Will running without a thermostat hurt my car?

------------------
1988 Camaro RS
2.8L five speed
accel cap and rotor, crane cams 8.5mm wire
TB bypass


1988 Camaro
2.8L automatic
t-tops
160* THERMO, TB bypass
Rapid fire plugs
SOLD goodbye old friend

 

You'll run hotter. The coolant will flow too fast through the engine to absorb any heat. Moroso sells "water neck restrictors", which are basically discs of metal with a hole in the center. They simulate an open thermostat, and should be easy to make by yourself.


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

sorry tom you have it backwards..he'll run a lot cooler and have no heat or defroster. you can drive the car forever and still have no heat. your engines will not lke it either, if your car is computer controled you will run perpetually in enrichment mode. basically you will burn to much gas.

 

Yup.... and burning more gas equals what? Carbon build up... not good. I think it would be fine for MAYBE a week or two, but I still wouldn't reccomend it. After all, the thermo is there for a reason.


------------------
--'87 Camaro LT --
Currently undergoing a 2.8->3.4 swap.....

 

I had learned that I was right; however, it seems that thinking of mine might be part of the "old school way"... check out the message I just started on the tech board:

https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/007954.html


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Soory tomp but you have no idea on how thermodynamics work. Thermostat keeps the warm coolant in the engine. When it gets to a certain temp it opens and lets it flow to cool down. Without a thermmostat the coolant never gets the chance to warm up. Theres nothing to hold it in one place to obsorb any heat, therefore it never warms up.

If it helps think of a bathtub. the water closest to the nozzle is the warmest. Why?, beacuse it is "held" there. Now when you still the water to create a current what happens?, the waters temp goes down by the nozzle and warms up everywhere else.
If it helps think of a invisable wall in the center of the tub. This will be a thermostat. Now when you create a current to circulate the water you have "opened" the thermostat so the water in the back that is cooler warms up and the water by the nozzle cools down.


next time you fill a bath tub try it. the nozzle area will be the hot engine water, the middle will be the thermostat and the back of the tub the radiator.

 

In answer to your question, all of us v6'ers will gather together, and go on wild goose chase in Tx looking for you until we find you and your car where we'll string you up in a tree and install a thermo in your car. PUT ONE IN.

Hey guys, we can all meet at my place. Guess I'm lucky he's in Tx. Less travel for me!!!

I am just kiddin BTW

------------------
Smile, you're in my rearview I'm joking, I have a v6.
Respect My Authoritaw {Cartman Voice}
See pics @ Billy's Firebird
92 Bird 3.1L Auto--Best $750 I ever spent....DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
Kills:93 Mustang LX (Before Mods),98 or 99 Dodge Stratus (tough one, edged out at 40),92 Camaro RS 305 TBI-Not too fair, his fuel pump went out 2 days later. Nice car, but not running right. 97+ Honda somethin or another...modded....kept at my door the entire way
Close Calls-94 Grand Am 3.1 V6, 92 Cavalier 3.1 V6
01 Porsche 911 Turbo (Had em till first gear)
Mods-Jet Stage 2 Performance Chip, Accel Cap/Rotor, Accel 8.8 MM Wires, Accell Coil, AC Delco Rapidfire Plugs, Dynomax Catback, K&N
AIM name OVRCLCK350
Best LOUSY Run...17.263 @ 77.79MPH
In a Dog Eat Dog world, I STILL go after tha cat.

[This message has been edited by Ovrclck350 (edited April 17, 2001).]

 

Come get some.

 

I'm in agreement with Camaro Hunter on this one; no t-stat will cause the engine to run cooler. But this is not necessarily a good thing as the engine can get into an "overcooling" situation where the metal internally doesn't expand to proper tolerances, you burn more gas and a host of other problems as Camaro Hunter and others outlined in the other post.

The biggest problem is that your ecm will never think your engine has warmed up and will remain in "start up" mode; thus burning even more gas by running too rich. Your idle speed will also be higher. Lastly, if you are subject to emissions, you will most likely fail.

I had a T-stat fail a few years ago, and it caused my engine to never attain closed loop status nor lock my Torque Convertor. Needless to say my gas mileage was horrible. It's amazing what a relatively cheap and minor part can cause to happen.

If you have a "wet intake" like TBI, your "mixture" may not atomize and cause "puddling" of the fuel. Wet intakes rely on some of the heat to help with atomizing the mixture.

Even a 160* t-stat (which I no longer like) is better than NO T-stat. If someone has a problem where they need to remove their T-stat due to overheating; they need their cooling system fixed. Not using a T-stat is bad news for a computer controlled engine.

 

I don't? I believe I do have "some idea". I never claimed to be an expert on the topic. I merely said what has been re-stated to me over and over in times past. Plenty of other people believe the same way I did. That's why I said I was part of the "old school" way of thinking- which said that coolant flowing too fast won't pick up any heat. Apparently the school of thought has changed. I never said anything about heat transfer otherwise.

But thank you for explaining how the cooling system works! I always wondered what the radiator was for! Now I have to figure out how to put the coolant back into my car after pouring it into my bathtub.

------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited April 18, 2001).]

 

I was just giving you a hard time tom...:-)

 

"That" -> https://www.thirdgen.org/messgboard/...ML/007954.html <- was "just giving me a hard time" over there?


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

Well Tomp I was being nice..now I have "had it"....read and try to learn something. I tried to be nice about this and tried not to make you look like to much a fool..

Well if you do know something about thermodynamics(Like you claim too) then you know that cold fluid is thicker. Hense will not flow well. And with that you are left with the obvious hotter the fluid the more "pliable" it is and will flow better.
Now if you think that not having a thermostat will overheat a car by ANY school of thought well...thats just stupid. Anyone that knows how a cooling system works knows that the more coolant flows the cooler it is..PERIOD.
Now that is why a thermostat IS needed to get the coolant to a good flow temp, and to help the engines metal warm up properly to allow it to expand as needed to create proper clearance tolerances.
And for any other I have posted replies to this Tomp's other message. I am not going to pollute the board with repetitive messages. There it has a VERY logical to why no thermo will keep the coolant cool no matter what. But it just seems that tom is dead set that having no thermo your engine will run warmer. Personally in 7 plus years of working on cars I have NEVER seen this to be true to any degree.
[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited April 19, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited April 19, 2001).]

 

The faster coolant flows through the system, the more it cools (if the rest of the system is operating properly). That is why people will put in high flow water pumps, to make the engine cool better.

The few people that I have met where they've incurred the "phenomenom" of "the coolant getting hotter with no T-stat" ALL had problems with their cooling system. This is why they removed their T-stat in the first place.

But, if you think about why people put high flow waterpumps on (to make the coolant circulate faster) then the answer is obvious. If the reverse was true, then people would put in lower flowing water pumps.

I hope people can see this logic and realize what Camaro_d is saying, is correct and end this silly debate. If you continue to doubt, then slow down your waterpump and tell us what happens.

 

thanks glenn finally someone that sees the light! LOL

 

Camaro hunter, I've always been in agreement with you regarding the functioning of the T-stat. I was just trying to come up with an example that would convince people. I think the "high flow water pump" should do it.

I know that when I installed "underdrive pullies" on my car, that the coolant heated up FASTER to the point where it would turn on the electric fans when in "stop n go" traffic. The notion that "coolant moves too fast through the radiator to properly cool down" is another myth. It completely overlooks the shear volume of coolant moving through the radiator. I hope this finally dispells these myths. If not, I will now insist that they install a low flow water pump and tell me what happens vs a high flow.

 

Actually, I don't feel foolish at all. You're the one that's turned a learning experience into a flame-fest. There's two ways of discussing something- you chose the asinine way. When Glenn talks, I listen- he explains things correctly, and "talks to". You babble on about different things, throw in attacks, and "talk at". I'm hear to learn and teach and have fun, not get jumped on by the likes of you. Further, your whole argument is still wrong.

WHY??

Of course the coolant will stay cooler! I never said it wouldn't! You have trouble deciding between "coolant temp" and "engine temp". You're holding onto a few falsities, and I don't know where they came from.

1. FALSE: You think I said running with no thermostat will cause the car to overheat. TRUE: I said nothing about anything overheating. TRUE: I said the engine would run hotter, NOT the car, NOT the coolant.

2. FALSE: You think this whole discussion is about COOLANT temperature, because you talk about "overheating", "bathtubs", and "cold fluid density". TRUE: The discussion is about ENGINE temperature, not the coolant.

Yeah, yeah, coolant temp this, coolant temp that; there you go again.

I have no idea why you equate coolant temperature with engine temperature. I suppose you'd tell me that running straight 100% antifreeze would keep the car cooler, right? Of course it would- to you. You'd argue that since the coolant temperature was so low, that the engine was cooling perfectly. However, in reality, the engine would be hotter because water has a higher coefficient of thermal conductivity than glycol. If I used the wrong term of thermal conductivity, then excuse me, it's been 2 years since physics in college, (maybe it's specific heat, "Q"?,) so I'll put it in "normal terms"- Water absorbs heat better than antifreeze does. Don't tell me you'll argue that! (laughs) Yet, it's the same argument -originally- proposed. You run 100% antifreeze and the engine will be hotter than a 50%/50% antifreeze/water mix- however, the TEMPERATURE of the coolant would be low in both cases.

In fact, I caught you in a contradiction in the message on the tech board, which shows you have no idea about what this discussion was about. "It'll cause hot spots"... (laughs)

------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited April 20, 2001).]

 

tom You still have no clue. I tried to explain and you still do not get it. By a logical train of thought if the coolant is cold..then the engine will be cold as well...As someone on the other thread said the coolant will pick up engine heat no matter the flow rate.
Now you say that fast moving coolant does not cool the engine then why when a thermostat opens the engine cools down?. Maybe what I have been saying as glenn has pointed out I am correct. No matter the flow rate the coolant still picks up and flows to the radiator and then gets cooled by passing air. Why you cannot see this is beyond me. I thought I had explained it pretty well actually, but I guess to some it just can't be explained too.
Anyway I am done tring to explain this. I will never see a engine with no thermostat over heat or run hotter than one that has a thermostat. As Glenn explained if the cooling system is functioning properly then no thermo will indefinately keep the engine cooler than the engine with the thermostat.

Now especially for you tom here you go nice and barney style for you.
1. No thermostat. coolant runs freely through the engine. The water/coolant STILL picks up/obsorbs any heat that is there and then moves to the radiator to allow it to be cooled by passing air. It then runs through the engine again cooler than the coolant in the engine. Now this to me explains that the coolant will always stay cooler period.
2. engine with thermostat. The coolant warms to 180-195 or what ever the thermostat temperature setting is. It then flows to the radiator and cools. Then the cooler radiator fluid hits the engine cooling the engine. Now as long as the thermostat is open the coolant will continue to LOWER the engine temperature.
Now why you can't see this happening with no thermostat is beyond me. The more flow that can go through an engine the cooler it will run...PERIOD. The statement that you have about the faster the coolant flows the less it can pick up is well...nevermind.
If you can obviously see that when the thermostat open after the coolant is hot will cool the engine, but cannot see that not having the restriction/hold up of the thermostat will keep the coolant cold which will translate to lower engine temps is beyond me. You say you took physics in collage but still cannot see this simple thermodynamic principle. By the way I worked on the fuel cooling systems for the navy jet fighters so I do think I know something about this.
And if you still have an arguement do as glenn said and install a low flow water pump and see what happens...other than that I have nothing else to say. I have made my point, you can either see if for the fact that it is or continue to lie to yourself.



[This message has been edited by Camaro_hunter_d (edited April 20, 2001).]

 

(yawn) Moron; that's what the whole conversation was about- whether that "train of thought" is correct or not. Next time, talk about the same thing the rest of us are!


------------------
-Tom P (Hot rodded 1986 Firebird 2.8l) from http://www.f-body.net/mailbag/3rd/3rd_mailbag.html message boards
---Think your car could be pic of the week? Visit http://www.f-body.net for details!

 

back to the name calling tom...well child you found out you were wrong so you all names...how grown up. and if you sit there and say if the coolant is cold then the engine is cold then why did you say that the coolant would be warmer than the engine?... Nevermind I really don't want to know your excuses anymore.

 

(laughs) My god man, learn how to follow a message thread. I was quoting YOU. YOU are the one that said cold coolant = cold engine. I NEVER said that. Also, my last posting on the Tech Board stated that I've determined I'm no longer wrong. You've been talking about something completely DIFFERENT than the rest of us. We've been ...

[edit] Ya know what? You're right about one thing: "Never mind." If you haven't gotten it by now, you never will. I'm tired of telling you that you're discussing something completely different. No matter how many times I lay it out for you, you twist it up, and come up with something else off-topic... such as your mis-interpretation of a QUOTE by YOU. Therefore, I'm done with you.


[This message has been edited by TomP (edited April 24, 2001).]

 

Ok. Running w/o a thermostat is bad. Nuff said.

------------------
Smile, you're in my rearview I'm joking, I have a v6.
Respect My Authoritaw {Cartman Voice}
See pics @ Billy's Firebird
92 Bird 3.1L Auto--Best $750 I ever spent....DRIVE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT!
Kills:93 Mustang LX (Before Mods),98 or 99 Dodge Stratus (tough one, edged out at 40),92 Camaro RS 305 TBI-Not too fair, his fuel pump went out 2 days later. Nice car, but not running right. 97+ Honda somethin or another...modded....kept at my door the entire way
Close Calls-94 Grand Am 3.1 V6, 92 Cavalier 3.1 V6
01 Porsche 911 Turbo (Had em till first gear)
Mods-Jet Stage 2 Performance Chip, Accel Cap/Rotor, Accel 8.8 MM Wires, Accell Coil, AC Delco Rapidfire Plugs, Dynomax Catback, K&N
AIM name OVRCLCK350
Best LOUSY Run...17.263 @ 77.79MPH
In a Dog Eat Dog world, I STILL go after tha cat.