Okay, I'll admit it. It's time to change the lifters. All 12 of them. I originally started out by changing the oil in the pan from whatever mud it was (it looked like it had never been changed in all of its 194,676 miles) to 60W, and after the engine got hot (real hot-I don't have an air dam and am going to buy one soon) some of the valves started to tick. After that, the engine started to leak so it set for a while without running. During that time, since I had the intake manifold off, I decided to try to remove the lifters to check them for damage and overhaul them to try to stop the noise. I know that lifters are supposed to be removed from the top of their bores and I could not get a decent grab on them with my figers, so I stuck my finger down in the cam cavity of the block and tried to push some out. The ones I tried moved freely for about 3/16 inch and then froze. With a little more effort, I got about 3/8 inch out of the bore on one of them and then it wouldn't move any more and I had to use a wooden hammer handle to push it back in. I think that they might have the same problem the cylinders develop after a few thousand miles, that ridge of metal at the top and bottom of their runs? After I put the engine back together from that, I went and drove with the ticking to a part yesterday and it got worse. MUCH worse. The ticking is more constant and better yet, I decided to check the oil level in the pan and the oil consistancy after I got home and the engine was warm, so I pulled the oil plug and let some drain. The fresh oil I had installed the day or two before was dark brown. I pulled the dipstick and saw a sight that really scares me-metal shavings on the dipstick. I am about 95% sure this is from the lifters that suffered from lack of oil. I went out and bought a lifter puller and will try that tomorrow but I hope that I don't have to pull the entire front of the engine and the cam to get them out. I would like to know if anyone else has changed their lifters and how they did it.

 

Okay, the three pieces of the air dam at $143 will be here Monday, so I can start to drive the car like I normally would soon. I have the new lifters in and the engine running, and the damn rapping is still there! I can even hear it over the disconnected end of the y-pipe! I have changed the lifters, added a special lubricant booster to the new oil to help shut the lifters up and have added an oil stabilizer to keep the oil normal at high temperatures, and I can still hear the rapping! Is it at all possible to adjust the lifters with the engine running? The engine is MPFI and that means I will have to remove all of the upper part of the engine down to the intak emanifold, and I already tried to start the engine with the valve covers off, but I didn't get any oil pressure, so I couldn't start the car. I know what GM says as for the adjustment procedure (thanks a lot TomP :hail: ), but I did that and turned the adjustment nut an extra quarter turn and the rapping still existed. I know the noise is not just exhaust noise becuase you can feel it sometimes on the top of the engine, especially around 2200 RPM when the power smoothes out the vibrations. Oh, and what's the best way to free the stuck nuts on the exhaust flange studs on the manifolds? I have one nut loose, one broken stud on that same side, another stud coming out, and the last one won't move at all. I have used Castle Liquid Torch very liberally and still can't do much of anything with the nuts and I have to change the pass side donut so I can realign the y-pipe so my cat don't drag .

 

Sounds like you need to tighten the rocker nuts more. Not too tight though or you could wipe a lobe.

 

I am trying to get the adjustment right while the engine is running. My problem is that the engine won't build any oil pressure, which is what I need to start the engine until I get a new ECM, with the valve covers off, or even one off. I have no idea why this is because the oil pump should run anyways with the covers off and provide the engine with lube. Any suggestions here would be appreciated, and I new ECM is coming shortly.

 

Am I reading this right?

You changed the lifters, without changing the cam?

Lobes on the cam are probably shot.

 

Furthermore, at almost 200k miles on the bottom end, wouldn't suprise me to find that -

a) the shavings are from the cam lobes. ALWAYS change lifters and cam together (they develop a 'wear pattern') Never change one without the other (unless it's a roller setup)

b) the 'tick' you hear could be your rod bearings on their way out, developing a slight rod knock.

Recommend - Head to Autozone, get the Melling MTC-5 Cam Kit, new main bearings (.020") and new rod bearings (.020") - have the rods re-pressed, and the crank turned .020".

Reassemble with new 1.52 roller rockers.

Enjoy.


OR

Drop a low mileage 3.4 in there!

 

OKay, I guess I should say how this lifter stuff started yet again. I had just changed the oil from complete mud to 60W, and had to make a trip to the doc's office 20+ miles away, and without an air dam, I kind of almost overheated the engine. I got about 7 miles from my exit on the way home and the lifters or something started knocking like a b**** and I was having trouble keeping the car going at a constant speed becuase whenever I hit the gas to speed back up, the RPM's actuall DEcreased until I hit the pedal down so far that the engine revved like I was in passing gear. I've had the knocking/rapping/whatever since. I came home after that and my only inspection, which I failed and had to install new front brake pads, hoses, and a new cat convertor, and developed a water leak after completing that repair. I thought that the leak was coming from the pass side head, so I tried to pull that to change the head gasket, but not having got it off, I just put the bolts back in and left it the way it was. Here we are, two months, two fuel leaks at the fuel rail and the same water leak fixed later, and I am still having the knocking problem. I checked the oil again before I changed it today and I observed that there was actually not any metal shavings in the oil after all. I guess they were bubbles or something. I just guess that's what I took them as because I had just gotten back from a party and the car came close to overheating again, not to mention I overfilled the oil pan that time by about 3/4 quart. I changed the oil and filter again today with NAPA 10W40 (3 quarts) Advance 10W40 (3/4 quart used to prime the new lifters) and Ristone Oil Additive to help stop the lifter ticking. I also added a large quantity of Hi-Tach oil stabilizer to help the oil stay at its viscosity under higher heat, and will check the stick tomorrow to see if it's overfilled or not.

What is the recommended oil pressure for our engines?

Oh, and I don't have the time, the patience, or the money to drop in a new cam at this point in time. I do not have access to an engine hoist nor do I have any way to get the water pump off of the front of the engine-I can't break the power steering pump loose to swing it out of the way so I can finish on the water pump.
And if I'm going to drop in a new engine, I'm dropping in a V8. Either way, a new engine don't fit in my budget, used or new, at this point in time.

 

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it doesn't look good. The 60W oil is a bit much, even in the dead of summer. I wouldn't run more than 30 in the summer (unless maybe you're in the middle of the desert) and 20 in the winter. What could have happened it that the heavy oil got to the lifters and caused the ticking b/c they weren't able to pump up with that heavy of oil (all bearings might not have gotten adequate oiling either). Also, if it got overheated the oil will breakdown and turn to sludge if it gets hot enough for long enough. It's not a good idea to drive it w/o a air dam, as you have found out it will overheat, but that's besides the point. From the overheating you could have also blown a head gasket, although that wouldn't be my first bet. You can check for metal shavings in the oil by rubbing the old oil between your fingers and if any is present it will show up (unfortunately I know from experience when my tranny blew). Overfilling the oil usually isn't too bad as long as it wasn't by a whole lot. You'll get added windage from the crank, but 3/4 quart shouldn't be anything to paticulary worry about. Like I said above, I woudl use 10w30 in summer if you're running dino oil. I wouldn't use the cheap store brand motor oil, spend the few extra cents a quart for Valvoline. You shoudln't need to add any oil additive to stop the ticking, if it did stop it, it would only be hiding the problem until it becomes even worse. The 10w30 or in your case 10w40 oil will be fine, it doesn't really need additives. I'm not sure about the reccomended pressure on V6's but on V8's it's genreally 10 psi per 1000 rpm, but a stock pump could be a bit less. As long as you're getting more than 15 psi at idle and 30 under load it's fine. On hydrualic flat tappet cams whenever you put in lifters you need to put in a new cam. I won't repeat what Doward said since he covered it already.

Really it sounds like this motor needs to be torn down and inspected/cleaned/rebuilt/machined if necessary, at least that is what I would do first, however on your limited budjet I would try the small stuff first to eliminate it before you go into the motor or do a swap.

 

I know that given the fact that the engine has over 195K on it that it should be rebuilt. But seeing as how I an on a tight budget at this point in time, that's going to have to wait. I have the new set of lifters in and need to know if it is at all possible to adjust them while the engine is running. I think that half the problem is that the lifters aren't adjusted correctly and that their pushrod seats are at the exact top of the lifters, and I know they should be recessed into the housing slightly, causing the valves to snap back against their seats when the cam releases the lifters. I know what the adjustment procedure is for the hydraulic lifters, but it didn't seem to be enough to stop the noise, and I want to adjust them while the engine is running.

 

Yes you can do it with the engine running. Tighten until they stop ticking (not too tight though) and then go 1/4 turn more.

 

I know its possible, but I have to remove the MFI stuff on the top end and the egr and ig coil and all of that jazz to get the valve covers off and put it back in w/o the covers to run the engine. But, there's only one problem... the time I tried to do it that way, I didn't get oil pressure and the engine didn't start, and that is why I'm still here. The only way I got it to start when I did that was by using an AC adaptor that put out 12 VDC and using wires to hook it to terminals A and G of the ALDL, and I still didn't get oil flow, and had to shut it down in five seconds to avoind too much damage. I don't get it!

 

Well I'm guessing that if it won't start with the valve covers off and you have to supply it with power, then something must be grounded through the valve covers or hooked onto the somehow. I'm sure you were getting oil pressure with the motor running since there's not way to disengage the oil pump since it's driven by the dizzy which has to move for the motor to run. I'll bet that the guages weren't working (at least oil pressure, it might have been reading the voltage coming from the outside power supply).

 

I'll have to try it again when it stops raining, or maybe tomorrow. I almost have the covers off now but had to stop because of rain.

 

Well good luck and let us know how it works out...

 

I don't hink that I've ever heard of anyone adjustng the valves on these cars while running. You have to take the plennum off to get teh valve covers off, then you have to put everything back together, minus the valve covers for the motor to run. Trying to run the motor without the plenum takes the TPS, MAF, IAC and TB out of the equation, without which, you can run the motor safely. not to mention that the oil will come squrting out all over the place without the covers on. It also takes the entire Fuel Rail out because you have to remove that to get the lower plennum off, and without that, the engine won't even start.

To adjust the valves, just take everything off, turn the crank to TDC on each cylinder(one at a time of course) and then start adjusting. To get a good adjustment, Spin the pushrod with one hand, and slowly tighten the nut until you feel the slightest bit of resistance. This is the point of zero lash. Now tighten the nut an extra 1/4 turn to preload the lifter. Move on to the next cylinder. Just remember to move it to TDC BEFORE adjusting anything.

 

2_point8_boy: Why do I feel like I am talking to myself sometimes? I already said that I tried the recommended method already and the valves were too loose and still rattled like a baby toy, and that is what I was trying to get rid of in the first place.

kfoley: I won't know how it came out until I refill the oil pan, reassemble everything, and put my exhaust back together. I am pretty confident in my adjustment, though. Thanks a bunch for all input.

 

No problem, hopefully it worked...

 

Odd; maybe you should've gone 1/2 or 3/4 turn on the nut. The purpose of turning the nut after zero lash is reached is to extend the pushrod further into the lifter bore. Ideal situation is to depress the lifter plunger mid-way, that allows for the hydraulic lifter to self-adjust itself an equal amount either way. But you know all that from my other post.... all I can think of differently is, were you sure that on each lifter you adjusted, that it's corresponding valve was closed?

As to no oil pressure, yeah, you're right, there should even be pressure with the valve covers off. Where'd you find 60W oil? I agree w/KFoley, it might've been too thick for the system. Even the 10w40, if I recall my "oil information" stuff correctly, has quite a few additives in it. Try 10w30 on your next change.

Are you going by a real gauge or what's in the dash? You can usually find a no-name mechanical oil pressure gauge (meant for installing into a dashboard) for $10 or so at a local parts store. When I did that 2.8-2.8 swap for my friend, I dug out an old Summit 2 1/16" oil pressure gauge and hooked it into the motor before we started it; I wanted to make sure we had oil pressure. We spun the dist with a powerdrill and a homemade adapter of mine (made out of wood, converted the drill into a 3/8" drive- of course, the wood snapped because I filed it off-center, but it was enough to see that we had pressure).

 

TomP, I'm not meaning to disagree with you, but I have changed the oil twice now with 10W40 and have had good results, but I won't know how good the results are until I get the exhaust back together. I went as far as 3/4 extra turn on the lifters after warming the engine up a little and still the rapping remained. So yesterday I put the engine back together minus the valve covers and started it up. I went and adjusted the valves again an average of 1-2 turns each valve.

 

Good luck, but from the sound of it you have probably already wiped the came lobes..esp if you put new lifters on a high mileage used cam. The lifters wear to the indivisual lobes, and a "second" wearing will usually go through the hardened surface and result in metal all through your engine. This of course takes out the bearings, which may be the noise you were hearing to begin with. I'd at least replace the rod and main bearings (cheap) and the cam and lifters as a matched set, just to be safe, or you'll likely be replacing the motor whether you want to or not. Redraif has a stock 3.4 cam (good upgrade for a 2.8) with the matching lifters and pushrods that she'd probably sell you cheap, if you're interested. Otherwise, I'd start looking for another engine. Good luck with it.

 

This is for all of you who keep suggesting that I drop in a new engine:
http://www.speedomotive.com/4.3%20ch...t%20master.htm
THIS is what I'm waiting for. All I have to do is swap over my brackets, pulleys, intake, and exhaust, and there I go. Until then, I'm going the way I am now.

 

Ok, let's try this -

1) You put in brand new lifters on an old camshaft. You have killed that camshaft (new lifters have wiped the lobes out).

2) 60w oil is almost gear oil. WAAY too thick. You've now starved the main/rod bearings of oil, and wiped them. Once you've done that, the clearances go out of whack, and that's the knocking you hear. Bottom end is on it's way out. No way to fix it without tearing the engine apart.

3) Can you adjust the rockers with the engine running? Yes. Should you? No. You get a better reading setting them to zero lash (roll the pushrod in your fingertips until there is no slack in it) Go 1/4-1/2 turn more to preload the lifter. THAT IS IT - VALVES ARE ADJUSTED CORRECTLY - don't do it while the engine is running. You'll make a mess, and might loose a finger or something in the running valvetrain. Any other noise you hear is NOT from the valves/lifters.

4) I'm pretty sure that the ecm will not let the car start with no oil pressure. Oil pressure safety switch, kills the fuel - no fuel = no start. Could be caused by the oil pump just being shot. Very well possible from running oil that was an extreme amount thicker than ever intended for the pump.

5) No matter how you look at it, that engine is shot. Either a rebuild, or an engine swap is in order. There's no way to cobble that engine into working, sorry. Could be wrong, but it sounds shot.

6) That 4.3 is a 90 degree engine. You might as well stuff a V8 in there - all the same things need to be changed. With a 3.1 or 3.4, you just need the block and rotating assembly, and you bolt all your stuff onto it. You also realize, to put a V8 or that 4.3 in your car, you need a new transmission, right?

 

your brackets, pulleys, intake and exhaust wont work on that 4.3, its a 90degree V6, not a 60.

 

Is it possible since the cam runs the oil pump that the oil pump is shot? I mean if you have thick oil going through that pump I would think it could damage it. I know that the cam gear for the distributor on my car runs the distributor which turns the oil pump so maybe there is a problem there.

About getting the PS pump out of the way that is simple. You should see I think 3 bolts. Two bolts are solely in the PS bracket and one holds the PS bracker and AC compressor in. I know the first time I did it I could not find that 3rd bolt but you can get it out of the way.

Have you thought of flushing the engine with a flushing chemical? It would be nice to flush any shavings or junk out of that thing.

 

Most likely the oil pump isn't shot, it's pretty hard to screw one up, there's only a few moving parts. The thick oild wouldn't damage it, but it would starve the bearings of oil ruining them in the process. The oil pump is turned by the dizzy which is turned by the cam, so if the dizzy is spinning the oil pump is spinning. Flushing the engine won't do anything. It will merely wash out some of the gunk in there, it won't get all the metal shavings out and such. They only way to do that is tear apart the motor and clean everything really good and put in new bearings. If there are metal shavings in the motor the damage has already been done and there's no way to reverse it or slow it down for that matter. Some of the shavings would have already lodged themselves in the bearing journal surfaces and will eventually cause them to fail, it's just a matter of time really.

 

This whole thing sounds like it cannot be solved cheaply or inexpensively. If you really want to keep the car go buy some junker while you try to save up some money for the new engine. Otherwise it seems like further damage will be done by not doing the repairs correctly.