I am in dire need of help

About 2 months ago the timing chain broke on my 89 2.8 MPFI... took it to the shop and they replaced it for 350 (labor only). There was a knock when I got to around 3000 rpm so I brought it back to them and they adjusted the timing by ear.

About a week later it would lose power after driving for about 20-30 minutes. It would idle ok but if I tried to accelerate it would bog down instead of taking off. If I barely tapped the gas I could get it up to about 40 mph and would not make it up a hill unless I had built up speed. So I took it back to the shop and had them replace the fuel pump, strainer and filter. (once again labor only 150)

I got it back and the problem persisted so they checked the fuel pump and it failed again. They charged me another 150 to do the pump again. This time they blew the lines out up to the bleed off valve @ the engine. The next day it did the exact same thing so they said they would clean out the fuel system between the valve and the injectors. The shop owner called me in when he had it all torn down and showed me the injectors and ports that were caked almost completely shut with deposits. (charged me another 275 to do that + replace injectors) When I asked about a warranty on the injectors he said there was none because they are used injectors.

Drove away from the shop and didn't even make it the 2 miles to my house before it quit on me at a stop light. This time when I got to the light it just shut off altogether no sputtering or loss of power, just died. Tried to start the engine and it would crank but not start so i let it sit for about 5-10 minutes and it started back up but died again while going about 45 mph on the way back to the shop. When I got it back in the owner replaced the coil and didn't charge me. I tested it out again and guess what? It died. I got lucky enough to make it into an Autozone and I took the Ignition Control Module in and it tested bad. Replaced that but the car still dies after running for a while and will not restart for 5 minutes.

Have done: timing chain, fuel pump (x2), fuel filter, cleaned lines, replaced injectors, coil and Ignition Control Module.


I am in $925 in labor and about 300 in parts on a car I only paid 1000 for but truly love... any help would be appreciated.

P.S. on top of all the work at the shop I put in new plugs, wires, air filter and a new Throttle Position Sensor.

 

Sounds like you need to find a new repair shop.....

Has the catalytic converter been checked or replaced? The symptoms you describe sound a lot like when a cat gets clogged/melted down. If there is low pressure at the exhaust tip (and there are no exhaust leaks) then I would check or replace the cat.

 

buy a timing light.

 

Yeah that repair shop doesn't sound like they can troubleshoot very well...I'd be finding a new one..

 

They saw you coming a mile away.

Thats how shop make money, never ending problems.

 

Yeah hind-sight is 20-20... I have already told the owner that I am on unemployment and that I cannot give him another dime as I have spent half of my income on this in the last 2 months. I am on the verge of contacting a lawyer to have a letter sent to him demanding a refund. But the shop has the car currently and is "looking into the problem". I actually feel a little bad for the guy as he seems to be a nice guy and to genuinely want to find the problem.

I haven't checked the cat out yet but I will do that if he returns the car unfixed again. Also as I stated in the first post the car runs great until being driven for a while (aside from a minor backfire when shifting gears) then all of a sudden it loses power for a few seconds (giving it gas doesn't help) and dies immediately. Five minutes later I can restart the engine and runs fine for a bit again. Can the cat cause that kind of issue or would it be acting up all the time?

Another strange thing is that the check engine light doesn't come on.

Thanks for the input.

 

Yes, I had the exact same symptoms in a car of mine that had a bad cat, which is why I suggested it.

 

THe guy may be trying to help but he is not very smart, you always reverse flush a fuel system so you don't push junk farther n farther into the system, which means you change d the FP twice for no reason. That ouwld be his mistake and should eat it. He is the one blowing the garbage farther n father up the system causing more problems.

You should least get refunds on some of the labor, like injectors, 2 FP changes n 1 of the 3 flushes that made the problems worse. Plus he should know before it leaves if its all fix, he should be test driving it to make sure its all better.

Guy may be nice and trying to "help" but he isn't.

Why ya gotta work on your own stuff.

 

I'm reading everything and trying to fix my camaro. For one thing, I dont want to take it to a shop for this reason, very sorry your going through this. Second I'm having some what the same problems like you...very very similar. Now you guys that are given tips and info....great stuff. Now I'm thinking twice about changing out my Fuel pump or at least pushing it off first.


Question - How can we check our Cat without taking it out to a shop? I'm having the same problem but my camaro is diferent....I cant drive it but can start it. Hope to hear some kind of answer and great stuff you guys are putting out there.


entrig00

 

Remove the O2 sensor and install a pressure gauge at that location. Start the engine and check the pressure. At low engine speeds, say 900 - 1200 RPM, the pressure should be minimal (less then a psi). At high engine speeds the pressure should still be low, under 2 - 3 psi.

There are set ups for this type of testing. I used an old O2 sensor and made it into a fitting for a piece of tubing. Then use a 0- 15 psi fuel pressure gauge.

RBob.

 

Well, I haven't been able to check the cat out yet as the car is still at the shop. I dropped it back off on Thursday and they haven't called me yet so I'm not sure if that's a good thing. Maybe that means they are actually doing work on it and REALLY testing it instead of their previous 1 mile test drives.

I will keep this thread updated... especially if the problem gets resolved. I can't even count how many times the search feature has helped with previous problems. You guys are great.

 

So the shop owner called me back in today and we took it for a test drive and it did the same thing again. Once again it had the tell-tale loud whine of the fuel pump for about 30 secs before shutting off. He said maybe they (Autozone) gave me the wrong pump so I checked on their site and cross-referenced it with checker. They both matched but when i checked out NAPA one of their pumps had the notation "VIN S". I checked my vin and of course there's the S in the 8th slot.

Autozone's pump specs are:

Fitting Size: Outlet - 5/16
Fitting Type: Inlet - filter, outlet - hose connection
Gallons Per Hour: 40
Pressure Rating: 65-95 psi

Napa's with VIN S specs are:

Pressure Rating:50.8 psi
Gallons Per Hour:18.4
Fitting Type(s):Straight Tube - Fuel Line Is A Push-On & Clamped
Fitting Size(s):19.1 mm, 8 mm

With the higher pressure rating I would think the one from autozone would have done the trick anyway or does that 40 GPH overload the pump with too much back pressure?

*EDIT* One thing about autozone's site is that when I put in the information of the car @ engine type it says "6 Cylinders S 2.8L FI" with the S already there.
@ Six_Shooter I mentioned the cat possibility to my dad and he said it would be nearly impossible for the cat to be bad as I had replaced it about 8 months ago unless leaded gas was ran in it (which is not the case)

 

I wasn't aware that you replaced the cat so recently.

But leaded fuel is not the only thing that can cause a cat failure. Running lean, especially for excessive amounts of time can cause a cat failure.

Has the timing been checked with a timing light?

 

Haven't checked the timing again yet... it's been at the shop since thursday. That's what my pops said as well... he thinks it may go back to the start and all have to do with the original timing issue.

Thanks again for the replies. It helps to have ideas bouncing around.

 

The easiest way to check the cat is to use a vacuum gauge. Hook the gauge to the tee on the back of the plenum and watch the reading. You should be getting around 17" Hg of vacuum. If the cat is clogged, the reading will steadily drop the longer the engine is run because exhaust is backflowing into the cylinders. Running so rich that there is a TON of excess carbon in the exhaust flow will also clog your new cat faster than you can say "WTF?". You can also use the vacuum gauge to set the timing.

Also, the size of the fuel pump doesn't matter. There are a lot of guys out there running Corvette fuel pumps because they are better built, and I don't seem to recall any electronically fuel injected Vette ever having a six cylinder. The extra fuel is dumped back into the fuel tank by the return system.

I see you have replaced most of the ignition system. What about the cap and rotor?

This sounds like some sort of electrical resistance problem. When the temp increases, so does resistance, which is why the car runs again after you let it sit for a few minutes. Next time you have your hands on the car, check every single ground wire you can find under the hood, including the ones that bolt to the backs of the cylinder heads. Look for broken or loose wires and green corrosion. Better yet, do this for ALL of the wires, including the ECM connections. Also check to see if your pickup coil in the distributor is working when the engine is hot. If you're only getting a code 12, that doesn't mean that everything is okay. Code 12 means that the ECM doesn't know the engine is turning over. Next time you and that shop owner go for a test drive, have him bring along a scanner of some sort (if they have one that connects to both the ALDL and the lighter socket) and check to see that you have an RPM signal (if and) when the engine dies and you try to refire it.

If I were you, I'd be calling that lawyer. There is NO reason why you should have had to pay for the fuel injectors or anything that was replaced afterwards if the shop cleaned out the fuel lines properly, and you shouldn't be paying labor on much either because it's the shop that screwed up, not you.

 

Ok... got the car back again "fixed" (Not really) so I replaced the fuel pump relay and cleaned the harness connections at the relay making sure to put everything back the way it was. Now the problem is worse. The pump will not turn on at all. The Check engine light won't come on even with the key in the on position. I put a test light on each of the connections of the relay harness and got nothing with both the key on and off.

Just to cover all bases I wrote down the colors and letters of the connections and put them back as original after cleaning.

A - Tan/Stripe
B - Black/Stripe
C - Green/Stripe
D - Red
E - Orange

I am definitely going to demand my money back from the shop and contact the lawyer if need be.

*Edit* The wires at the relay are pretty corroded but seem to be held well and making good contact with the connectors. There was exposed wire on all five connections and a little of the insulation on 2 had melted (the other 3 insulations seem to have shrunk back away from the connection but were clean). I wrapped all five with elect. tape.

 

Change your relay wires electrical tape can only help so far and in this case it wont try you egr valve or pcv valve always repeat always check fuel pressure check and see if fuel filters on correct flow pattern get your lawyer and get some money back mechanic is money pit every ones suggestion seems to be of equal value to your mechanic just a point to get across a mechanic that is most willing to help is most willing to not knkw what they are doing and just trying to learn as you go

 

Three years later...

 

Have you checked your cat converter yet? I have had lots of experience with plugged converters (I'm a licensed mechanic), And what you have described sounds just like the cat is plugged. The easiest way to check your cat is just remove your o2 sensor, and drive the car. If it runs better your cats bad. All the bad fuel pumps and ign modules etc sound like you may have some bad grounds as well. bad grounds can cause some really weird stuff. Take a ohm meter (multimeter) and check the resistance from the neg battery terminal to the engine block. There should be no more than .3ohms resistance. Thats checking all ground connections in that circuit. Replace the neg battery cable and any ground straps if it's bad. You can do the same test on the Pos battery cable (from the pos terminal to the cable stud on the Starter. Remember electricity likes clean connections. clean any and all rust off starter stud, battery cable ends/terminals, grounds, and any other connections you see.

*edit* I just noticed the original posts date lol, its either fixed or gone by now.