TRAXION

Lets start a discussion

In the 730 and in the TBI comp (747 and cousins) there is a Pump Shot table vs TPS. Now - I'm aware that this acts analogous to an accelerator pump on a carb application. The greater the values the more fuel injected? Right? At least that's how its been explained to me and that is what my experience has shown.

What I don't understand is the layout of this table in the 730. One column is 'TPS' and the other column is 'Multiplier'. The TPS column goes from 0 to 50. The anht_hac.pdf document which is the disassembly of the 730 code (730 code bible) is...
;-------------------------------------------------
; ASYNC FACTOR vs DIFF TPS
; (PUMP SHOT)
;
; 03-12-1996 Dissassemby of ANHT Lines= 17
;
; TBL = 128 * MULT
;--------------------------------------------------
ORG $0543 ; MULT %TPS
;----------------------------------
L8543 FCB 128 ; 1.000 0.0
L8544 FCB 128 ; 1.000 3.1
L8545 FCB 128 ; 1.000 6.3
L8546 FCB 80 ; 0.625 9.4
L8547 FCB 48 ; 0.375 12.5
L8548 FCB 48 ; 0.375 15.6
L8549 FCB 48 ; 0.375 18.8
L854A FCB 48 ; 0.375 21.9
L854B FCB 32 ; 0.250 25.0
L854C FCB 32 ; 0.250 28.1
L854D FCB 32 ; 0.250 31.3
L854E FCB 32 ; 0.250 34.4
L854F FCB 32 ; 0.250 37.5
L8550 FCB 32 ; 0.250 40.6
L8551 FCB 32 ; 0.250 43.8
L8552 FCB 32 ; 0.250 46.9
L8553 FCB 32 ; 0.250 50.0
;--------------------------------------------------

In the Multiplier column you can enter values from 0 to 100. Now, in the stock TPI BIN the lower TPS numbers as shown above and as shown when I view a stock bin in TunerCat have Multipliers of 100.0 (for %TPS 0.0, 3.1, and 6.3)
1) %TPS is what exactly? It says %TPS but what does this really mean? Does it mean the % difference from one throttle opening to another throttle opening?
2) The Multiplier multiplies what? Injector Pulse Width?
3) The numbers in the table almost look reversed to me because I would think that the greater the %TPS then the greater the multiplier would be. For example - the greater the throttle opening (which I am thinking is %TPS) then the more air enters and therefore the more fuel is needed. Any comments?

Tim



------------------
TRAXION's 1990 IROC-Z
Best Time = 12.587 @ 107.97mph (1.710 60ftr) on the long runner setup.
All Natural. No Force. No Drugs. Stock Bottom End. Stock Body Panels. Stock Wheels. No Weight Reduction.
Gunning for NA 11's with the MiniRam II and Hooker LT Headers.
-=ICON Motorsports=-
Moderator: PROM board at thirdgen.org

Mark305TBI

What I don't understand about that table (on TBI cars) is that the table is labled "Pump shot vs. differential TPS" which implies it should be the amount of fuel added for rate of change of the TPS. But instead, the table just has a "%TPS" column and a "usec added" that corresponds with the "%TPS" column. Where's the rate of change stuff? Am I the only one that this doesn't make any sense to?

-Mark W.
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/al3/thegreycar">'88 SC Camaro w/ 305 TBI</A>

Mark305TBI

P.S.
That's on TunerCAT...

-Mark W.
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/al3/thegreycar">'88 SC Camaro w/ 305 TBI</A>

FastBroker

Mark, I think the %TPS on the table is over x amount of data loops the computer does, which basically just means over x period of time. Ie, 25% change over 10 computer loops, which could be 100 milliseconds, or something like that... Not sure if I'm explaining it right. sorry.

justme

Hate to bring back an old thread but I found this at the bottom of the list from my search and was wondering if any one could tell me what the Pulse & Multiplier numbers do in the "Accel Enrich Delta TPS PW Factor Vs. Async Pulse" as well as the TPS & Multiplier numbers do in the "Accel Enrich Delta TPS Multiplier Vs. Delta TPS" Surely as old as this subject is someone has figured this out. Or maybe I missed the informative post about it all.

Grumpy

The TPS is the % change in TPS.
Or Delta TPS.

On the example you showed the was a fairly healthy tip in amount of fuel, and progressively leaner, which suggests AE based on delta MAP.

Here's the stock TPS settings my stuff is based on.

*-------------------------------------------------------------
* F98 TABLE
* DELTA TPS AE SCALER OF MAX AE PULSE WIDTH -
* TABLE VALUE = MULTIPLIER * 128 -
*-------------------------------------------------------------
F98 FCB 128 ; 0 %DELTA TPS
*::EQU N=E*128 ::
FCB 128 ; 6.25
FCB 128 ; 12.5
FCB 128 ; 18.75
FCB 128 ; 25
FCB 128 ; 31.25
FCB 128 ; 37.5
FCB 128 ; 43.75
FCB 128 ; 50
FCB 128 ; 56.25
FCB 128 ; 62.5
FCB 128 ; 68.75
FCB 128 ; 75
FCB 128 ; 81.25
FCB 128 ; 87.5
FCB 128 ; 93.75
FCB 128 ; 100

*--------------------------------------
* F90 TABLE -
* MAP AE FACTOR -
*--------------------------------------
*::TBL2D,5,2,TBL37,1,'MULT' ::
F90 FCB 4 ; USE 5 VALUE TABLE
FCB 0 ; 0 MAP3B
*::EQU N=E*256 ::
FCB 0 ; 64
FCB 0 ; 128
FCB 0 ; 192
FCB 0 ; 256

So imagine reducing the intake tract restriction.
In this case a biffer turbo, cam, yada, yada.
AND a much larger plenum.
Basically a stock converter.

So, how to you launch are get this all working in unisone?.
In this case you stage against the converter, so there is no delta TPS until you actually hit it when you release the brake and stab the gas, So you have to have enough fuel to cover wetting the walls, and that means alot of fuel right at the min delta TPS values. Then you want an instant of like 13.5 AFR to build EGT and spool the turbo, then as the airflow starts really changing, delta LV8 or delta MAP, bigger numbers as things get lit.


So for delta TPS I wound up with:
*-------------------------------------------------------------
* F98 TABLE -
* DELTA TPS AE SCALER OF MAX AE PULSE WIDTH -
* TABLE VALUE = MULTIPLIER * 128 -
*-------------------------------------------------------------
F98 FCB 170 ; 0 %DELTA TPS
*::EQU N=E*128 ::
FCB 185 ; 6.25
FCB 190 ; 12.5
FCB 195 ; 18.75
FCB 200 ; 25
FCB 200 ; 31.25
FCB 200 ; 37.5
FCB 195 ; 43.75
FCB 195 ; 50
FCB 190 ; 56.25
FCB 190 ; 62.5
FCB 185 ; 68.75
FCB 185 ; 75
FCB 185 ; 81.25
FCB 185 ; 87.5
FCB 185 ; 93.75
FCB 185 ; 100

Delta MAP
*--------------------------------------
* F90 TABLE -
* MAP AE FACTOR -
*--------------------------------------
*::TBL2D,5,2,TBL37,1,'MULT' ::
F90 FCB 4 ; USE 5 VALUE TABLE
FCB 15 ; 0 MAP3B
FCB 35 ; 64
FCB 45 ; 128
FCB 45 ; 192
FCB 50 ; 256

Oh and for anyone curious I used these same entries in MAP vs MAF, and Batch vs SEFI.

And even with an initial delta TPS of 170, I still have to play with the VE tables to get the fuel to follow the air quick enough.

For me it's easy to detect a entry difference of 3 (h).
It takes alot of time to get this stuff correct.
Without a WB it would take ages to get this razor sharp, and to some folks it matters.

And if you play with vaporization experiments, you have to account for the AE corections based on CTS.

Small changes, take notes.
You can zip right past optimim, and wind up with the ol too much timing with too much fuel deal.

Off road use only.
Just stuff that's worked for me, your results will vary.

justme

A couple of questions: I noticed when I am cruising and tip in the throttle, it richens up for a split sec. and then leans out. Would this mean I still need some VE work or should I be playing with the AE stuff? Now, am I understanding this right that In the "Accel Enrich. Delta TPS Multiplier Vs. Delta TPS" the TPS setting is the % change in TPS? So if I was bring up the car on the tranny brake and was at say 50% throttle and stomp the gas to 100% then I am in the multiplier value for the 50%TPS setting since I have just changed 50%.

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

The Holley C950 has a table like that. From what the basic tuning manual says, at higher throttle positions you need less AE.

Example: my 5.0 Mustang has a one big-*** throttle plate. THEY say that this needs alot of AE when it first opens. After that it doesn't need as much. So they reduce the amount of AE depending on where the throttle started at the time of change.

Maybe that is what this is?

justme

So changing the multiplier values is basically like changing the shape of an accelerator pump cam on a carb? You can make it come in later or earlier in the tip in? So the 0 value in the percent TPS is signifying from 0 to 3.1 % TPS change?

Grumpy

If you look at the cross sectional area of the butterfly as it first opens it exposes the intake to atmoshpere very quickly, I beleive the numbers are like at 30% opening the butterfly is at like 60% of its potential airflow.

If you look at the TPS AE table I posted it reflects that.

Grumpy

Best way is making a few small changes and see how things feel, or look on a WB if you have access to one.

87_TA

Grumpy,
Do you use a/e even if RPM is being reduced? Like when converter locks,there is a sudden change in map losing vacuum.
Cause when my converter locks and rpms dromp to about 1500
map 85+kpa I go lean for an instant.
Would A/E VS. MAP delta apply to that?

Also another question you were saying about getting on the converter before launch, delta TPS,would that be any change.

What im trying to say is if you are at 15% throttle and mash it ,
does the first values still appy,or are you further down the table being that the change was not from 0% tps.


Sorry if you don't understand what i'm saying,sometimes I feel I can't express what im trying to say in few enough words.

V8Astro Captain

iTrader: (1)

Aaahhhhh...very interesting!

Grumpy

Tuning is not an exact science.
What maybe a tip in hesitation to me might be a chuggle to someone else.

That's why I harp on using notes, and experimenting.

Until you play with all the tables enough to have complete notes on what it all means to YOU, you will from time to time feel lost. Happens to the best.

You can only get staging the way you want it by playing with the variables, and seeing what works for you.

On the AE LB8 MAP you can move in steps of 10, and the TPS even 20 and just get an idea of how it works. I'm talking hex values here.