zombienerd

So, I'm picking up my "New" Firebird this week. It is a 1982 Firebird Base with the 2.8L V6, 2bbl. Automatic with only 3900 original miles on it. (Yes, you read that right)

As you know, this engine is woefully under powered for such a large car, and I'd like a little better acceleration without having to replace half the car I can't bring myself to consider a V8 swap when the engine is practically brand new.

I've already got new hoses, belts, tires, vacuum lines, etc waiting to go on the car to replace the original items. Also ordering new rubber seals for the doors, windows, etc.

Anyhoo, I've read through the "how do I get more juice" thread, but it seems to mostly cover FI cars, and doesn't mention anything specific about the carbureted engines.

1) I'm already planning on having the exhaust re-done, but looking at the headers that are listed in the FAQ, they only list them for 85-89, what prevents them from being used on an 82? I'd most likely be removing the Cat, and smog gear, as they don't do Emissions sniffing here in NH.

2) I'd like to put the Edelbrock intake onto it, and go to a 4bbl carburetor, I've read that a 390cfm is plenty large for this engine, is that a correct assumption? How bad would it run with a 500 or 650cfm? I already have a mid 60's Carter AFB 650, so it would save some cash if it's possible to use.

3) Camshaft: I've seen a few recommendations, but once again, they were geared towards the FI cars, would there be any special consideration given for a carbureted application? I'd like it to be as easy an install as possible, I don't want to replace half the engine just to run a new cam Recommendations are welcome here!! The easier the swap for the most benefit wins this round.

Total budget around $1000 for engine mods, with some wiggle room upwards. I'm a weekend mechanic, and this car will be a driver, so I'd like to be able to do any job over a weekend at most. I don't like to undertake jobs that take 4-5 days of work :P

Realistically, I think I'd be happy with 150-180rwhp, and some extra torque.


For the "TL;DR" folks: If you had a brand new 82 2.8L, how would you wake it up for the least amount of cash, and ease of installation.

91camaroRS3.1

deff start with exhaust. its cheap and easy to do. what carb is it BTW?

midias

A 500 or 650 carb will be way to big. I would go for the 390CFM carb with the edelbrock manifold and call delta cams they can help you. Get some headers and full 2.5 inch exhaust.

zombienerd

I Believe it's a Rochester E2SE stock, but I haven't taken the air cleaner off to verify.

The Car is bone stock, was in a New York City underground garage since the mid 80's... Untouched. The gentlemen who is selling it to me liberated it a year ago, cleaned it up, but didn't replace anything. He said that they are the original tires, but they're Uniroyal white letter. I didn't think Pontiac ever used them, so they may not be original.

It has a few dents and dings (was an older lady who owned it originally, only to church / grocery store lol), and has some poor repair work to the front of both fenders (right behind the bumper), but for a 3800 mile car, I'm not complaining, and will fix the dings, dents, and scratches with joy.

Once I get it home, I'll post some pictures. Waiting for the check to clear :P

91camaroRS3.1

score, good find man

ex-x-fire

I had a camaro w/ that engine, I did some grinding on the linkage so the secondary barrel would open 100%.
If you go w/ the eddy intake & holley 390, make sure you get the linkage worked out right, from what I remember the eddy instructions said not for auto transmissions. I had a 5spd.

zombienerd

Did grinding the linkage increase your acceleration, HP, or just give it a little more top end?

project89

iTrader: (1)

best mods would be to swap the heads for a set of heads off a feul injected motor that would give u around 20hp, set of headers and the edelbrock manifold with the 390 carb

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

Im in the same boat as you, except my car is a 4 speed. I am going with the pacesetter headers, turbo catback system, a 260 cam, edelbrock 4bbl intake/carb, and a few other little things. Ported and polished heads are somewhere down the line.

ex-x-fire

It helped alittle, if you look at the carb. notice that the secondary barrel flap doesn't open all the way. I also flip flopped the air cleaner lid.

project89

iTrader: (1)

dont port the stock 2.8 heads, the carbed heads have smaller valves and really crappy ports vs the fuel injected 2.8/3.1/3.4 heads

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

I ment if/when i get new heads. I have no plans for the stock ones since they arent worth the time or money.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

Y'all are forgetting this is an 82 with the weak crank... I'd fix that before any power-adding parts. They have been proven to not hold up to very much.

Other than that, any heads post-85 will bolt right in. And be a good starting point after getting rid of the weak crank...

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

Im not forgetting that and actually brought it up in one of my threads when i was asking. Compared to the other mods and stuff to increase power replacing the crank is a lot more work and would involve taking just about everything apart. Also, the power gains from a cam and other small things isnt going to be enough to destroy the crankshaft (unless you do something crazy). On that same note i asked where to get a good upgrade crank and dint really get an answer.

Maverick H1L

iTrader: (8)

It all depends on how hard you get on the gas... Those cranks have been known to break on a stock engine.

Adrenaline1

iTrader: (1)

Like you said, it depends on how hard you are on the engine. You can destroy just about anything if you beat on it.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if he dont beat on it it shouldnt be an issue, but theres always that chance.
ive seen stock 2.8 carbed motors spit the cankshaft that werent abused so u really never know
ideally i would replace the motor with a 3.4 and bolt on the intake and carb, if the carbed 2.8 is brand new or pretty close to it that would be a waste.

zombienerd

Picked it up tonight!! You can read the intro over in the Member's car area:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/memb...-new-82-a.html

Gumby

on the MPFI just freeing up the intake and exhaust and keeping the temps well below 200F makes a big change.

TomP

Wow sweet time capsule! What's it like to have a rust free car? I agree w/project89 (MPFI heads would wake it up) and Maverick (that's the weak-crank car), and it's also a weak-trans car. Is it the three speed? That was a TH-200C trans. You may want to pick up a junkyard mpfi v6 85-up (better crankshaft) and 87-up 4-speed auto to drop in later.

I forget the rear gear ratio- but I'm pretty sure it's higher (numerically lower) than a 3.42, probably 3.23- so if you swapped out the rear you'd get better off-the-line performance, but your cruising RPM's would be higher by a few hundred. Not a big deal in a 4-speed auto but might be a pain-point in your three speed auto.

zombienerd

It's not 100% rust free, but 98% or so. The rear axle attaching hardware is surface rusted, and there's a few spots of surface rust popping up around the car. Easy fixes though.

It is an automatic, and I was sure it was supposed to be a 3 speed (TH200), but for some reason, my mind is telling me I feel it shift a 3rd time when accelerating. Was a 4sp auto even an option in 82? I'm going to have to crawl under the car and get the numbers off the trans, it wouldn't make sense for a car with this low mileage to have had a tranny swap, but you never know. I'm finding lots of things have been taken off that I wouldn't have thought needed to be (interior panel screws showing tool marks from cheap screwdrivers, one of the 6x9's had a different screw in one hole, etc), but that could have been as-built knowing GM in those days.

I'm not a racer by any means, in fact, I usually drive like a granny But I do like to know my car has enough juice to get out of the way of whatever is moving faster than I am. Budget is limited with two kids, but birthdays, Christmas, and tax season always give me a little push to add stuff. I think I'd be happy if I could hit 160hp / 190 ft/lb out of it, around par for the stock 305's.

I'm thinking Intake/carb and headers first, then take it from there.

project89

iTrader: (1)

Heads,headers,then intake and carb would be a much better way of doing it.
also the heads will have the biggest single gain

TomP

Ha that rust's nothin. My car's rusted almost in half If you want to stop that, check out http://www.por15.com , I highly recommend it (get the three-stage starter kit).

I think all 82's had the 3 speed, 83 & 84 started the 4-speed 700r4 but those had plenty of problems too (weak input shaft, pump caused cavitation & ran dry, etc). Strange about the different screws. See if you can find the build sheet, that'd be cool. Asssembly line guys would either throw them out or stash them under the rear seats/carpet/etc.

Nobody answered your headers question; the 85-up headers have an EGR provision and (if I recall correctly) no AIR pump ports. So they'll fit your engine but you'd need to close/open holes as needed.

zombienerd

Is it ok to say that it's outside my comfort range? :P I've never swapped a set of heads before, but I've changed intakes and bolted on headers.

I suppose I could pick up a chiltons for the torque specs, but all the valve springs, rockers, etc scare me I honestly wouldn't know where to start, and I hate having to call for help :P Not saying I'm against doing it, but it would take a lot of reading before I'd be comfortable.

Then again, it's probably cheaper to pick up a set of used low mile heads than buying a new intake/carb/headers... Something for me to ponder.

project89

iTrader: (1)

if u can swap an intake and carb/install headers u can deffinatly swap the heads

the hardest part of it is readjusting the valves when u put it back together and even that isnt thathard to do.

as far as valve springs and all that u dont have to worry about that.
just pick up a set of head from ur local junkyard off a 3.4 motor out of a 93/94 camaro or a set of heads off a 90-92 3.1 camaro and bolt them on as is. just make sure the car u get the heads from isnt in the junkyard cause the motor went bad lol

zombienerd

My car is emissions exempt in NH, not that they sniff in my area anyway, just an OBD check, so I have no issue ripping out emissions gear if it means more power.

I looked under the front and back seats already :P That's where they always stashed them on the H-bodies (owned several of those), but don't really want to tear the car apart to look under the carpet!

I planned on the POR-15 (or similar) already for the suspension surface rust, but haven't had a chance to pick any up...

project89

iTrader: (1)

my sheet was under the seat but tucked up into the seat above the steel springs inbetween the springs and foam in the seat

TomP

You may not have an issue ripping out your emissions gear, but I do. That gives our my hobby a bad name.

[rant removed] Ah well whatever but I'll tell ya, EGR doesn't rob any power. It only kicks in at high-speed low-throttle cruising.

zombienerd

I was simply stating that if I were to put headers on the car, I'd have to remove the AIR system, as it's incompatible with the headers. I have no problems with emissions gear, but if it gets in the way of upgrades, it's gotta go

However, I don't see how removing emissions gear in places where it is legal gives anyone a bad name. I mean, maybe the hippy, tree hugging greenpeace folks might flip me the bird, but every automotive hobbyist I've ever met had no issues with removing the stuff when legal and advantageous. If my state's government has no issues, I have no issues.

cIaRmOaCrZo

i wouldnt go near that car with a tool. too nice of a time capsule. looks well preserved. but hopefuly u dont hack it if u do end up tearing into that gem.

zombienerd

Not hacking anything Just making it into a nice cruiser / driver. I'm only home 4 months a year, so my cars don't even get 5k a year on them.

Everything that gets taken off/out gets saved, for the ability to make it factory again. The speakers were kind of rough, they were falling apart as I removed them

I'll admit, I do feel a little pang in the chest every time I put another mile on it, but then I have to remind myself that cars are meant to be driven :P

I do right by my vehicles, and I don't "Bubba" anything. It's in good hands.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

That extra shift you feel is the lockup torque converter. The car is a 3 speed automatic with a TH200c.

OdieTurbo

iTrader: (1)

Tom, I've been doing a lot of research as I'm thinking along the same lines myself. At 30+ years old, the sensors, electronics, plastic fiddly parts, etc. are all in poor condition and getting hard to replace.

What I've found in my research is interesting. The AIR pump simply pumped air into the exhaust to lower the carbon monoxide/dioxide to oxygen ratios - they simply pumped fresh air in to make it read better, it does nothing to reduce emissions. The E2SE carb uses a stone age solenoid to adjust fuel mixture based on an O2 sensor, vacuum sensor, and coolant sensor. Putting on a 2SE (non-computer controlled carb) and adjusting it using a good O2 sensor will yield nearly the same results. The technology was so lacking that it all barely worked. It was a band-aid until fuel injection came along.

Other than that, catalytic converters are non-restrictive nowadays and can be left in place. The EGR is vacuum controlled and does not hurt power at all and can also be left in place - in fact, the carbs on our cars are designed to have it in place and it may run worse without it.

TomP

Apparently the air pump was supposed to help the catalytic converter be more efficient- it wasn't just a ratio thing. I used to think the same but was corrected. Here's my message from 2002 (10 years ago, wow):

But since GM stopped using AIR pumps on the 2.8 with fuel injection, I'll agree with you that if the cat is replaced with a new one (as part of a free-flowing exhaust upgrade), the AIR pump can be discarded, too.

Don't worry about it, seriously. Ultimately the more efficient you make your engine (or anyone makes any engine), the less pollutants it will produce. You may very well build something that runs cleaner than what GM originally put in your 82.

I agree w/Odie again here: Getting rid of EGR makes no sense. Eliminating the catalytic converter does not make sense. Getting rid of a 1970's pipe-clogging catalytic convertor for a modern catalytic converter (all modern cats, even from factory, are high-flow compared to the 70's designs) does make sense.

zombienerd

So as long as I pull them off a working motor, I won't need to adjust anything, right? Just bolt on and go?

Does changing to the 3.1/3.4 heads change my compression ratio? I'm guessing the chamber size was the same?

Besides the heads and a new set of head gaskets, could you think of anything else that would need to be purchased?

After looking up prices at the local junkyards, I could see doing this swap in the very near future. Only ~$50 for a set that is known good. My only concern is the wear difference by mileage, The rest of the engine is brand new, I'd want to find a set off of a low mile car to at least try to match it

midias

If you swap the heads might as well do the cam while you are in there. Also look into the edelbrock intake and holley carbon combo

project89

iTrader: (1)

if they come off a good running motor u wont have anything to worry about, really the only thing that can wear out,or might be worn out would be the valve springs, and thats very highly unlikley

and yes the chamber is the same size, the fuel injected heads have larger valves and better ports but everything else is the same.


if u reallywanted u could buy a set of comp cams valve springs and install those, new valve springs would run about 55 bucks shipped from summit

besdies head gaskets u will also need the intake and ex manifold gaskets

ex-x-fire

You know what I'd do, pull the whole engine w/ all the emissions stuff & seal it up in a crate. Then build a nice 3.4 w/ a 4 bbl. carb, headers, cam, ect.

zombienerd

Lol... Maybe if I win the lottery :P I dropped 7 grand on the car, and about a grand in things it needed to be street safe (rubber parts). I'll be lucky if I can throw another $500 at it by years end.

I hear what you're saying, loud and clear! But, I'm on a budget, and have to do things one "cheap" part at a time. With a wife and two kids, I can easily tell the wife, "Hey, my car needs a new $150 part" and she'll swallow it easily, however, saying "Hey, I need to blow 2 grand on a new engine when this one is running fine" won't fly :P

Not to mention, if I were to be replacing the engine, it would probably end up with something "Different", like an Aluminum 215 V8.

ex-x-fire

I'm not saying buy a new crate motor, buy a 3.4 out of the junk yard (2-300bucks), work on (freshen it up) it while you enjoy your car the way it is. Then do the swap.