Project 3.4 Camaro

Will these thing's work? I'm thinking no because it looks like the one piece that I'm holding in my fingers is needed as a sort of bearing for the pivot axle to sit in, as well as keeping it lined up right, by contrast the iron heads have non roller fulcrums on them, and a sort of metal ring around the stud, that supports the rocker arm, and Idk if I can simply remove the one piece off the rollers, and remove the stud and just put them on the 2.8 studs or not, the rollers are off of a 3x00.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Took all of mine off a couple weeks ago, hoping to swap rockers when I adjusted the valves and replaced the valve covers. Just push the bolts through until they stick, and then hold the rocker with one wrench while you use a 10mm socket and ratchet or something on the bolt to unscrew the part holding the bolt inside the pedestal. You can use them on studs, but you'll need to have the heads heli-coiled or something to accept a 3/8-16 stud so you can use poly locks (stock nuts won't work on the rockers, found that out the hard way). Because they don't make a poly lock with 10mm threads .

It's either that, or I found on 60* that you need to put washers or something under the pedestals for proper spacing to keep them together when using the iron heads.

Project 3.4 Camaro

What exactly is heli-coiling? And which option is better that or washers? And do I need the pedestal piece with the groove in it on there or no? Also could the studs on the 2.8 be removed and simply put the whole rocker arm assembly into the threads or no? And if you have some pictures of all of this especially taking the rocker stud out of the roller one that would help me a little...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

You've never heard of rethreading to stock threads using a threaded insert, aka a Heli-Coil?

If you wanted to use the rockers the way they are, you would remove the studs (because you can't put the bolts in a hole that has a stud in it, right?) and use washers for proper spacing between the head and the pedestals.

No pics of removing the bolts, sorry. Just push the bolts out until they won't go any more and start turning them with a ratchet to get the bushing or whatever that little ball-like thing is out that's holding the bolt in the pedestal.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Heard of it yes, know exactly how it works not so much, for that matter how do you remove the studs from the heads, they don't look removable..though If they are I'm sure I can have that done at the shop they're at during the rebuild. I gather from what you said that I would need the pedestal still, but won't it want to rotate around the stud with just a washer under it? and for that matter what size washer is needed, do you know? Lot of questions I know, but I want to do this the right way,lol...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

The studs have a nut at the bottom that also holds the pushrod guide plates in place. The pedestals won't turn as long as the rockers are on the pushrods, because the pedestals fit into the bottom of the roller assembly (they're curved at the rocker end, if you notice) and won't move. It might be a good idea to use lock washers instead of regular flat ones if you're worried about it. Search 60* for "3x00 rocker iron head" or something of that nature.

Actually, I'll see if I can dig it up for you... It might actually be under "iron head"

:edit: Here: http://www.60degreev6.com/forum/f96/...n-heads-t45991 Click on the pic in the bottom post.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Alright, I think I understand what you mean then, I basically use the washer as a shim to push the pedestal groove up into the rocker fulcrum so it's always on it, and I wondered if pushrods would keep it in line since the iron heads aren't splayed valves, alright, well this is all great news, cause I realized oh hey I can put my 1.6 rollers on the iron heads and still get some performance out of all this!! Then compared things and though oh crap, this will never work...lol
Ok though, so just to be clear on the process, This is one of the ways that will work:
1.Remove studs from the 2.8 iron heads, now will the guide plates still be on there if I do this, and or do they need to be and something special done to retain them?
2. Simply pull all my roller rockers off my 3400 heads, stud and pedestal still attached, and just screw them down into the bosses on the 2.8 heads where the old 2.8 rocker studs were?
3. Use a washer between pedestals and pushrod guide plates to shim pedestal to roller fulcrum?

Project 3.4 Camaro

Oh, also I've heard this creates clearance issues with the valve covers, is that true or false? And I don't suppose you know how much of a difference the 1.6 rockers will make in valve lift? And any idea where I can find a set of cheap pushrods, or what chemical will effectively remove rust from the ones I have? I was thinking rust remover, rust repair would make the surfaces non flat I imagine, which I don't want.

AM91Camaro_RS

as far as rust....hit them with a wire wheel, clean them in the parts washer, make sure the center hole is clear, then use them. they'll be fine unless they are rusted to the point of falling apart. to figure valve lift with a 1.6 rocker instead of 1.5...look at your advertised valve lift (it is typically shown with 1.5 rockers unless it specifies) divide by 1.5 then multiply that number by 1.6. say .484 valve lift with 1.5s = .323 (lobe lift) x 1.6 = .516

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

I think you would have to find Fiero valve covers, IIRC, for more clearance if needed. If you click on the link I posted to 60*, you'll see a pic of how the guy did it, and you can ask him what valve covers he is running.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Hey maverick, that post mentioned using beehive springs from the 3x00 heads as well, if I did that, camshaft, some porting on heads and manifolds, full exhaust, ram air intake and what not to give it some flow, do you thinkg I could raise the redline a little bit?

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Nope. The redline is what the cam is rated at, 6500, I think. Besides, I wouldn't do anything like raising the top end engine speed limit without going through the engine thoroughly and replacing EVERY bearing, going with a double roller timing chain, etc. to beef up the induction system and keep decent oil pressure.

Project 3.4 Camaro

If I do it, I'm going to do a new cam and timing chain, not going to touch the bottom end though, and stock cam is rated at 6500 rpm redline o.O Wth is it's powerband??? Maybe that's why these engines make less power than it seems they should...If you have the rest of the cam specs, like lobe seperation, and intake/exhaust duration and valve lift at .050" I was trying to find all that the other day...

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Cam is: .394 intake lift with 196 duration, .410 exhaust lift with 203 duration on 107* lobe separation (IIRC, couldn't find a number on this, could be 109).

Look here: http://www.lunghd.com/Downloads_and_Links/V6_Parts.pdf Ours is the 14031378 cam.

AM91Camaro_RS

Even with a big cam, unless you do some serious work on the intake manifold and throttle body, you won't be able to flow enough air for more RPMs to be beneficial.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Project89 is going to port the intake manifolds and heads for me, throttle body doesn't concern me, that's easy to replace and I can do that anytime I want down the road.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Even ported, don't the iron heads just stop flowing around 5K or something and choke the engine? I think their limit is 4200 or something left alone, right?

Project 3.4 Camaro

If they're heavily ported, like best possible, they flow ALMOST as much as stock 3400 heads. What I'm more concerned about is valve float, think the 3400 beehive springs can keep those valves up at 6k redline, maybe 6.5k?

Project 3.4 Camaro

And port's aren't everything either, the ram air intake, full catback exhaust with Y-pipe and headers will help it breathe as well, as well the cam and 1.6 rockers.

AM91Camaro_RS

You can get "z28" springs for a small block chevy. they're good to, I think, .550" lift. The beehive springs would work but the z28 springs are a cheaper option. Plus, you can re-use your spring retainers...instead of getting smaller ones with beehive springs. That's (z28 springs) what I had on my car.

Project 3.4 Camaro

I already have beehive springs though,lol.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

No you can't use them as is, the rocker bodies will rub. You have to grind down adjacent rockers to make them fit. I was going to try this a few years ago and decided not to because I would've had to grind off more of the rocker than I wanted. You can get stamped 1.6 rockers from earlier 3x00 motors too. The beehive-style springs are a good way to bring the redline up a bit- particularly if you're using a power adder and you need to spin it a little higher. But there aren't any gains to spinning an otherwise stock motor higher without it. I've taken mine up to 6k and not much other than vavlefloat is happening. In my datalogs airflow stalls around 4500rpm (heads max) and holds there 'till about 5200-5500 rpm where valvefloat kills the game and everything drops off.

Oh, and double check how much lift you're going to have against the coil bind of those springs. I don't think they can handle much more than .5" lift.

AM91Camaro_RS

which beehive springs do you have? stock ones off of some alum heads? you need to find out the pressures on them to make sure they'll be beneficial. chances are that your stock springs on the 2.8 are worn, anyway.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Stock 3400s yeah.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

what's the install height on iron heads?


on a 3400 head (1.7") the stock springs are good for about .460 lift and start floating around 6K. Thy may be better than gen1 springs but not by much.

Gen3 guys usually upgrade to the LS1's for a stock engine, LS6 yellows for .500 lift and under, Comp 26986 or 26915's for .5 lift and above.

project89

iTrader: (1)

its not so much the heads that limit the rom range as it is the intake manifold, we all know that it has a long runner/small plenum volume well thats not the best thing for high rpms at all.

the heads im doing for him will be just about the same as whats on my car except setup for an na application
cam is going to be a 260ish grind
along with the ported manifold set

which by itself will see nice gains specially in the mid and upper ranges but yes power will still fall off like it does stock because of the intake just nowere near as bad and it will pull alot higher then stock

ideally with the setup he is going with something like the pizza box intake with a larger plenum and shortened runner would work wonders with the combination but what hes doing will run dam good for what he has for now until he gets into the engine a lil bit more

Project 3.4 Camaro

I saw a really badass solution to that just yesterday too, but don't remember where it was....anyway, someone basically cut the runners, and took the plenum off of a v8 tpi setup I think, and they welded that to the runners. Actually purple82ta, didn't you post that picture??

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

i saw that a long time ago, i think a guy did it in a Blazer.


Probably not ideal but i'm sure he did it for the cool factor. Typically you want your plenum volume to be half of your engine displacement. Ontop of that you should have even distribution to all 6 ports which is something that is even harder to do under a stock hood.

Project 3.4 Camaro

Well, I saw a picture of it just the other day,lol, but yeah it did look sweet, but I'm sure I can think of something to improve it, and I imagine ours are pretty even if not even distribution. Not going to lie though I always kind of thought the 3rd gen v6s had unique looking intake manifolds, and they're great for torque too. Just tend to fall flat on their face at 4.5-5.5k, but with porting I think they'll do the job, I plan to redline at 6.5k with the setup I'm doing, but I'll probably inch it up 500 rpms at a time.

project89

iTrader: (1)

mine looks better and does a better job i think

Project 3.4 Camaro

Ah that's it, and yeah his probably has horribly touchy throttle response, could probably do something like that $700 fiero intake, like cut the runners and weld in a decent sized metal pipe.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

That Fiero "truleo" intake is one of the worst designed pieces i've seen on an engine.


Here is a neat one..




you are still limited by the small runners though.


Someone needs to try drilling and welding injector bungs into one of the Edelbrock carb intakes, then use a throttle body elbow to convert it over. Might be a fun combo.

project89

iTrader: (1)

see those 2 intakes dont resolve the long runner/bend issue,

the tpi upper one adds a slight amount of volume and the one puple ta posted has a decent amount of volume but the runners suck

the one i did elimiantes 3-4 inches of runner and cuts that nasty bend exactly in half