ok i still can't get it to start. it is trying but it is not working yet. when i turn the key you here it try but the engine just doesn't kick in.

the fuses are good, replaced the sparks and wires, new fuel pump new fuel filter. got pressure in my lines now. fixed the wires to the relays and behind my dash, engine does manually turn and i got fresh oil. battery is charged and working. i routed my vacuum lines back and they seem good now.

i don't think i flooded the engine. it just wont start. every time i turn the key it sounds as if it would start at any moment though. i just can't figure it out.

please give me a place to check and i'll check it. and if that doesn't work we'll move on to the next place. i know i am close i just am not sure what to look at next.


this should be my last thread i'll use till i get my car running. i know i did a few others out there and i looked though them to see if i could just continue one of them but they didn't seem to fit right. so this will be my "lets get this damn thing started" thread.

thanks guys for helping my this far lets see if we can get it back on the road.

i was told when i got the car that it was a 1987 but when i ran the vin # i found out it is an 1988.
so we have a 1988 pontiac firebird 2.8 v6 automatic. standard base model. i don't think it ever had cruise control. i also can not find a vacuum ball anywhere. i think it was removed sometime.

 

Have you tried to hold the gas pedal down while cranking? When you do that, it goes into a clear flood mode.
Check your fuel pressure & leak down rate.
Check all grounds.
Check the coolant temp sensor, it changes resistance at different temp.
Ohms the injectors.
Get a noid light to see if injectors are getting a pulse.
Clean the maf sensor.

 

+1 on Gas pedal while cranking, floored. I wasted ~$80 on a tow over this (!) and when i tried it the next day.. i did that. and it started. Wow.

And dont feel too too bad about the # of threads. Im backing down my new thread count.

 

Most likely the timing is off, try adjusting the dizzy first, then try, if you don't have a timing light, just keep turning the cap a little each direction, if that doesn't change anything than I would suggest spraying some starter fluid down the air intake and see if that gets it going for a second, also try the gas thing, mine won't start unless I blip the throttle ever since I put in a new fuel pump.
Last but not least, is the SES light on?

 

i understand the gas pedal thing but how would i do the other stuff? i am a novice i learn fast but i need everything really dumbed down the first time. i'll try the gas pedal thing once i get a car back at the house that i can use to jump my car. my battery is dead.

what is the dizzy? no i don't have have a timing light, what cap should i turn. that is starter fluid in the front of the throttle body? how do you blip the throttle and what is the SES light.

again sorry but i am rather stupid. once i do things i can do them forever but the first time doing it i have no clue. i am still learning the car and forum lingo. please dumb everything down and i'll see what i can do. again thank you i will be trying everything i can.

 

Dizzy is slang for distributor.
To figure out some of these problems you'll need some diagnostic tools.
fuel pressure tester (for GMs) for efi no carbs.
spark tester
noid light
digital volt ohm meter
test light
its nice to have a timing light & service manual too.

 

I wouldn't go out and buy all those diagnostic tools, unless you have the cash to spare, try the simple stuff first....
Guy above me answered what a dizzy is already, the cap I am referring to is the one the spark plug wires plug into, the wires go from the spark plugs to the distributor cap, the center one goes to the ignition coil, the rest are in order of cylinders, which when you are looking at the engine from the front, the left cylinder bank is odd numbers, 1, 3, 5 and the right cylinder bank is even #s, 2, 4, 6, you need to either loosen the dizzy clamp at the base of it(pita to get to) or easier, keep moving the plug wires one terminal in a circle till it starts trying to fire then you know you are close, or if its already firing, try one terminal over one way, if that makes it worse, try going the other way.

By blipping the throttle I mean pressing the gas pedal for a split second, and not very far, SES light is simple....on your gauge panel there are numerous idiot lights and or gauges depending on what cluster you have, the lights tell you when things are wrong, the ses, aka service engine soon/check engine light usually means a sensor is bad, or vacuum leak or some such.

 

ok i recall the light being on. what would be a place to check the sensor or vacuum for leaks. where should i go from there. since the car never started and i had to redo my emission lines would that cause a problem or the fact my throttle body coolant lines are bypassed (it is sealed at the bottom so i can't un-bypass it.

 

Do you have a crank position sensor?
And no kid of anti-theft on this car, right?

I know you are trying HARD to get it to work, so im trying to take some oiof my idle time and throw out any and everything i can think of to help a fellow Third gen-ner. You have a "Crank no start" condition and it sounds as if you are getting fuel.. just no spark.

If you ruel out fuel, get to spark. I forget the third comonent, its compression and/or air.. its usually spark, could be fuel.. if it starts w starting fluid, its gas.. if it doesnt, back to spark..

Im rootin for you, bud. I am! I been there with the determination to make it work!

 

i dont think i have the crank position sensor where would i find it i'll go out and check. no i don't have an anti-theft.

i am going to buy a spark plug tester tomorrow or Tuesday. what would i need to buy and need to do to check compression.

i think it may be compression (through sensor) though i am sure spark would be the easiest thing to check first.

 

Ok if the ses light is on you need a scan tool that can tell you what code it is, which tells you the problem. I really doubt compression is the issue here, and it shouldn't be the first thing you check, once again, check the easy things first, and more often than not when an engine that SHOULD run does not, it is lacking fuel or spark.
Ses light being on, only means anything when the engine is actually running, it is supposed to be on when the electrical system, but not the engine is on.

As for the vauum hoses, their should be a diagram on the underside, on the driverside corner of your hood that shows the routing of all the vacuum hoses.

Throttle body coolant bypass has virtually no effect whatsoever unless you live on a friggin iceball, the idea is a very minuscule amount of power can be gained by the throttle body not getting heated by coolant(raises air intake temperature slightly, and colder air is denser, hence more power), which the only reason it does is so it doesn't freeze shut, which is extremely unlikely unless you live on pluto or the earth equivalents.

Now for the CPS(crank position sensor) no, it does not have one, no stock engined 3rd gen F-body does, only cars with distributor less ignitions have one, so unless someone swapped a different newer engine in, or converted it to DIS you don't have one, so its 99% likely you don't. Really no reason to convert to it unless you are swapping to fwd top end.

 

OK so tomorrow or Tuesday i jump the car and start while pressing the gas pedal. if that doesn't work I'll buy the spark tester and see if that works. if that doesn't work I'll return to try other things. be back later with the update.

 

Well, the thing is, cars with low compression are hard to start. I have had cars with blwon head gaskets that were hard to start, because the blown head gasket severely compromised compression. Then they ran ok as long as it was running if it didnt overheat though the gasket was indeed blown....

Compression test is as follows .. will post up the linky when i find it. .. ok, here it is http://www.car-techie.com/compression.php?003

 

ignition timing man, its probably ignition timing....try adjusting the ignition timing, it requires no tools or parts, is easy as hell, and most likely the culprit, can't stress enough how often its usually the simple things and that you should always start with the simple first.

 

OP... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7wcHkHHTEA

 

ok i set the timing by taking out the 1st spark plug turned the engine till i got pressure then i set it to 0. i then placed the distributor between the 1 and 6. i turned the engine and it didn't start. twisted the distributor a little and tryed again... and repeat. i didn't get it going yet. you think i need a new distributor? didn't get to testing the plugs yet, i got the spark plug tester (that goes between the plug and wire) i just didn't try to use it yet.

 

You can't rule out timing till you have gone full circle, I have NEVER had the car start right off the bat after setting the ignition timing without a light just going by TDC. You have to keep moving the plugs around till it starts to fire, then you know you're close...

 

Any engine requires 3 things to run... fuel, spark and compression. You have to take each one at a time and find out what works. My 1988 quit running. I sprayed some WD 40 in to the air inlet and it started a nd ran untill the WD 40 was gone . that told me it wasn't getting fuel and after pressure testing it, I replaced the fuel pump. another time it quit and WD 40 didn't work, because it needed a distributor module because there was no spark. just trying to offer some help.

 

ok i went full circle till the battery died again. i hit all 6 attempts. and i didn't get the car to start for a second. it turns ok, i see the belt and everything move. it just hadn't kicked on.

i just heard that if you leave the battery on the floor of the garage that it could kill the battery. is there any truth to that? because i went to autozone to charge my battery and they said it went bad and it only charged to 12.95 volts. i asked the shop next to my restaurant and they said that it was from me having it on my garage floor.

also, how do i test my distributor? can i take it out of the car and resistance check it or anything? i just have a feeling that it may be the distributor. i was going to use my spark tester but the car died at that time... the 2 seconds before the battery died i couldn't see the light turn on. then again it is hard to see it while i do this alone.

 

replace the distributor module, its under the cap & rotor and if bad, there will be no spark. or get a spark tester and make sure you are getting spark.

 

but is there a table test i can do?

 

By table test, I assume you mean test the module. no, but If you check to see that the coil is firing the plugs, and you find it's not, either the coil or module could be bad. If they are original 20 plus years ould, replace them to eliminate the trouble. I was on an interstate once, my car quit running, pulled off a spark wire, cranked it but no spark, replaced the module with a spare i happened to have and it fixed it. Later i replaced the coil too as these were both original with high miles.

 

and you mention you have a spark tester, but haven't mentioned if you have used it. I am trying to tell you that mechanics diagnose and repair cars by eliminating all the probable causes in a systematic way.

 

i tried to use it but it is hard to tell by myself. since i can't look at it while i am trying to start the car. also my battery died while i did try to start it with the plug tester on the 6th plug. though i wasn't able to see any light, it may have been because the battery just died at the same time.

that is why i was hoping to use a volt meter or something to test it while it was out of the car.

i did get my battery charged though i still have no one here.

 

ok i think this is the problem.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20...X/DSCF2788.jpg

i got a new pick-up coil. what is the thing right above it called?

Also
i checked with my spark plug tester. and i got no spark from my distributor. so i am getting closer on figuring this out.

::edit::

ok give me your best guess on this one please look at picture too.

i put my volt meter on the two conectors on the plug of the old pick-up and the new pick up. they throw the same resistance.

i then used the volt meter on the plug of the old pick-up and spun the distributor by hand. i got some voltage.

does that mean the pick up is good?

maybe it is my control module.

how would i know if it is my ignition coil?

i am not getting spark at all. the distributor rotor and cap looks good.

 

the red connector is the pick up coil plug and it plugs into that black thing which is the module. the pick up coil seldom goes bad, but the module and the coil can go bad and create the no spark condtion. i was hoping once you found you had no spark, that you would just replace the module (the distributor does not have to be removed) and then see if that was the problem. try replacing the module. if you get the Chilton's Camaro 1982 to 1992 manual, it clearly shows how to test the coil, but the module is hard to test. and when you replace the module, you get a little sislicone packett with it. smear the silicone on the bottom of the module. it's provided to keep the module from overheating during use.

 

when i say the pick up coil seldom goes bad, i mean like my 1988 still has the original pick up coil, but more than once i have replaced the igition coil and the module to repair the exact problem you are having which is no spark.

 

sorry it has been so long. i just moved my restaurant into it's new location. it look over 5 weeks worth of cleaning to get to my standards. and now i am spending 13-15 hours a day working for the last 2 weeks. so not much time on my end. though if anyone who lives in Florida that plans to go near the corner of 17-92 and 436 drop me a line and i will direct you my way.

i was finally able to replace the ICM and reinstall my distributor. i reset the timing and switched the plugs around in a circle till i had it go all the way around. it still doesn't start. still seems like no spark. what next?


i live just a 15 minute walk from my new restaurant. so if anyone would like to help me figure this out in person i can offer free food at my place. we are closed Sunday... thus the reson i had the time to work on my car today.

 

Turn the engine over by using the crank bolt, line up the timing mark to the zero on the timing tab. Pull the distr. cap, the rotor should be pointing at #1 or #4 cap tower. You might have to make sure #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke by placing your finger over the spark plug hole while turning the crank. You'll feel pressure building up. Might be 180(when pointing at #4 tower) out or worse.

 

i still can't figure it out.

Good battery, check.
new ignition module, check.
new distributor cap and rotor, check.
new ignition coil, check.
and reset the timing.

now what.
is there anyone in Florida that would have time to help me look at this thing? i live near the corner of 17-92 and 436.

or atleast anyone have a next step for me. i have a small spark light i got from harbor freight the kind that connects between the plug and the wire. i had my dad watch and he didn't see the light flicker. what would keep the car from sparking at this point. the starter is good, i can hear the car trying, it just doesn't seem like it is getting a spark. it doesn't even putter. i know i am getting fuel i smelled it through the spark hole when i was resetting the timing.

send me the next step and i'll try it out. thank you.

 

What part of Florida? I'm in Jacksonville, did you check for power at the coil?

 

i am in fern park/casselberry area.

how do you check for that?

 

i am still trying to figure this out. does anyone have any ideas? i am stuck at the moment. anything for me to check and how do i check it?

 

I haven't had to check for power at the coil on my car but I would imagine you would probe the wires that come out of the harness to the multi meter and have someone try to crank it to see if you get power at the wire. Check the plug at the ecm and see if maybe there is a wire that came out of place and not getting any contact, had this happen in my fiero when I first got it, that thing was a mess when I got it

 

i'll be sure to try this on Sunday when i get free time. if you think of anything else for me to try feel free to tell me. i only get Sundays to have any ounce of free time so i'd like to try as much as possible.