Hi guys, I've been reading this newsgroup for several months now, but now I've run into my own problems. I have a hard decision to make about my 90' 3.1 bird. Here is the situation: v6 engine is blown, has about 2-3 miles left in it. I am planning on towing it to wherever I work or have it worked on. I have read many posts about the v6 to v8 swap, and realize that the obvious choice is to just buy a v8 car... but in my position, if I sold it, I would get hardly anything with a blown engine. This means that selling it is pretty much out of the question. I have gotten a quote for $2000 to bring the car to a shop and they will pull out the engine, rebuild, put back in and give me a 3-year warranty on the entire engine and rebuild... on the other hand, I have contacted a local junkyard about getting a 350tpi out of a bird, and they can get me the entire set-up for $650. This includes everything, even the motor mounts. Engine, tpi set-up, computer, wiring harness, power steering, etc... I'm thinking I can get a good performance rebuild for around 700-1000, or much less depending if I get everything balanced and all that good stuff. I am probably looking at another $300 for parts that need replacing from the junkyard parts, water pump for one, so the price comes out to nearly the same either way. One way I do zero work, the other one I do all the work. I have all of the facilities to swap the engine... hoist, stand, and a brother who has pulled the engine out of his '74 Nova 4 times. Another option I have is that my brother has his '74 350 block, 650 edelbrock carb, th350, engine needs rebuild, but not in bad condition, about 135,000. Whichever path I choose, I have one result I desire, at least 15 second quarter mile. I was thinking I could have the v6 built to take a turbo, since the Grand Prix 's from the 90's were 3.1 and had turbo so I'm sure it can be done. The turbo kit will add another 3 grand to the bill of the v6 and I'll have to have the v6 rebuilt for the turbo anyhow... Anybody have advice on what I should do? I really enjoy powerful motors, and this is going to be my daily driver through college, that's why I need to get it working. I'm guessing it will take me less than a month to do the transplant entirely on my own, but with the assistance of my bro, probably 2 weeks, not sure though. v6,v6+turbo,v8? Thanks, Steven

P.S. I'm not rich, so price matters, but I really like the 3-year warranty on the v6 rebuild.

 

Cheapest and easiest way (and most gas efficient would be to order a 3.4 from GM and transfer the 3.1 accessories on it. The motor costs about 1700 and would be a lot less BS than doing the v6 to v8 thing. Plus you'll end up with 20 more HP and 40 more torque. I'll let the ones schooled in this matter take over now...

 

I would get a detailed check list of what all they are gonna do to the motor, are they only gonna replace what needs replaces, or replace every part in the motor during the rebuild???


If there are gonna do a complete rebuild and I mean complete[all new parts] then it might be woth it. a new 3.4 crate is almost 2G's alone.

 

what would you have to do with the computer if a 3.4 was swapped in? If I have to change that out, seems like might as well put in like a 3.8 from the new v6 birds.... unless it won't fit, but I don't see why... I'll check on what the rebuild covers... my bro got his 400 rebuilt by a local performance garage. He thinks it will be about 500 bucks for a real general rebuild. About a grand if they balance everything and do a real nice job... not sure if I really care... One thing I'm wondering, what kind of power difference am I looking at vs 3.4/3.8/5.7 I know some v8's didn't have too much power, and I'm talking stock of course.... It would be cool to put in a 3.8 and then just upgrade that engine... my friend's 2000 camaro feels about 50% than my 3.1....

 

to do w/ecm if swapped in 3.4... disconnect battery (which should be anyway) reconnect to let it reset/relearn. poof, done. Also, since some DFW peeps have to worry about e-check, do you in your part of the state? Abilene doesn't, or at least didn't when I lived there.

 

3.4l in 93-95 camaro/birds its 160hp stock
3.8l 96-02 camaro/birds I belive is 200hp stock
5.7l, no clue??

The 3.4l block swap will be fairly cheap and easy. It can also be upgraded fairly easy to get 185-200hp

3.8l, ALOT and I mean ALOT of wiring it deal with, MAJOR!!! Its ODB2. Doing similer in my truck right now.

5.7l, well, depends on what year engine you go with.

 

so basically if I went with the 3.8 I might as well go with the v8 and spend a bit more money since I have to rewire everything... but you guys think I should at least put in a 3.4? What's the difference between that and the 3.1? Is it an entirely different design? Oh and about the computer, it sounds like you're saying that my existing 3.1 computer will work without re-wiring everything, is that correct? That would make it a whole hell of a lot easier. What about all my sensors and the wiring harness, will that all hook up too, or would the 3400 from gm come with the harness and sensors and goodies?

 

if u want performance swap a 8 in. think about it long term though, dont get something then wish haddent, u no what i mean.

 

I think basically everything from your 3.1 will swap to a 3.4. They are both 60* engines, whereas a 3.8 is a 90* engine, just like the V8's.

You have a good plan with the turbo idea, but only one problem: you cannot find a turbo kit for these cars. It's a custom job, which would involve you doing a lot of work or paying someone else to do a lot of work.

 

Going with the 3.4l, all sensors will adapt. Your just changing block, heads, crank cam under your intake, valve covers, oil pan. No need to change ecm, wireharness, etc. Its a "stealth swap" for the people who live under the emission puke laws.

 

I kinda wonder how the 3.4 compares to my mom's 3.3 in her 91 buick century... man that car is fast... if it were geared correctly... I'd say its one of the fastest v6 vehicles I've ever driven.... definitely much faster than my 3.1 bird... I know there are weight issues... but still buick has always made some damn nice motors.

 

If I were to change over to the 3.4 the 3.1 computer would just "adapt" and all the sensors would still read correctly? that would be amazing...

 

would you consider having the v6 rebuilt as cheaply as possible, even if it takes a while, and selling the rebuilt 3.1 for a v8 car? that might be the least effort way, if you can afford to buy something now and sell that later, or go a few weeks without a car...

 

Reason all the equipment adapts is that you use your CURRENT intake and fuel desgin. It all bolts on the 3.4 block/heads.

Just a few that have done or are working on this swap is ked85, project85, myself (somewhat), and I think the guys name is 91rs or something similer thats from texas.

Sorry if a few others swapped and I havent caught it.

ou can get a 3.4l from junkyard for 200-750, a FULL engine gasket set, and about a full weeks worth of work and your rolling with a new improved engine.

bewear, you will have to use the 3.4l fuel injectors, or if your running carb, a larger carb.

If you want to do the swap, the people metioned above will be more then happy to assist via computer.

 

I would buy a V8. You'll be happier with the performance. I know it's a lot of work. But I believe it's worth it. I just would not be able to stomach rebuilding a 3.1L engine. I would vomit. I couldn't spend the money on something like that. Just my opinion and I am sure it will upset V6 owners. If you were happy with the V6 power you wouldn't even consider an engine swap.

Since you are considering it. Get the V8. Think about this also. You could buy a V8 car. Part out your V6 and you might do alright cost wise. I know if you have a near mint interior I'd probably buy it off of you. Think of that. Or you can use your better V6 items to repair a newly purchased V8 car. I have used many parts from base model cars to correct some problems in my V8 car.

I agree with icebird_1981, you don't want to do something and not be satisfied with the results later. Take your time. Do it right.

 

Tell us your budget.
Tell us your skills
Tell us the skills of the people doing this work.
Go read my 2.8->3.4 Long Block Swap Boogie tech thread.
I've done this swap about 10,000 miles ago. The car keeps getting better & better.
My 3.4 powered Blazer is about to get going finally (THANKS SEARS WRENCHES).
I'm not gonna tell ya what to do.
It's your ride.
IF IT WAS ME & I was there,
I examined all my options.
I did the 3.4 once I figured out all angles for ease of simple detailed swap.
END RESULT IS
Ya love your current car?
Do it right, once.
If it's a 60* V-6 powered ride, Ya can't go wrong with BRAND NEW 12,000 mile GM warranty for a measly $1700 any GM DEALER.
Swap all you old 3.1 ignition/induction stuff, add 3.4 injectors from any wrecked yard 3.4 FWD drive car or a 93-95 Fbody.
Your route, serious, go factory crate mill.
It's brand new.
Can't beat that.
All your old stuff works, the computer, everything.
BIG MARGIN BE CONCERNED
IF YOUR CURRENT TRANNY IS AGED (& only you know that answer) get it rebuilt.
ALL 3.4 swappers, including me report loss of tranny soon after the 3.4 mill is running and car on road.
WHY?
SO MUCH MORE POWER IT'S UNREAL.
It's like you have a freight train under the hood.
You end up loosing the tranny due to increased torque.
3.4 mill is a 160-165 HP 200 foot pounds of torque.
Good luck with your decision.
Again YOU GOTTA LOVE YOUR RIDE
It's a very simple, yet very detailed swap not just a weekend tune up.
Shortest I did my swap was in 5-6 weeks in the Firebird.
I let my Wife & two year old Son go out alone in the Firebird, it's so reliable.
IF in any doubt....
You can get a 3 year warranty on a good used car these days, too.
And $2,000 invested in that reliable ride is pretty good return, also.
Can always get another F Body, later on.
Out in California, dime a dozen.

 

has anyone here taken their 3.4's to the track? I know that my 3.1 made me cry... lowest time I've ever seen is 17.6.... and is almost the same speed as a new cavalier z34/24 or whatever, and a 91 miata... they both came to the track with me and got nearly the same... I really thought a 3.1 could do a bit better than that... anyone gotten faster than that with a 2.8/3.1(stock)?

What I'm thinking about doing right now is putting in the 3.4, or if I run into a money shortage, simply have the 3.1 rebuilt, and in the future get a nice gta or something else fun, or does anyone know which engine is most commonly turbo/super charged out of the 3.1 3.4? That could be an alternative, to have my 3.4 rebuilt to handle some boost in the future and when I have the money to get a nice turbo...

 

No one has ever done a turbo'd anything past a computer generated screen version.
Only saw one once. Twin turbo thing in a Datsum 510.
For that dough, go buy a V-8 car & go faster quicker.
Used tyo make superchargers for older carb'd style ride & such.
None released (EPA certified, either) to public that works with the MPFI set up.
I assume my 3.4 ride would do about 16 or so.
One day I'll find out.
I'm just glad it's damn reliable & quick enough for LA traffic and can power the AC on hot day.
And pass smog.
IF ya need a quick ride, sell what ya got & buy a complete running car.
Sounds like you wallet will be "very opened often" for someone elses "rebuilding purpose".
Install a new 3.4 engine & get the 3.4 injector stuff & rebuild tranny & go have fun.
You won't be disappointed at all.
Your tag could run close to $2000-$3000, but your old V-6 powered car will be brand new.
Read my swap boogie thread for all the details.

 

sounds like good idea to me, what I'll do is put in 3.4 and then later I'll get a v-8 car and make that my weekend car... but then it comes down to whether or not I get an f-body or an x-body... I love novas too....

so will not need a new tranny? just a rebuild?

 

oh, and another question... what kinda of horsepower can I look at with some engine mods? I see all these adds for these 3.0l or less reaching like 260hp nowadays... not sure what torque they get but the 3.4 would be even cooler if I could get it up to like 250 or so.... if not then that's cool too, anything's better than 3.1(140hp)

 

one more question.... what can make the speedometer off? I have stock size tires... I thought that the speedometer was controlled by a sensor by 1990.... should I just replace the speed sensor? or is it something else? when I first got the car I got an 87 in a 65.... The speedo said 70..... its off by a ratio... pretty sure the car is completely stock, but I can't say for sure...

 

3.4l is rated at 160 stock. with just a few mods I'm sure you can reach 180+.

Tranny and speedo are fine. Depending on how worn your tranny is, it may not even need rebuild. Speedo is in NO way changed.

 

how come the 3.1 computer works on the 3.4? could it possibly work on a 3.8, or a larger engine by chance?

 

the more I think about it, 20 hp more that I would get out of moving to a 3.4 doesn't seem like much.... probably would not even break 17 seconds..... maybe, not sure... I like the idea of dropping off my car and they call me when a rebuilt 3.1 is put back in with a 3-year warranty... 2000 bucks though... which is nearly the price alone for the 3.4.... I would really consider putting in a 3.8 or 4.3 but I don't know if that's smart... I bet if I were to go for the 3.8 or 4.3 or whatever, I might as well go for the v8....

 

Reason it works is becuase you still use the SAME intake as the 3.1l.

You use 3.4 block, crank, pistons, heads, injectors, possibly cam.

Then use 3.1l intake, oilpan, timing chain, waterpump, valve covers, ecm.


You pop hood, it looks/runs like a 3.l, Its in "stelth" mood.


Actually, better yet. Its a HIGLY OVERBOARD 3.1l. The block is designed to take a bigger bore then the 3.1l block. Thats best desribed.

Reason we say use the 3.4l heads is that the valve springs are slightly larger, and better.

You may not even have tranny problems with just a 20hp boost. most of the swaps that take place are a large jump from heavly worn out 2.8 to the new re-vamped 3.4l. Like 40+ hp increase.

Trust me, tell your "rebuilder" to use what I have listed above. Or ask if he has internet, and tell him to get on here.

 

If you have your heart set on giving him your money go right ahead.
Good luck with your decision.

 

ScrapMaker1, you have quite the dilema. I don't know what I would do if I were in your shoes. Money always determines what choices we make. If I had power in mind, I would get what ever I could for the v6 and get a V8 F-body. The 350 has got to be the most easily and affordable moddible engine on the planet. Performance wise, it will be a better payoff.


I like the gas milage I get from my V6 and I love thirdgens. I am not a speed freak so I don't complain too much about the lack of power from my 2.8L, although I could use some more power, or I should say more torque. I was going to just have my 2.8l rebuilt, but after hearing about the 3.4l swap, I think that is what I am going to do.

I don't like to spend a lot of money for anything, so the 3.4l swap sounds like a good route for me to go through, especially since I want my engine to be NA. I'll have to look at that swap boogie again.

I would love to do the swap myself, but I don't have a single friend that knows about pulling or rebuilding engines so I will have to have some machine shop to build the engine. I really like the fact that I don't need a custom burned chip, even though I will have one burned once the engine is all sorted out.

I will have to wait until I graduate college, and get a steady job before I do the swap because I will be left without transportation for some time while the swap is being done. I hate being without my thirdgen if I can avoid it.


Well, ScrapMaker 1,
I hope you make a decison that you will be happy with. Like mentioned earlier, you don't want to do something you will regret, especially when a decent amount of money is involved. I think I would regret rebuilding my 2.8l, but I don't think I will regret the 3.4l swap since I would probably have the same performance out the the stock 3.4l than the rebuilt 2.8l.


Talk about a tough decision.

 

how long has it taken most people to do the 2.8/3.1 to 3.8 swap that have never done it before? 2 weeks or so? I can work on it about 25 hours a week

 

You mean 3.4l swap??

A 3.8l is a totally different engine, nothing is compatable.

How many tools do you have access to?? How knowledgable are you with engines.

All this will make a difference on how fast the swap will go.

Things I know you will need 100% w/o doubt for the 3.4l swap.
Engine hoist
Multipule metric sockets, wrenches, ratchets, extensions
Full engine gasket set.
BFH
A working partner, or even occasional g/f-wife-mom would help while pulling engine.
Tourqe wrench
Timing Gun
Screwdrivers
Tourx Bits
New timing chain is recommended.
Of course, 3.4l engine from 93-95 camaro/firebird.
If your manual, will need piolit shaft bushing, if auto, dont worry.
What year is your car, may need flywheel.

 

Just re-read, your flywheel is fine.

 

Funny mentioning about the 3.4 & need for larger carb.
I plan on using my stock original.
In reality I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO CHANGE IT, it'll work.
WHAT I DO PLAN ON DOING IS to make a spacer to raise carb off of manifold base for more forced air & slight increase in volumn (which is what the Edelbrock set up does).
And add another air inlet to carb air cleaner.
I'll let ya know how well my idea works, after I smog this Blazer.
Stil seeking a few connections for passing CA Smog Test.
Any one know on the carb intake base, what is connected at the manifold vacuum connection?
The Power Brake boost is a separate screw on fitting onto back of the manifold.
This manifold vacuum connection, may connect to the PVC valve in driver side valve cover?

 

I have that setup on my 83...

The connection on the manifold has a rubber hose going into the black vaccum cylinder on the drivers side of the firewall (on F-bodies). I imagine that the Blazer has one too

 

That answer doesn't work for my Blazer example.
THANKS!
I have Power Brake booster. Drivers side, that's all.

 

Couple things...

The 3.3 is a destroked 3.8, same 90 degree block as the 3.8, so would be just as hard to swap in (BTW you really need some seat time in a GN/TType if you think a 3.3 powered car is fast for a 6 cylinder )

Verify that the junkyard is giving you a 350 TPI. The 305 and 350 TPI look exactly the same externally. 305 is really not a great motor, 350 is much better and far easier to make fast. Get the block casting numbers and reference them before you buy the engine to make sure you're not getting screwed.

If you can get the 350 cheap and put it in the car I'd go that direction. The 3.4 will be a nice replacement for the 3.1 and give a little more power and get decent milage, but if you really want to go fast (say 14s or quicker), the 3.4 is about a dead end.

 

IF YOU NEED HELP JUST REACH ME. I M ONE OF THE GUYS THAT DALE IS TALKING BOUT DOING THE SWAP HERE IN TEXAS. JUST HIT ME UP W/ A PM AND I LL HELP ANYWAY I CAN.

 

Again
My 3.4 swap took about 3-5 weeks.
I gave ya the receipe so ya can cut down lots of question time and just go get right parts.
I ONLY DO MY SWAPS SMOG LEGAL CA VERSIONS.
More details sure, but still runs great.

 

As to time involved, I helped a friend swap a melted 2.8 for a junkyard 2.8. It took us 3 or 4 weeks, just working on weekends. Alot of the time, too, was wasted. For instance, the guy was taking the motor apart. My other friend and I told him "don't pull the heads!!" Yeah well the next day he pulled the heads, so we had to scrape head gaskets off.

His garage was a damn mess, too- so packed full of crap that we worked outside. Every day we worked on it, we'd start the day by taking the hood off, raising the car onto jackstands, and bringing the tools and parts back out of the garage. And we'd end every day by doing the same thing. His tools were all over the g-damn place, which really pissed ME off. Nuthin like putting down a 10mm socket, and then going back for it 5 minutes later, and finding out it was missing again. "Where'd the 10mm go?" "Oh I threw it back into the toolbox." "Which one?" So we'd have to dig through 3 open toolboxes of sockets, mostly SAE (standard), hardly any metric's. (The whole engine uses metric sockets). We wasted more time than ever looking for sockets! Drove me nuts!!

When we were pulling the old motor, we took the intake off, and other things around the motor off. He decided to snap every vacuum line, and throw the pieces on the ground. He even, on purpose, snapped the big sucker that runs from the passenger side rear of the throttle body, and goes to the back of the intake manifold. That line woudn't have snapped on its own. So we spent forever rebuilding the vac lines. He also liked painting things- right before we needed them. Nuthin like waiting to put a water pump pulley on because the chrome was drying, in 50 degree weather. It was basically a good episode of "when good engine swaps go bad". He's a good guy and knew about engines, but his work habits sucked.

So if you have a garage to work in, and keep your tools and parts organized, it probably won't take as long. To see pictures of this 2.8/2.8 swap, visit http://www.geocities.com/tomp_3rdgen .

Boy, ya know, every time I visit my page, I'm reminded of just how long it's been since I started my tint job and never finished. By the time I put that last piece on, the other three pieces will be faded to hell!

 

Thats a funny story TomP.


3-5 weeks sounds reasonable. How long would it take a machine shop to do a swap like that 2.8 - 3.4?

 

Again
My 3.4 swap took about 3-5 weeks.
I did this under these circumstances.
I was driving about 100+ mile round trip every day or other day.
My Wife just had our Son.
The guy I was working with was addicted to herion.
It rained alot.
I was using my 1974 Corvette for transportation on the Pacific Coast Highway. I only got stopped by Cops once (he let me off! & literally escorted thru Malibu twice.
I never did this level of a CA smog legal swap before.
I had only scattered answers from various sources (try over 8 full page printouts from questions & answers I sent out via internet). Previously I did three engine swaps all with degrees of failure.
This 2.8->3.4 Long Block Swap boogie was almost effortless, yet very detailed.
I gave ya all the answers ya need to make it go faster.
I tell ya almost exactly all the parts ya need to obtain before ya even drop off the car.
EACH INDIVIDUAL ENGINE SWAP IS A CUSTOM JOB AND REQUIRES SOME MORE PARTS AND MONEY ACCEPT IT.
Planning and reading up on this subject is a very simple way to cut down the time.
And spending money, too.
If you delivered the car minus the old engine add to that shipment, the new 3.4 & selected parts needed, you'll remove alot of time, that way, too.

Besides, no one here works at this "shop".
Only you know the true answer.
Planning and $tudying removes lot$ of $urprise$

Have you read my swap thread yet?
That thread coached about 30+ swappers so far.
Join the club, you will not be disappointed at all.
Perhaps you will be the FIRST to obtain FRESH MEAT THE CRATE ENGINE VERSION OF THE 3.4 MILL!

I buy and WAIT for low milage 3.4 mills (both mine were 44K & 50K examples-LOW MILAGE VERSIONS ARE MORE SCARE AS EVRY DAY PASSES).
I also pay healthy money for that choice ($800 & $900).
Rebuilding ain't an answer as that cost over what ya get for brand new.
Ya can bargin down a dealer for that new 3.4 mill, also.
Open phone book offer money/CASH right away (ESPECIALLY BEFORE END OF MONTH!) and watch the attention you'll command.
Enjoy your decision.
It is an easy decision, in the end.
Only happy person need be you.

 

Yep Ked85, I read the swap boogie. I am definately going to do the swap in 2 years when I can realistically be without my car for a while. I am not concerned with how long it takes, as long as it is not something extreme like 6 months. I am going to try and find a low milage used 3.4 instead of the crate engine because I don't want to spend 2k.

I don't plan on doing a V8 swap because I would rather get a better car. I definately think the 3.4L swap will be worth it even in its stock form. If am planning on a rebuild, I might as well start out with a better base.

 

the v8 seems like too much work, and a lot of money, the v6 is more economical.... I bet this swap would not be too hard for me and my bro... we have a mini-storage rented out right now where he is working on his 1974 chevy nova... he has pulled out his engine some 3 times now.... replaced subframe and other goodies... fairly qualified... I am not as handy as him, but reading up on the swap will make it easy. we have an engine stand, hoist, and every socket you could image, timing lights... torque wrenches.... I must be looking on the boards wrong, but the "swap boogie" is a thread? or a downloadable file? could someone post the url? I was looking on the net, and you can get a 320 hp longblock ls1 with tpi, computer for like 6k.... new... or the best value 4k for 330hp/380ftlb with carburetor, distributor, water pump, torsional dampner, and automatic transmission flexplate.... http://www.high-performance-engines.com/ are any of these rebuilt/new engines a good deal?

 

https://www.thirdgen.org/newdesign/t...apboogie.shtml


If you have any questions/doubts while working on swap. STOP and come post your question. We are willing to help. It is fairly strait forward swap though.


Just rem, use off old engine...
Intake, fuel rail, oil pan, timing chain cover, waterpump, ac, alt, pwst, valve covers, distrib, flywheel.

Use off new engine....
Block, heads, manifolds, cam, crank, pistons, injectors.

Replace...
timing chain, all gaskets. Any sensors you may have doubts about.

Easier said then done, but thats the quick "gist" of it.

 

I tried searching for the tech item, but my 2 yr old Son woke up.
really what it comes down to is
Add old ORIGINAL induction ignition system to NEW 3.4 long block
USE ORIGINAL SPEC'D SIZED ENGINE GASKET KIT!
Remove a few details from new mill to "create" the "old" under the hood mill,
Boom
Ya done
ALL IT COMES DOWN TO
Open ya hood, cause that's what the finished product looks like in the end.
That's why this 3.4 upgrade is such a fair deal, you already have all the stuff needed...add all new gaskets, new 3.4 mill, done.
It is that (in concept) that easy.
AGAIN DETAILED!
Pay attention to details ya win in the long run.
Want FASTER go spend the money on a V-8 ride right now!
$2K is a healthy bill for a down payment on new or great used car, already done!

 

Will I gain anything by using a crane cams 2030 camshaft or is the stock cam in the 3.4l block just as good?

 

In the whole scheme of things,
the factory 3.4 mill cam
IS
the Crane 2030 cam.
I refer ya to the GM Performance Parts book and the V-6 section.
Read what was written & approved for publishing by GM
$6
ANY GM dealer.