ride.
Especialy when the passenger is a beautiful female!

 

Nope the female in the car is the driver, me.

I have no misconceptions about how inherently slow the 2.8 is, esp in stock form. My plans were never to throw enough money at the 2.8 to make it run. I just wanted it to be a bit more efficient for a daily driver. With it running as poorly as it is, it is almost dangerous to drive on the St. It won't get out of its own way. I have felt how it has lost power. I'm just trying to pinpoint why and how much before I am forced to rebuild it just to get to work. This is also the best way to learn.

I know the amount of $ to max a 2.8 would be as much as if I went with a V-8 from a yard car and rebuilt it and installed it myself. With the 8, I would still have room to grow and go. So with a 8 you get more bang for the buck. This is the plan by the end of the year, but I want to get the 8 and have time to tweek it before I put it in. I want to have all the variables worked out before the motor goes in, cam, heads, headers, etc... I don't want to rush the swap.

So if the 2.8 keeps going down hill like this, I will be forced to do the swap before I'm ready. I'm trying to avoid this. I want to get all the life I can from the 6 before I swap it out. So again I'm trying to see how much power I have really lost and where.

I should really get it dynoed. Then at least I would know what the hp is.

 

Wow; if it's that bad, you'd better be careful!

 

You'd be surprised , my 2.8 is the same as my cusions 3.4 camaro and we have both just had tune-ups . Her's is bonestock and mine is modded though .

 

trap speed? 60'? post all the numbers in your timeslip. the whole timeslip tells a lot than just the e/t. those 17" rims are definitely killing you. what size tires? 80 degrees, sunny, 70% humidity is definitely not good for racing but that would only account for about a few tenths to .5 sec. did you weigh your car? you seem to have a lot of appearance mods.
you may not win a lot in street races but you can definitely beat anyone at the track bracket racing. i've beaten LT1's and LS1's at Englistown events with my 93.

 

Rebuilding a distributor is mostly effort and a few electrical parts.
See past threads.
Timing chain.
Also see past threads
Exhaust
see past threads.
What I'm saying is IF you decide to sink ANY money into the current mill, make sure all the stuff you wanna do is able to be swapped onto the larger sized 3.4.
Don't bother throwing money to a this is your HP machine.
Feel the results by the seat of your pants.
Most folks here are guys.
Glad to have womans view, too!
DO you REALLY plan on keeping this V-6 ride
And for what purpose?

 

I just want to keep it going till the end of the show season. Its mainly a show car. The 6 has been cleaned painted, accessories have been painted and polished. But yes, I plan on keeping this car and making it a V-8. If I do the v-8 swap now it will be out for the rest of the season.

 

This was my first time at the track 6mo. ago. Hence the reactiion times being all over. I was experimenting to see what light I needed to go on.

1st pass (boyfriend in car teaching me)
R/T 1.245
60’ 2.935
330 8.525
1/8 13.109
MPH 53.70
1000 17.052
¼ 20.380
MPH 67.29

Car weight w/ boyfriend and I: 3555
Car weight with just me: 3395
Frt. aprox.: 1820
Rear aprox.: 1545

2nd pass (alone)
R/T .583
60’ 2.871
330 8.280
1/8 12.730
MPH 55.55
1000 16.557
¼ 19.813
MPH 68.75

3rd pass (alone)
R/T .783
60’ 2.842
330 8.272
1/8 12.736
MPH 55.43
1000 16.562
¼ 19.813
MPH 69.50

4th pass (alone, but egr coded)
R/T .374
60’ 2.877
330 8.379
1/8 12.875
MPH 55.02
1000 16.722
¼ 19.976
MPH 69.12

For the heck of it here are my emissions readings from 3 wks ago:

Reading Allowed
HC-ppm 0021 157
CO-% 00.00 1.00
NO-ppm 0750 1121
RPM 2053 3000
CO+CO2% 10.1 6.0 min

We had blocked off the EGR system since it kept leaking. Don't know if any of this helps.

I will post my slips from 3wks ago tonight.

 

Onix, the NJ V6 f-body club? Tell me more! Any 3rd gens in there?

On my 17.04 second run, end of 2000 (wow, it's been that long?), my numbers were as follows. The temperature was 56 degrees fahrenheit; don't know the humidity (slip's at home).

r/t...... 0.750 (r/t has nothing to do with your 1/4, but I think you know that)
60'..... 2.362
330'... 6.973
1/8..... 10.818
mph.... 63.75
1000'... 14.149
1/4..... 17.039
mph.... 77.92

So looks like a big part of your problem is your 60' time... what rear gear do you have? What size rear tires?

 

Tires are 245/45/R17 BFGoodrich Scorchers. The rear end gear is 3.42.

The tires have never spun, so traction is not the issue. Its just that slow off the line. Heck, I can't even get the tires to spin to do a burn out. Even if I stand on the brake and gas at launch it won't spin.

 

Never said traction was an issue; just wanted to know how far you'd thrown your effective gear ratio off with your rear tire combo. Turns out you picked a good tire, your effective gear ratio is in favor of a quicker 60 foot time. Your effective rear gear ratio is 3.47.

When I ran P255/70r15 rear tires, with my 3.42 rear gear, my effective ratio raised to a 3.06. That's not a good deal for a quick 1/4 mile. The P275/60r15's and the 3.73's gave me an effective ratio of 3.46.... so you can see how rear tire size influences the 1/4 mile. Luckily you don't have to worry about this with your 3.47.

Pull the valve covers off, get a dial indicator & stand, and you could check the lift of the cam.

 

Oh sorry, missed your direction there. That what I get for ***-u-ming right.

Will this help to see if the cam is going? This part is a bit new to me. I was afriad we would have to inspect the cam directly.

 

You'd be able to determine the max lift of each cam lobe, and you could compare that against the stock numbers... you can't really measure duration directly, but if the lift isn't what it should be, chances are, the duration is worn too (the whole lobe being worn). The only pain is getting the plenum off to get to the valve covers. And you could also check each cylinder's compression to determine how good the rings are.

 

redraif - if the engine is strong and compression checks out, my guess is the TC or the tranny is the culprit. it does not seem like you're getting much to the wheels from the start all the way to the top end.

TomP - the club was started sometime in December 2001 from the firebirdv6.com/camarov6.com site. we have a few 3rd gens and always looking for more members. the more the merrier. we also have members from PA and NY. 2 of our distinguished members run 12's. we usually go to drag events at E-town. we are a chapter of Tri-State GM. you have an auto with an open rear, right?

 

firebirdv6 and camarov6? No kidding; I'll have to check those out. Hey you guys ever find James, with the 13 sec white v6 firebird? He was a firefighter from south jersey, I think. I finally got a chance to meet him once at Englishtown. Yeah, I have an auto with an open rear... I had swapped in a 3.73/posi/disc rear from an '84 trans am, but I blew up the posi. I think I have a message or three somewhere on this V6 forum if you do a search about it... but a $100 3.42/open/drum rear is on the car right now. When do you guys meet? Or is it just at events?

 

James is one of our members and is now known as 12secondv6 shooting for 11's. his current best is 12.669 @ 107.54 mph. he just finished a photo shoot a couple of weeks ago and will be featured in High Performance Pontiac magazine. not bad for a V6.

another one of our members, Shirl, ran a 12.953 @ 106mph on her blown and juiced 96 RS.

we usually meet @ events. next event is the Camaro/Firebird VS Mustang on June 22nd @ E-town. we posted an invitation to the V6 Stang site but so far only 1 Stanger is interested. i think James scared them.

i stabbed a guess from the times you posted. autos usually have slower trap speed than sticks.

 

Shirl, blown RS... is that the schoolteacher? There was a schoolteacher from NJ that claimed to have a supercharger on her 4th gen... quite a few years ago, from alt.autos.camaro.firebird , but she could never produce pics, and didn't seem to know anything about the SC. So she does have one? Or is she someone else?

 

Well we are replacing the fuel pressure regulator, with a Holley adjustable one. Then we decided to polish the intake some more. Oh man does it smell of gas. Way more than it should, so maybe the regulator was on the way out. If I did not mention it before the oil smells of fuel as well. Man what a mess. We got some cool valve covers at Pull-a-part yesterday. When I swap them, I will check the lift and see if that shows anything.

 

Change the oil before the gas ruins the bearings...

 

How did the injectors check out? I'd also check the O-rings on the end to see if they're hard or split.

 

We are replacing the o-rings today and changing the oil as well. I think we caught it in time. The smell in the oil is not real strong, more a hint of it, but definately there.

 

i'm sorry but i need to raise my eyebrow at that one............

how fast do you run?

 

ATLEAST SHE'S WOMAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT

:hail: redraif

 

Just a thought....how much with all your stuff does your car weigh?

 

that's her. yup, she has the Powerdyne SC.

come to the Trophy Marathon @ Englishtown on June 29th and see for yourself. i run low 16's.

 

tom p did you used to live in dundalk MD?

 

am i missing something, don't LS1's run 13's.....................................

 

LT1's run anywhere from low 14's to high-mid 13's

LS1's run low low 13's high 12's.

Both of these are stock times

 

ummmmm ovclck thanx for ruining my sarcasm


you get a big ole for that

 

NO, I caught it...I was just saying.

 

i know what they run. please re-read my original post. i run bracket racing like most street cars do at track events. i don't run heads up which is what i think you might be implying.

 

yeh, that's what i was thinking. Bracket Racing = dial in time, just don't break under it. And the winner is who gets closest to it, automatic trannies are good for this, especially since if you get your launch down, all you've gotta do is run consistent and you'll be able to near win every single time. the beauty of times when a 20 flat can beat someone who is pushing 12's. lol...........all sounds like fun. Went to the trakc tonight myself, but had the unfortunate problem that you can't race in shorts grrrrrrrrrrrr, fat bastard was probably sad cause his yugo would probably run slower than my bird, eh, least my car probably looks better.

 

oh ok, sorry then

i thought you were just another idiot comming in here who thought they were all high and mighty with there 6 cylinder camaro

we get alot of them

 

Car weight with me & my stuff (stereo, rims, etc): 3395

 

Well, maybe the weight isn't the problem, then. Last time I went to Englishtown Raceway Park, I drove onto the scales. My car weighed 3370 with myself (140 lbs), 1/4 tank of gas, no subwoofers, steel rims (two 15x7, two 15x8), two P225/60r15 front tires, two P275/60r15 rear tires, and a rear disc axle (weighs more than rear drum).

Onix, June 29th, eh? Maybe I'll try to make an appearance that Saturday. Interesting to hear that she actually has a supercharger! Nobody believed her on alt.autos.camaro.firebird; especially when she claimed that she put a ram-air intake on it!

 

It should weigh even less now with the fiberglass hood.