Hi,

My teenage son's 1985 Firebird 2.8 L V6 Fuel Injected engine has major issues (load knocking, won't turn over without boost). A fellow down the street offered us his 1982 or 83 (not sure) 2.8 L V6 Firebird carb engine. Can the top sections be swapped so I can make the carb engine into a fuel injected engine?

Thanks!

Joe
Newbie with Help from Friends

 

Welcome aboard thirdgen.org.

I moved this to the V6 forum, where you're more likely to get a usable response.

I believe the answer is, "Yes, but you might want to look for a 3.1 or 3.4 longblock instead." If the engine down the street is free, that's one thing, but the 3.1's and 3.4's were of better design.

 

Thread title is a tad ambiguous/confusing...but putting a carbed 2.8 into a car that had a 2.8 mpfi while retaining the MPFI setup is relatively easy, just keep stock ECM and wiring harness and swap over all the intake manifolds from the MPFI car, the lower intakes might actually be identical but I am not 100% sure of it.

Also what the guy above me said, if you care at all about performance and are going to the trouble of an engine swap you might as well upgrade to a 3.1 or 3.4 from an F-body while you're at it, not anymore work than putting another 2.8 in, nor would it be more expensive. Snagged myself a complete 3.4 for $200, accessories and all, even the torque converter, depending on mileage a rebuild might be worthwhile, at least put in some new gaskets and clean everything up imo, less its low mileage.

 

Problem with what you're trying to do is that you're losing a bunch of things. Downgrading, actually. In 85, the 2.8 got bigger main bearings and bigger intake valves. The early engines were easier to break due to the smaller mains, and made less power due to the smaller valves. If it's free, or dirt cheap, go for it. If not, I'd look at going newer.

 

Thank you all for your comments! You have given us enough confidence to give it a whirl; and yes, the engine down the street is free, and my son is 16 without a lot of cash, so it makes sense at this point to practice engine swapping with the older 2.8. A friend with experience has offered his garage and services, so I'm looking forward to a good dad-son bonding experience. Thanks again!

Joe

PS: We will need new intake manifold gaskets; anything else suggested to replace while we have it apart? One friend suggested looking at the timing chain.

 

If you think you can handle it, replace ALL of the gaskets you can while the engine is out. Oil pan, head, intake, timing cover and water pump. Also, the 83 engine may have a 2-piece rear main seal. It's a good idea to replace this as well as the rear cam cover seal while the engine is out. You don't want to get the engine in the car and find out the oil pan gasket needs to be replaced...

Also, if you do the head gaskets, swap over the cylinder heads as well. Unless one of the existing (85 engine) heads is bad, of course.

Oh, and definitely do the timing chain and also the water pump.

 

Thanks Maverick; will do!

The Best.

Joe

PS: We are not too far from you; in Clarence.

 

Also, I hate to say it because I hate it so much, but pick up a Haynes repair manual... If nothing else, it will give you a basic walkthrough and torque specs on repairs. Just don't expect much out of the troubleshooting part or the wiring diagrams.

Oh, and if you want it, I have a used reman distributor I'll no longer be using (going hybrid with coil packs )... This is the one with the upgraded pickup coil in it that the magnet doesn't crack and break like the GM unit.

 

Thanks again for the info and thank you for the distributor offer! I'll make sure my profile allows you to contact me with your address. I picked up a Firebird Chilton's manual on ebay, so we are good with the specs.

Here is my shopping list so far:
Oil
Oil Filter
Plugs and Wires
Valve Cover Gasket
Water Pump Gasket
Timing Cover Gasket
Intake Manifold Gasket
Oil Pan Gasket
Gasket RTV
Antifreeze
Thermostat

What did I miss??

Thanks all!

Joe

 

I would go ahead and swap the heads over from the '85 and also the cam is a better cam for the injected engine . You will already be that far into the engine you might as well do all you can .

 

FelPro's MS93020 intake gasket set comes with all of the intake gaskets and the valve cover gaskets. You'll also want to pick up a set of GP Sorenson 800-9220 fuel injector o-rings. You forgot to put the water pump on your list... It's $15 or so and you won't get stuck doing it later. Same for the head gaskets. And the rear main seal.

As 89 said, you'd want to swap the cam over as well. However, with the old engine having unknown damage, you may want a cam kit if you can afford one due to the unknown condition of the cam in the 85's engine.

I'd also pick up some vacuum hose just in case some of the hard lines break and/or the flexible ones are dry rotting.

As for what else you're missing, transmission fluid and filter with pan gasket, rear end oil, PCV valve, distributor cap and rotor, probably new belts if the old ones are shot, and if the car has been sitting long enough, new front brake pads and rotors (if you're looking to make the car road worthy ASAP).

 

Thanks for the info Gents!
OK, I'll relay your info to my not so newbie friend is is greatly helping this project along. Today we picked up the engine from the fellow down the road (very kind and generous) and dragged my friend's engine stand down from his garage attic, and purchased some bolts for mounting the engine on the stand. Tommorrow I'll slowly drive the knocking vehicle over to his garage. My son worked today and missed the fun. The journey has started ;-)

The Best,

Joe

 

Like Maverick said inspect the cam before you swap or get another one as yours could be bad . I don't know what sound the engine in the car is making but I had a Ford Ranger with the 2.3 and the #1 exhaust finger came out from under the cam and it sounded like it was ready to blow and had little power and I popped the finger back in and it ran like a top and had plenty of power . What I am getting at is if your cam is wore out on one or two lobes it could cause the knocking sound . A mechinics scope or a length of fuel line to your ear could help determin the origion of the noise .

 

Thanks 89 Bird! We will check those items out; my mechanic seems to think it is a bent rod. I'll keep you all posted on our findings.

The Best,

Joe

PS: sounds a lot like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bnlKOflgwA

 

That's just how my 2.3 Ford sounded so do check that cam before swapping . Let us know how it all turns out .

 

Hi all,

We started taking the carb engine apart and it looks pretty good. One thing my friend noted was a bit of play in the timing chain. It appears to have about 3/8 inch of play at the midpoint. Should it be replaced? What is normal?

Thanks again!

Joe

 

Go ahead and replace it for insurance down the road . Also check the crank in that carbed engine those cranks are bad about breaking if things aren't right .

 

I really like my Haynes manual- but like Maverick said, for troubleshooting and wiring I use my http://www.helminc.com manual (official GM Shop/Service manual). Its best to own both. Depending on my mood, sometimes I use both at the same time! Example = pull the engine with the Haynes, rebuild it with the Helms, put it back in with the Haynes.

But the Haynes/Chiltons should give enough info though to cover what you're doing.

If the motor's been sitting for a long time, make sure (a) that it turns with a breaker bar and (b) you might want to remove the oil pan to check for sludge... your friend might already be doing that with you guys though. Didn't the 82-83's use a two piece seal for the rear of the crank? (I can't remember) That was the only rear seal that you could change out with the engine still in the car.

One extra tip on your conversion; check the rear (next to the firewall) outer corner of the passenger head. Multiport had a coolant temperature sensor there. Carb'd could have a pipe plug (you'll have to remove it, you can file down an old bolt as a tool). And of course if you are swapping the heads, you don't have to worry about this part- but make sure your '85 heads and the '82 deck isn't warped... don't want to blow a head gasket after all that work...

OH! And one more tip if you swap heads- the head bolts can stretch! Its best to buy a new set, but if you can't, you can at least check the head bolts. They should thread back into the engine easily. If any one of them catches, or is hard to turn, the bolt is trash and shouldn't be reused. If you re-use a stretched bolt, you can rip the threads out of the block. I can't find the original guy that happened to (82T/A) but here's when I ran into the same problem, helping a friend with his Camaro: https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/60961-heads.html

 

I have a haynes and honestly...imo it's really only good for things that have to be done an exact way, like valve lash, or cam install. I see a lot of things in it that are just plain stupid and or wrong...for example it says to pull the trans and engine as one...what a joke, way more work than necessary, but it seems to think the trans bellhousing bolts are inaccessible(not even close to being true)

 

Glad to see someone agrees with me (use the Haynes for some things, use Helms/GM Manual for advanced)! I hear so many people badmouth the Haynes manual- but really it was never meant to be an "advanced" manual. How could it be for only $15? That's what the official GM manual's for.

 

You guys are awesome! I ordered the timing chain and sprockets from Napa; they should be in Sat morning ;-) We will be back at it about 9 AM Sat.
Yes, we checked the oil pan for sludge and removed the cam shaft from the 83; and checked one of the bearings for wear. All in all the free engine looks great. I'll print out what you guys noted and go over it with my engine swapping buddy. Thanks again!

Joe

PS: what grade/type oil should I pick up??? And what about the oil filter? The one cross referenced looked really small.

 

I don't know why people want to do so much extra work, when it's likely not needed or going to be noticed in the end result.

If it was me doing this, I would leave the engine as together as I could, not because I'm afraid of taking and engine apart, since that's far from the truth, I've built several engines myself, but because this is simply and exercise in getting this car running. I highly doubt the 16 year old driver is going to be able to feel the difference between the 1.65" and the 1.7" intake valves, or the 1.4 and 1.5" exhaust valves. He certainly won't be able to feel any difference in the camshaft.

The most I would do, is replace any obviously leaking gaskets, install a new timing chain, if it seemed like it had play, which can be checked without even taking the engine apart.

Just swap the parts that are different between the two, to get it installed and running in the recipient vehicle, intake, exhaust manifolds are likely different, maybe front cover and water pump/front driven accesories. I don't remember when the F-body changed the front drive accessories, in the S-series it was '86, when the S-series also switched to EFI.

Then after swapping those parts, a simple tune up will help the most, plugs, wires, fuel pump, air filter, etc.

K.I.S.S.

 

Well, the valves aren't worth fretting over, but personally I would shy away from an early year block because the cranks were known to fail, and not sure what you mean by S series, but Camaro v6s got mpfi starting in 85. Not sure on diff accessories, but I think, the 2.8s are all v belts, and I think the 3.1s got serpentine, not positive on that though.

 

S-series means the S-10,S-15, etc trucks.

Drive accessories changed a few times: 1982-84 had 3 belts, all were "v-belt" style (no ribs). 1985-86 2.8 used 3 belts but changed the alternator one to a ribbed style. 1987-1989 2.8 and 1990-1992 3.1 had single serpentine with tensioner.

For the oil filter question, use the larger PF-52 (holds extra 1/2 qt oil)- look up a filter for a 1988 Camaro 2.8, it will fit. You see a smaller one because two different oil filters were spec'd through the years. PF47 was spec'd for pre-88. PF-52 (old PF-51 superceded b/c of redesigned anti-drainback valve) was spec'd 88-up. Both fit so use the larger one (I have for, what, +16 years) so you get more filter medium to keep your oil cleaner. (Fun fact = the 82-85 iron duke 2.5's used the smaller PF47 filter.)

Side note; I do agree about not swapping heads and/or cam (which is why I mentioned the pipe-plug that will have to be removed from a carb'd engine's passenger side head). If the priority was just to get the car running, leave the donor engine "untouched" as much as possible besides . Besides you wouldn't want the extra power from a head/cam swap blowing up the weaker main (although I doubt this will happen unless your son really squeezes the motor for all its worth).

Oh and for the oil question; use whatever brand caters to your liking, whatever you used before will be fine.

 

Thanks again all!! We have the original engine out and the gift engine down to the short block (heads and oil pan were removed for inspection; engine looks clean, not much wear on the main bearings). Toughest job was getting the bell housing/motor bolts out; learned from another friend to use a 3 foot extension and remove from the bottom of the car.
Hopefully will get a lot done this "labor" day ;-)

The Best,

Joe

 

Hello All,

Made good progress today; pulled the old engine apart, fairly worn. Main knocking issue was No. 6 piston rod due to spun bearing. Question on the timing gear marks, for the 2.8 engine, see http://www.autozone.com/autozone/rep...00c1528008e4d8

Note that the photo shows the marks both at 12 o'clock with No. 1 piston at TDC; words say this: Place the #1 piston at T.D.C with the marks on the camshaft sprocket at 6 O'clock and the crankshaft sprocket at 12 o'clock.

Which is correct?

Please verify location of No. 1 piston.

Thanks!

Joe

 

Both are correct.

The cam spins at half engine RPM, so if you install it with the cam sprocket at 6 o'clock, then turn the engine one full rotation, you will now see the cam sprocket at 12 o'clock.

Go with which ever way you feel comfortable with.

 

Number 1 is always the closest cylinder to the front of the engine (timing cover)- which on the 2.8/3.1/3.4 is front passenger side. All other engines in the world (ok well not all, "most") have front driver's side as #1.

 

Thanks Guys!

One of the toughest jobs was removing the old gasket material from the water pump; hard as a rock. Used a putty knife, but had to be careful not to gouge the aluminum. Slowly putting things back together ;-)

A couple bolts broke off in the exhaust manifolds, even after heating and carefully turning. May use Napa to extract to save a little time.

Joe

 

Yeah that water pump gasket is a real pain. Whenever I snapped a manifold bolt/stud, they always came out OK with vice-grips (after the manifold was removed)- unless, did you snap the studs that connect the y-pipe to the manifold? Exhaust bolt specs are here (at the end): https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/1...-manifold.html

 

Thanks TomP! Yes, it was the bolts that snapped; the NAPA machine shop got them out.

My buddys been on vacation so the engine has been on pause. Today I was working on the door locks; the C clip holding the L shaped bar to the lock cylinder arm was missing. What a pain to get that puppy back in! If only I had micro hands.

Does anyone know what the spring thing is under the outside door handle? It is attached on one end only (both door handles) and flops around. I'm tempted to remove it completely but I thought I would check with the seasoned car restorers first ;-)

Thanks!


Joe

 

PS: Yes, I did get replacement studs for the exhaust manifold from NAPA as well.

Thanks for the link!

 

The spring is to hold the handle down and keep it from flopping around if it is loose the handle will jiggle around and not be tight . The handles are easy to replace with new ones I got a set of chrome ones for my womans 84 Bird from AM Auto Parts on Ebay for $24.95 with free shipping IIRC . Advance wants nearly that much for one . They are of great quality and IIRC had the same numbers on them as the originals .

 

Yup that's what the spring's for. It's attached to the handle at one side and is supposed to be attached to the handle's base at the other side. Problem is b/c the handle assembly is "pot metal" (whatever they could melt in the pot- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_metal) it gets brittle and snaps. If you look under the handle, on the door part (base) of the handle, you'll probably see a little tab snapped off. But since you can't fix pot metal, like '89 said, the whole handle assembly has to be replaced.

I always had plans to change those stock "GM-used-them-on-everything-in-the-80's" handles out for "flush" ones like from a (gasp) Honda Civic or Saturn... one day I'll do it...

 

Hi All!

Just wanted to let you know the Bird is back thanks to your help and lots of help from my friend! The issue with the original engine was a spun bearing. Got the short block of the carbed engine swapped with the top half of the fuel injected engine; with your advice: new water pump, gaskets, timing chain, thermostat, o rings, etc, etc. Did not use the original camshaft; looked a bit nasty. Thanks again for all your help!
A few remaining questions:
1. Cylinder 2 has spark (with the plug removed), but does not seem to be working well. If the wire is removed the engine it seems to run the same. Maybe a fuel injector? Do they need to be replaced in sets? Source? Method of testing?
2. Where can I get those thin hoses that go from the engine to the canister up front? They seem to be a type of molded assembly, not using normal clamps. They collapse with the engine running.
3. The compressor belt seems to oscillate when the clutch engages; have tried tightening and loosening; makes a lot of noise when it flutters. Ideas?
4. The inside passenger compartment heater temp is not spectacular; I replaced the thermostat today with the hottest I could get, 195 F. Does not seem as warm as it should be.


Thanks again!

The Best,

Joe

PS: Per TomP:
"Side note; I do agree about not swapping heads and/or cam (which is why I mentioned the pipe-plug that will have to be removed from a carb'd engine's passenger side head). If the priority was just to get the car running, leave the donor engine "untouched" as much as possible besides . Besides you wouldn't want the extra power from a head/cam swap blowing up the weaker main (although I doubt this will happen unless your son really squeezes the motor for all its worth)."

Lots of wisdom from you Tom. That pipe-plug was a bear to get out; ended up grinding down a socket extension to make a tool that would fit (metric?)