Here's the deal. I have posted that I have installed both an air/fuel ratio gauge and I have also bumped up my fuel pressure as high as the Holley AFPR will go. 43 idle/ 55ish running (Stock is 38idle and 43ish running.

Now from what I know about the factory O2 sensor, it reads a few seconds late so what I am seeing on the gauge is actually what has happened about 2-5 seconds ago Correct?

Now I have been told that max power on fuel mixture is around .900-.950volts on the O2 sensor.

Yesterday I was pulling up a long sustantial grade hill on a So Calif Tollroad and had the car pegged in drive entering the grade at about 4k. At the top I was sitting at about 5200 rpms and the car was tothe wood for about 45sec-1 min up the grade. The gauge read about .800v-.850 for about the first 5 seconds and then decreased gradually as the O2 sensor go hotter until it read about .700-.750 at the top of the hill. This is with the fuel pressure maxed out.

I would like to get the car up to around .900-.950 range at normal running temps of the O2 sensor but I can not obviously do that with the 15lb injectors.

Whats going to happen to the fuel tables if I just plug in the 17lb injectors without and prom recalibrating?

 

It generally ranges between the first two greens but when it got warm it ranged down to the last yellow. When the car is floored it stays within the blue lines area

 

Found it...I knew someone else had asked this...see the last 2 posts...https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=247015

I'd ask your question on the DIY Prom board, they would know more about the fuel tables...and if a small increase in injector size can really be relearned by the ecm

 

Thats the first I have ever heard of the ECM "relearning" the injector tables. I knew it could relearn the idle sequence, but not the entire firing tables.

 

dean, somewhere I posted a link to a huge list of injectors. Might beable to search me, and look at that list and find some 16's or so you could get from a j/y.

 

But Jay, whether I go to 16's or 17's, it would be no difference if the tables need to be changes. I know granted that the 16's of course would play less damage in changing from a 15-16 than a 15-17 if the tables can't handle it.

What I am trying to figure and I have basically asked this before on another post is if I CAN in fact run the 15's turned ALL THE WAY UP 43psi idle/ 55 psi WOT and the car is not running rich at either idle or WOT, can I simply put the 17's in and turn the fuel pressure back down to normal 38/43psi instead of 43/55psi and have about the same as I have now with the 15's turned up.

My fustration around here is it seems every time "I" need advice and ask a question I can never get a "trustworthy" answer from someone who is an expert in that feild (meaning someone that has in fact tried it, or someone that is a professional at the V6 computers)

I'll ask in the DYI prom board but I don't imagine any of them are familiar with the V6 ECM. I know Rob? comes in here and techsmurf seems knowledgable about the V6 computers hence why I ask here.

now from what I "assume" the injector tables are based on displacement and fuel demand based of displacement, cam lift, rpm, demand, etc. With this I assume it is a fuel curve that if you run at idle rich, you will really be rich up top. I am not rich at idle, nor am I rich enough up top so I am assuming I will be fine trying them.

I am simply just asking first to save me any trouble I might not be anticipating but seems I may not get a straight up trustworthy tried and true response so I will just take the time when I get some free time next and just try installing them and see how the car reacts. I will then report in full my findings so we will then have that knowledge on these boards for anyone esse to ask like I am doing.

 

dean, i am having the same problem all the time, only i got theese guys trying to rip me up cause of the title i posted on my thread. i just say screw it anymore and just try it to see how it works. please let us know, i am having the same problem. i thought that i was running way way lean, and i was, now i am trying to get the friggin computer to work right. once i got that and the clutch problem taken care of, then i will readress the running lean issue.

 

ok, I'll tell you this....

I have a 3.4, modified intake, slightly modded heads, 1.6 rockers, headers. I am running 19lb (2lb over stock rating), on stock pressure. It SEEMS to be running very rich at idle, but great at w/o.

So, I am running just a hair more mods then you on the engine, and run rich at idle. IMO, tells me that ecm needs to be re-programed either way. 15,16, or 17.

 

speaking of injectors, sending on the 15th, jay!!!!!

 

if you wan't the fuel enrichment only at idle / wot (open loop) you could just alter map / maf reading with two 10 kilo-ohm linear design pots. (ecm will learn around these alterations on closed loop, because the O2 sensor is reading rich). If you want / need the schematics pm me.

 

Hmmm, those are some good questions Dean.

I'm pretty sure that funstick has experience with tuning our computers, you might talk to him.

I also know from poking around that a wide-band O2 sensor is going to produce more accurate readings and be far more useful for tuning and trying to figure out what your ECM and engine are doing. I can't remember all the details, but the narrow-band O2 sensors seem to be pretty limited.

As you know, with bigger injectors it certainly would be good to re-tune the computer. Change the injector constant in the PROM (so the computer knows just how big the injectors are) and do some work in the tables (add or remove fuel as needed depending on the wide-band O2 readings, and maybe some spark adjustments too?).

Sorry I can't help more, I haven't delved into PROM tuning yet, although I hope to someday.

 

I always thought that the standard a/f gauges (non-wideband) were too inaccurate for tuning purposes...though I am by no means an expert on the subject.

 

Can anyone tell me if it is possible to install a wideband O2 sensor into my OBD1 computer, or do I have to swap everything to a newer OBD2 setup or such? If I can simply buy and wire in a wideband (price in not an issue) can someone give me a link to a very good unit to use and how to wire it?

Jay, I found out alittle more info today about how the ECm reads and how it has the injector constant. If it is changed to 17#'s the everything"Checksums" to that constant.

I going to talk to Kevin and Don and have them baseline my computer readings then do some prom work for me in the very near future- its not money right now, its time.

This is the crap that is holding me back from building the motor. I need to learn just whati can do without causing havoc to the ECM. So far I have been fine but I need to learn "what if" in cause I cross that line with upcoming modifications. I think I am breaching that line right now and I am just getting started with the motor mods- G()d I hate computers- wish I could pull it and run some sidedrafts- I can tune those, but this smog inspections crap holds me back. Maybe I should just through a modern stock LS1 into it with harness and be done.

 

I will completely vouch for the ZT-2 setup from Zeitronix. AWESOME, and Narrowband simulated output, for the ECU (aka, SUPER ACCURATE NARROWBAND)

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

I have one, I LOVE it. Best buy I've done, yet, to this car!

 

John, Does that work with the ECM in place of the factory narrowband 1 wire O2 sensor, or is it just something you are welding in another bung and running this as a secondary O2 just for gauge reading?

 

I totally replaced it. I simply spliced the narrowband simulated wire into the appropriate ECM wire... I could find out exactly which wire it is, if you need

 

I actually have the purple wire lead from the O2 sensor to the ECM. Its what I tapped into about 3 inches away from the ECM when I wired the airfuel gauge instead of running another wire spliced into the sensor lead all the way to the gauge.

Is the wideband O2 a 1 wire? And what do you mean when you say "simulated" wire

I really appreciate the help John, thankyou.

*edit* What I am asking is will the ECM read "AND RESPOND" more up-to-the-second with the addition of the wideband O2 sensor into the factory computer and keep the injectors pulsing more accurate rather than the current searching that the narrowband O2 causes the ECM to control the injectors.

I undestand that if I simply install another bung and just a wideband that is gauged I can read an instantanious reading what the computer is actually adjusting for stoich, but that won't make the computer correct and keep the stoich more level on a desired O2 reading unless it is tied into the computer.

 

can someone please help me with all this datalogging stuff and the computer stuff. i am really a idiot when it comes to the computer controlls, and i am needing to tune the computer with the mods upcoming to get the most power i can produce.

 

Dean, the WB02 itself is 4 wires, heated. It runs to the control box (that is smaller than a pack of cigarettes) and from there, you have your output to the laptop, and the single wire to the ecu (as well as the inputs from the tps/boost sensor/etc)

The 'simulated' output can not change the way the ECM works. The ECM will still swing between lean/rich, and use the crosscounts to determine how much fuel to add/subtract. The thing of it is, is that the WB02, being sooo much more accurate, will reduce the amount of 'swinging' the ECM does. I've noticed a LOT less crosscounts, and the ECM can nail that 14.7 afr MUCH quicker.

 

No thread hijack!! Start a new thread on that

 

Thats exactly what I ment when I was asking about "searching", your term is better explaining swing. Is it possible to buy the O2 sensor and just the control box, or do I need to install that gauge setup for it to function. In other words, is there critical eletronics inside the gauge portion that helps that particular unit function or canI just leave the gauge off entirely if I purchase that unit.

I realise from the link that it has its own control box that is separte from the gauge that is the size of a 1" thick business card and can be mounted in the engine bay- assuming frojm thatcontrol box is the 1 wire exit to the ECM- Is this correct?

 

doward, i wasn't trying to jack dean's thread. just trying to learn about theese computers and understand the tables and how they interface with the computer. i been wanting something that does what your ZT-2 setup for you but without the boost stuff on there. i want to start getting into tuning the computer, and i been trying to learn all this stuff, but just as i get a grip on it, someone confuses the S**T out of me, and i am back to square one again!

thanks dean, after what you said, it is starting to make sense again.

 

Dean, check your y-pipe...On Shannon's PF & E y-pipe, there was an extra bung just for a wideband O2. I have seen standalone widebands going for around $350 lately (Dynojet I believe).

 

I didn't say anything, I'm asking questions.

Would you please refrain fromany more input here- Non of youre postings have anything beneficial towards my questions, thank you.

 

Joe, I have that bung using a factory O2 sensor right now. I do not have a second bung in the PF&E headers y-pipe, I only have one. Don't know if you heard, the headers are on the car - have been for about a month now.

When you say "stand alone" wideband sensor, does that mean it will hook right into our ECM with a control box routed but no gauge? I'll check the Dynojet website.

 

Just wondering, Shannon's (the prototype from Greg's car) had two bungs. We duplicated that on the new y-pipe so we can add a wideband later.

 

dean i ment to say that the dialogue between you and doward is helping me to understand how the o2 sensor pulses control the fuel curve. i began asking questions in your thread to learn more about this as well.

eithor way you got it dean, thank you for being nice about it, and not just trying to blast me. it is appreciated.

 

Ok, for one, it makes ZERO sense to have 2 O2 sensors, in the same location.

Dean, all you need, is the ZT-2 package. If you have a laptop you can datalog from that. The 'gauge' has no real electronics in it - it simply outputs what the AFR is, it is only used for showing you what the AFR is.

I purchased the bare basic, no frills ZT-2 package. The only things extra that were required, were some wire and my laptop

A standalone WB02 interfaces with NOTHING. Similar to how a WB02 on a dyno will tell you AFR, but doesn't tell your ECM a damn thing. That in itself, was a BIG reason I went with the ZT-2. I was worried, as it IS the least expensive WB02 (short of the DIY-WB02) out there, but it is amazing. I got my AFR fixed in no time - and with it hooked up before the rest of the exhaust, it eliminated any leaks that were causing me to run 'lean' on the dyno

 

You'll see how it works, up close like.. when we get to the track

 

Thanks everyone for imput, I am taking baby steps but I am learning

 

Not a problem. Irregardless of any WB02 you choose, I find having the narrowband output to be a great help!

 

John, I'm liking what I am seeing so far in the unit you linked and have. Most all I see have the same Bocsh 5 wire wideband O2 sensor, it just sees the brain boxes and harnesses have slight variations- AEM, Dynojet, the DYI setup.

Curious question if you don't mind tyoing a little detailed response on how exactly you mounted it and what exact connections are made to make it function properly. Reason I ask is it looks to require a lead wore from the dizzy for RPM monitoring or am I mistaken? I don't see and schematics on how it is wired into the car.

My assumption is I install the WBO2 in place of my current O2 and connect the supplied harness to it and then to the control box in the engine bay somewhere I desire. From then the output 1 wire lead connects into my factory purple O2 sending wire that goes to the ECM- Is this correct and is there anything else that needs hooking? Thank you sir for your patience with me, I like to have my ducks in a row before Ibuy something I know little about.

I am also thinking that the Autometer air/fuel ratio gauge I have will still read fine since it simply picks up voltage output going to the ECM

 

Every input that the ZT-2 asks for, I pulled directly from the back of the ECM. I can supply you with a pinout, if you need

 

If its not too much trouble then could you please?

Do you think your *ECM* is actually reading the wideband O2 through the simulated 1 wire feed after the control box and keeping the MPFI closer to 14.7 then the facotry o2? I have a few people telling me it will read no different here on the so cal boards.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=309502

I still need to hear from or run over and talk to Don or Kevin at their shop. Don has been teaching me little things here and there about the ECM's and has been showing me his burning equipment. He had Jerry's home made ecm controller computer box sitting there and was showing me how he can simulate the prom changes running on this computer just as if it were in the car running. It even showwins led lights triggering each injector pulsing and you can manually speed them up- this was some high tech brain surgury I was witnessing last time I was there.

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=285837

 

The WB02 will react quicker than our stock 1 wire O2 sensor. I'll get the pinout up tonight