With my 305 getting tired out, I'm looking into going 6. I want to have something that would be a great cross country car. I already have a V8 racecar, so please keep the "just swap a 350" comment of this post. (not that anyone should ever mention that on this forem)

What I keep stirring around in my head is a 6 cylinder, stick shift car. As time progesses, putting on a supercharger(or turbo if I start making some major bank). I'm looking to have around 225-250 hp on motor.(Seeing that my 305 came with only 190hp stock it should be more than enough!)

Anyway, looking around the first one that came to mind was a vortec 4.3 from a newer Blazer. From what I have already researched(alot thanks to this board of coarse!!) was that this is the same exact thing as a 350 block with the front 2 cylinders chopped of. Same bolt patten means that I could slap a T56 or tremec to the back with not to many problems. I even have seen some performance cams for this motor in the Summit catalog.

Problem is that I hate the fact that the 2 front exhaust valves are right next to each other. At least GM took that into consideration with the new LS1 and LS6.
Another point is that is still a cast iron block.

That brings up the 3.4. I could rip one out of a RS and snag the T-5 for now. Maybe later spend the cash to have a custom bellhousing made to use the tremec or t56. If motor mounts are an issue, I would just use motor plates therefor having the ability to mush to motor as close to the back of the car as possible. Plus, I heard on the board that a 3.4 SC is not to far off in the distance. 300 hp should not be hard at all to obtain with that.

Plus I can convert my TPI nitrous kit to whatever I go with. Um, which ones have forged pistons?!?

Well, that's all for now. What can you expect. It is Friday, so I don't feel like working at all. Plus I just got out of another Power Systems Test, and my brain is hurtin as usual. I really interested to hear some sound comments.

Thanks in advance!
Mike

------------------
Michael Graeber

My Garage

1)83 Z-28 T-Top: Full cage, 9" w/ lad.bars, Midwest Engine Tech 406sbc,Strip Dominator, Demon Carb, Phase VI Chevy Bowtie heads, .630" Crower roller set-up, 1 3/4 coated Hookers 3" true dual exhaust th400, fuel cell & still not running

2)89 Formula WS-6 305 TPI Auto For the road: minor motor, more suspension stuff. MODS

 

I'm real happy with the 1995 3.4 I slipped under my hood.
Don't bother me that I only have an automatic.
I have a stick in my 1967 Camaro.
SC?
Would like it, but, I can get into my other V-8 cars for real power.
I mean, this 1985 Firebird car is great as is, for the ways I use it and the around town fun factor and passing emission/gas stations easy.

------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

Well for the most buildable power house is the 4.3....just because everything from a V8 will bolt into the 4.3 except the obvious crank and cam....Right now I am doing some research into building a high psi turbo 4.3 and the power potential is definately there... I am looking into getting at least 500 at 18-20 psi....and when in the city you can turn the boost down to gas freindly levels to get upper 20's MPG....

 

I would look into either a 3.8, or definately the 4.3. This way you can keep the same bolt pattern as the tranny you have now, in case you ever decide to "drop in a 350" or 383, 400, 454, whatever....

4.3's are kick @$$ motors.

 

ya they are...i can tell you right now that it PULLS my blazer...i couldnt even begin to imagine what it would do to a little lighter car. i think im starting to break the tranny tho and its onnly 2 years old .

now that i brought it up, does anyone if the auto slips a tad bit every once in awhile, or if you stop, put from drive to reverse, and give it 1/4 throttle and Michelins (sp?) tires on a 1998 blazer spin for the whole time the gas is down is a sign of tranny needing to be replaced? dad said its starting to go and if it dies no camaro 4 me . anyone wnana give me some good news

 

Cool Stuff. Thanks guys. Rustang, elaborate on your tranny problem a bit more. You go from reverse to drive and just give a 1/4 throttle and the tires spin? If the tires didn't spin, and the car did not move I would say ya have problems. Are your tires balded out?

Comment on the 3.8. I hear that you would need a TTA donor car to make it work. Plus, would a V-8 tranny work with it? Then there is the issue with the heads. I heard that you have to use them off an old Cierra or Buick Centry to make it work in our cars.

Comments on the 3.4. Is it an aluminum block? What kind of tranny are you running Ked85? Do you know what kind of gas milage you are getting? Ever run it at the track. What gear ya got in it. Give me some details if ya can.

Check this out. I did a search for aftermarket vortec 4.3 and got to whipple SC's page. Whipple makes a SC for 88-95 4.3's.

 

no tires have prolly 65% life left till there bald i guess. it shifts real hard, sometimes if misses second and goes to third and u gotta give it more gas to get the RPMs up, thats only every once in awhile tho, usually it just shifts real hard. its a great engine, the car works perfect except the tranny slips and misses gear sometimes. about the tire spin, it happened last nite, thats why i brought it up. i was at Burger king picking up a friend in the rents blazer, and stoped by the door. i looked to my left and there was a new prelude with some teens in it waiting to back out, so i put it in reverse, gave it prolly 1/4 gas and the tires spun like they were burning out, but it still backed up alittle. then while it was going back and tires were spinning, i let off the gas and hit the brake, prolly like 1/2 cause there was a civic parking behind me that had just gun it down the other side wall passed the drive through to get into a parking spot, and i felt the abs kick in, but the wheels just keep goin for another like 5 seconds. other then shifting hard, and sometimes slipping gears there isnt really any problems. hope this helps.

thx for anyone who can help, or tryed, trys or reads

 

at the track yet, no
at the stop lights/signs, YES!!
i use the 700r4.
need a shift kit
simple detailed swap
i paid 800 for 40k engine
worth every bit of effort
the thing stuns people!

------------------
Chat Soon,
KED85
Karl
1985 Firebird 2.8 to 3.4 swap project for Smog Happy LA, CA

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Camaro_hunter_d:
[B] Well for the most buildable power house is the 4.3....just because everything from a V8 will bolt into the 4.3 except the obvious crank and cam.

I totaly agree with D!
A 4.3 will be the best choice it will almost bolt right in.
If you wanted to go with a smaller 6 a 3.4 is a good one but you need another trans or bellhousing depending on transmition type you have.

 

Not only would the 4.3 be the best powerhouse for your swap, it also bolts up to your trans saving you $. Here's the catch, 4.3's like the SBC index the mounts off the front of the engine. That means you would need to move your mounts back 4-3/8" from their current location. You can also get a cam ground to your specs from comp or crane for a few $ extra. Hmm, Now that you can have a 10:1 CR 4.3 with a 280* cam you need a manifold. With a 4.3 no prob. There are several different manifolds for a carb application and if you can burn a custom chip there are aftermarket TBI manifolds available too. Oh wait! Paxton makes a 'charger for the 4.3. There's more, 2.02 vales for the 4.3, those would help the extra 30 cubes breathe easier than the 3.8.

As for the stock power, my 4.3 drags my 4400lb 92 S-10 blazer 4X4 down the road (and up too.) at 70 mph and still gets >20 mpg with a 700R4.

If you can't tell I like the 4.3. I'm on my 3rd one and got over 150k on both of the first 2.

EDIT: There are two different 4.3's. You want the 93 and earlier, non-balance shaft.

[This message has been edited by 87RS402 (edited April 08, 2001).]

 

ive taken my 98 4 door 4wd heavy @$$ blazer with the 4.3 to 85 and still was running like 2,000-3,000 RPMS i think, so i know the newer ones are power houses. i also get like mid 20 MPG if u drive it right...which i dont .

anyone got any info on my tranny q for me?

 

If I could I would take a 3.8 and 5 speed out of a wrecked 98 or newer.... You have headers, cam, nitrous, pulleys, anything you want for that engine....

 

Will that 3.8 fit in our cars? I know a guy who's going to put an LT1 in his.....and he'll have a 3.8 left over

 

I think they will...if a 4.3 will fit (and I am sure they do) as they are just a modular 8 with the front bank cut. so the 3.8 should fit.

 

Kinda off this topic, but does anyone know of a 4.3 without TBI? The engine would pull a hell of a lot harder with a TPI setup or such.

Vman

------------------
1969 Camaro Sport Coupe
383, 700R4, leather, everything black but the lights

Previous owner of an 89 RS Camaro
2.8L V6, 700R4

 

CPI....Central Port Injection I believe it was called. It was in the 92 Blazers, and I don't know what else years.

 

Will the newer 3.8 work?? I'm not sure, but for 200hp/ 31 mpg I would attempt to try.
The real question is weather or not there is an aftermarket market, so to speak. Are there cams and blowers out there. If not blowers, I would hope to be able to get a custom cam and run a turbo on it.(Someday)

If not, the 4.3 sems to be the consensus. What problems would I be encountering if I went with a 93 or newer 4.3?

But take a look at this if you have not already. The 2002 Blazer, make that TrailBlazer comes with a 4.2 liter 6 that produces 270hp with a powerband from 1500-5800. By the way, it's not a V6 but a straight 6. Imagine one of those in a F-body.

 

For the 3.8 Camaro's/Birds you can get the following:

Supercharger
Nitrous
Cam
Rockers
About anything you can fora V8 now..... I hate to recommend this site, but check out v6fbody.com and see what they have done to their 3.8's....

 

You need special heads to get the 3.8 (and probably 4.3) to fit between the strut towers. The 4.3's a truck engine, so you'd have to locate the correct cam to make it work in the RPM range a street car would use... would a cam from a street 3.8 work in a truck 4.3?


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Tom, the 4.3 is exactly the same as a 350, with 2 cylinders cut off. Pistons, rods, valves, rockers, pushrods, etc, etc.. are interchangeable. No other modificatins would be needed to to put one in place of a SBC other than moving the mounts back 4-3/8".

No, the 3.8 and the 4.3 are completely different.

Graeb, for ease of swap the carb 4.3's would be the best. In 92 the 4.3 H.O. became available as an option in the blazers and standard in the bravada. In 94 the H.O. became standard in everything. The H.O. is Central Port Injected (CPI) with an internal balance shaft. It is different than the SBC in that respect. I don't know about the interchangability of those. You can get any cam you want for the 4.3, if it's not a standard grind comp will grind it for (I think) $35 extra.

Anything you can get for a 350 you can get for a 4.3, just buy smart. If you want a geardrive buy a SBC one and it fits.

And futhermore what was the first production engine to get the "famed" vortech heads? Yup, that's right the 4.3. I know my stuff here guys. I have a BBC a SBC and a 4.3, I can prove what I'm saying.

 

hey boys, you all forgot one thing. '95 Blazers had TBI or the OPTIONAL MPFI. Only '95 though. Didn't they go back to TBI afterward. I'll go look on my ma's LS '99 Blazer. My sister's '95 LT is MPFI. Looks like a TPI w/out the front runners & bank of cylinders. 180-190 horse or so. Must be a LT only thing in '95. It's the only Blazer I've seen like that.

------------------
1988 Camaro Sport Coupe
2.8 V6, TCI 3200 Stall TC, B&M Transkit, 80 Series Flowmaster w/ Catback, '85 Firebird SE 3.73 Rear (soon)
'83 CFI Z/28 Hood, '87 16" IROC Wheels on Kumho Ecsta Supra 712's, '92 Z/28 Bowtie Grille
IROC Gauges, IROC Taillights, IROC Foglamps w/ retrofitted 9005 hi-beam headlight bulbs

1985 Firebird SE
2.5 I4, T-5, 3.73 rear (going to the sport coupe)
Beat to a pulp.

 

It's not MPFI, thats a different system. I pulled a 98 blazer LS out of a ditch last night after it rolled twice. It's a CPI. You can still get TBI in the 1/2 ton trucks. After 94 all blazers were CPI. The last year you could get the TBI in a blazer was 94. I'm not sure about the astro's.

The TBI puts out about 180 ponies and the CPI system cranks out around 225 thanks to a different cam and the injection system. I'm still not sure why GM added the balance shaft. I'm thinking it has to do with the harmonics in the crankshaft.

 

87RS402:
If I get a carb, then what type of injection should I use. It has to be street legal, therefore I need FI. If I get an externally balanced motor, will I or should I say, would I want to run CFI or go with a TB? I have a prom burner at work so I should be able to create a chip after some research. I'm also trying to remeber if there is 4 3/8 space on the crossmember to move the motor back.

I was really leaning towards the newer3800II, but I have not made up my mind yet. Just seems like it would be effective. 200hp. blowers availible. I bet I could somehow use the bellhousing off a newer T5 and make the Tremec work. Maybe?

How much could you bore out the 4.3. Could you make it a 5.0? Just thought it would be interesting, ya know keeping it "stock" with a 5.0. Not that it really matters.

So I could get all 350 forged pistons and some pinked rods. I wonder how good that crank will hold up to. Seeing that it would be coming out of a truck, it should be good at least to 300-350 ft-lbs.

Thanks everybody for your input and please keep it coming. It really helps me get creative & motivated.

 

Graeb, In theory you could bore a 4.3 out .060 and stroke it to 3.75" using all off the shelf parts. However a 3.75" stroke crank is not available. As for the injection, CPI makes the most power. TBI has the most aftermarket support. I'm not sure if the CPI will bolt to the non-balance shaft engine though. Myself, I would go with the TBI and build it just like a 350 then burn a prom for it. It shouldn't be hard to get 300 hp from an Injected 262 CID V-6. You can get a blower for it and build the engine to take 15-20 lbs of boost and then I would think 300+ would be easily attainable. Don't use the stock manifold though. Edelbrock makes a TBI manifold for the 4.3 and/or you can get a TBI spacer. The spacer is said to increase power on a stock engine about 30 hp. The drawback is hood clearance with the airfilter.

FYI, the syclone/typhoon engines were/are 280 hp turbo 4.3's. Right out of the GM factory. 0-60 in 4.8 seconds.

 

are you sure??? I know for a fact that my sister's '95 blazer has a completely different intake setup than I've seen on others. I used to work at a pontiac dealer, and I was under the hoods of at least 100 blazers/jimmy's/bravadas/ and only 2 had this totally different intake than the rest. they were '95 blazers.


edit.... maybe it's just visual?
------------------
1988 Camaro Sport Coupe
2.8 V6, TCI 3200 Stall TC, B&M Transkit, 80 Series Flowmaster w/ Catback, '85 Firebird SE 3.73 Rear (soon)
'83 CFI Z/28 Hood, '87 16" IROC Wheels on Kumho Ecsta Supra 712's, '92 Z/28 Bowtie Grille
IROC Gauges, IROC Taillights, IROC Foglamps w/ retrofitted 9005 hi-beam headlight bulbs

1985 Firebird SE
2.5 I4, T-5, 3.73 rear (going to the sport coupe)
Beat to a pulp.

[This message has been edited by SlowCamaro88SC (edited April 10, 2001).]

 

Get on a Turbo Regal web ring, one company on there sells the 3.8 longblock for like $1,300 and an upgraded turbo isnt that much. Give 20psi a run for his money, and some competition on this board!

 

Slow, I'm sure. I'll buy the visual difference, but GM isn't into doing things for one year only when it comes to powertrains. That's a ford thing.

Edit: 95 was the first year for the new body style on the blazers, that could have something to do with the visual difference. The p/u body was changed in 94 and I think the different hood line made the change from TBI to CPI mandatory because of clearance.

I'm trying to think if the vortech system is different. I know it's port injected, but I'm thinking that there is a difference in the runners. GMTech would be a good one for this information.

Violate, You might be able to help here. I was just looking at advanced adapters ( www.advanceadapters.com )website to get info for what might become a new project for me and read that the 3.8 is a 90* bolt pattern for the trans. I thought that it was a 60*. I could be wrong, I have never owned a 3.8 and have no knowledge of those.

[This message has been edited by 87RS402 (edited April 10, 2001).]

 

My Dads Blazer is a 1992, whats the difference between TBI, and CPI, I didn;t see a difference...but the engine is unkillable 265000km, and it doesn;t burn more than 1/2 a litre between oil changes...

4.3 is good motor, so's the 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4, but the hp you want to make, go with the 4.3.

 

CPI looks different from the outside. I used to know the actual internal specifics, but I forgot them. Sorry.

 

It's real easy to tell the difference, TBI has a big round aircleaner on top. CPI has a remote airbox and looks vaguely like a TPI setup, so no aircleaner on top.

With blazers and p/u's you can tell the difference by the VIN#. The 8th digit in the VIN will be a Z for TBI and a W for CPI. They are commonly referred to as z or w engines to tell them apart in parts catalogs.

 

In reguards to the 3.8 bolt pattern.

Is a v-8 a 60* or 90* bolt pattern.

 

Get a 3.8 Turbo set up out of a wrecked TTA!

------------------
89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

 

And where, my friend, am I going to be able to find one of those. Frankly, I would love to just buy one. Maybe some day or if you ever want to trade for a 10 sec Camaro?

Did the turboed 3.8 only come in the TTA or did they release some non TTA Aniversary Edition ones. I thought I seen a red bird with a turbo badge on it, but did not get a close enough look.

 

Graeb, V-8's and the 4.3 are 90* patterns. The 2.8, 3.1, and the 3.4 are 60*. I'm working on which one the 3.8 is.

Kyle, if only life were so simple. The syclone/typhoon engines are eaiser to find and have a 30 cubic inch advantage. And I can build a clone of one of those engines cheaper, easier, and way more powerful than a TTA engine. What is it you drive again? What was that?.....A Yugo! That's worse than a *****.

 

You can find them. There is one in a junk yard in Cincinnati that I was going to buy if I didn't get this one that I found in Washinton Court House Ohio. Thats 2 of them that I know of in Ohio.

As for a red one, well maybe. There were two prototype Turbo T/A's built that were not white. I am not even sure if they are numbered in the 1555 made. Just like there is one convertible that was a prototype that they didn't build any of either, but some guy in Mexico owns it. Though I doubt that Pontiac put those expensive emblems on their Prtotypes that were not white. Seeing how impossible it is to find a Turbo Trans Am being driven on the road I sould seriously doubt you saw 1 of only 2 that were not white, But hey Maybe you did. Should have got a pic

Building a 3.8 Turbo is much easier than a 4.3. That buick block has been around since 1962. Theay are everywhere. Plus the 3.8 is stronger than a 4.3. Also I would like to know where you are going to get the stuff to make a twin turbo set up on it and fit it all under the hood of the camaro.

I drive a 93 Escort GT everyday at school and I might say its a really nice Econo-Box for $3000 I pad for it 3 years ago. Then I also drive a fully loaded Turbo Trans Am ( well as soon as it finished)


------------------
89 Trans Am Turbo 3.8L All stock 43,000 miles #1053 of 1555

Past Thirdgen:
86 Trans Am w/ built 355TPI with SLP goodies and too much other stuff to List. One sweet *** car, wish I would have had a good enough Job to pay insurance on three cars so I could keep it, but for a 89 Turbo Trans Am w/ Low miles, I think I made the right choice!

[This message has been edited by Kyle F (edited April 12, 2001).]

 

How is the 3.8 stronger. I'm not being sarcastic, just asking why the bottom end is stronger. I'm sure the GN and TTA 3.8's are stronger just cause they came from the factory w/ turbos, probably forged cranks. I would think that everyday 3.8's are just as strong as everyday 4.3's.

Don't let people knock ya cause ya drive a beater to have a nice car in the garage. God knows I've driven some real shiit boxes to build the Camaro. That is the only way you can do it right and not have to worry about rushing to meet deadlines.I was the same then I bought the Bird and the Camaro is still sitting 80% finished. I keep thinking of selling one to finish the other, like you have been contemplating about your 86.

As far as slapping a twin turbo in a F-body, I guess you have not seen the guy on the BB that has a TT-305. He has a really cool site documenting his work. He is lucky enough to have the skills/tools to do alot of his own custom fab work.

One more question: Is there enough room on the cross member to move the mounts 4 3/8" back? I would run a motor plate, but the more I think of it, the ride would become very harsh and probably vibrate like hell.

OK One more. Can the 4.3's be stepped up to four bolt mains like the small blocks. That is what I had done to my 406.

Thanks again everyone. Let's keep this tread alive.

Mike

 

OK I'll try this again.

anything you can do to a SBC you can do to a 4.3, with the exception of stroking it. The only reason you can't stroke it is that nobody makes a stroker crank. Beyond that, treat the build up as a 350 -2 cylinders.

As for the 3.8 being stronger, The 4.3 has been around since the 50's. The key here is that the 4.3 was made by eliminating 2 holes from a 350. The design has been time tested and proved over billions of miles. The 4.3 itself has been made as everything from a 140 hp truck engine to a 280 hp turbo. If the factory is willing to take a standard block and heads to 280 hp, I'm willing to take it to 350+.

How is a twin turbo 4.3 going to fit in a 3rd gen engine bay? The answer is just fine. I have (somewhere around here) pics of a 4th gen with a TT set up on a V-8. It damn near fits under the hood with a 4" cowl induction scoop.

Graeb, you ask if there is room on the X-member to move the mounts back 4-3/8". Take a tape measure and find out. If not you can weld a piece of 1/4" plate steel with 1" angle iron to act as bracing to the area. It should fit, how far back do the 2.8 mounts need to go from where the V-8 is?

Kyle, How do you know which one is easier to build? Have you done both? What's your experience with both engines? If you haven't noticed I don't make alot of comments on the 3.8. That would be because I'm not famillair with them. I do know the BBC's, SBC's, 4.3's and the 472-500 caddilacs. I've had a 2.8 but I never cared to study the design so I don't know alot about those either. Here's an idea, you talk about what you know and I'll talk about what I know and we can keep this discussion to the technical merits of each engine.