AGood2.8

SSBC (Stainless STeel Brake Corp.) Is now offering a lighterweight aluminum dual piston caliper as a direct replacement for the smaller 10.5" rotor cars.

Why is this good?- AutoX guys don't need huge rotors for cooling- just good pad surface area and even pressure applied. The 10.5" rotors are smaller and lighter (less unsprung weight) and have less rotation mass- I argue that they are much better suited for that little edge in autoX ( If roadracing- go to the big brakes, end of subject.)

These new Calipers are lighter and apply more even pressure that the stock Iron sigle piston calipers. Only problem right now?- they are only making "fronts". Hopefully they will offer a rear replacement caliper someday soon, the stock iron caliper rears are the pain in the.....well, rear.
http://www.ssbrakes.com/products/det...maro&year=1987

Hg

Dude, that is PHAT... so us guys with the base setup could just get those calipers and the SSBC "Short Stop" rotors or some powerslot rotors and call it good, right?

Dewey316

do you know how much larger the pad area is?

i say this because, i can lock my tires at will ONCE just fine, the problem that plagues these cars is the fade, and i don't see just a little better caliper helping that problem at all, with the small rotor/surface area, it is still going to heat up very fast.

not trying to start an argument, but while i see the benifits of a better caliper, it doesn't address the real problem that at least my car has.

machinist

The piston area for these new calipers is 7.068. 4 x 1.767= 7.068

For a stock 2.375 diameter caliper it's 8.86 That's 4.430 x 2 = 8.86 So you are going down 1.792 sq. inches in effective piston area per side, and a decrease of 3.584 sq. inches total in front piston area. That's a major reduction in clamping force.

I agree they have more even pressure on the pads, but other than esthetic value and lightening your wallet a bunch, not much more. I don't beleive the more even clamping force from dual pistons makes up to the loss in piston area/clamping force in this instance.

For the money it's probably better to check into C4, C5, LS1, or other front brake upgrades.

AGood2.8

Dewey, I don't have any problem at ALL with fade on my car as it sits- During AutoX, My brakes get better with heat. I stated above that if I were to run this car on a big track then I would definately go to larger rotors- heat would be aproblem at those speeds and temps- But for street and autoX I great (remember though, I have a lightweight V6 car.)

Mach/alloy, Clamping force is not a problem, just press the pedal harder and install an adjust the proportioning valve for front to rear bias if unbalance is ever a problem- with that small of a change on this small of a caliper-However- I assure you it won't be a problem. Why?- more dispersed backing plate pressure will easily make up for less piston surface area.Almost half the single piston caliper's "piston" is not even touching the pad backing plate. Pressure is only focused on the center of the pads.

machinist

Well according to the engineer at wilwood I'm working on a brake project with, humans are much better at judging distance (leg movement) than judging differences in pressure. With less piston area, the master cylinder will move less, but require more pressure to apply the brakes.

Yes you can simply apply more pressure, but at the working pressure of a brake system, 3.584 sq. inches less piston area is significant. The pedal will be much firmer due to decreased piston area. I know this first hand because I switched to the C4 brakes and my pedal is much harder to push down because of decreased piston area. But that's made up for with the 12" rotors increased leverage verses the stock 10.5".

I'm not all that sold on the more even pressure making up for the loss in piston area. I just did the front brakes on my 3/4 ton pickup and for grins just measured the pad thickness at the ends and middle of the pad. There was no more than .0095 difference across the entire pad. I'm sure the backing plate thickness will vary a little, but it was still surprising that there was so little difference in thickness across the pad. On the pads I pulled off my camaro when I installed the C4 brakes, the difference is a little more. About .0018 difference and it's thinner in the middle of the pad, and thicker at the ends of it.

And, in F Stock (SCCA) there is no way to use this caliper. Also not in E Street Prepared. You can update/back date on a family of cars, in ESP, but not change the caliper if it wasn't installed by the factory on that family of car. I'm in C Prepared and the rules state: "Brakes are free. No carbon fiber rotors are allowed". So unless you are doing only fun runs or move up to CP, you really can't use these calipers in auto-x. And at the price of almost $400, it makes much more sense to go to the C4 or LS1 brakes for the same money. Yes they look trick, but not as trick as the finned C4 calipers and 12" rotors do. And, from the info that SS bakes has on their web page, they are only touting "Quick Change" as the benefits of this caliper. Not increased braking, etc. You would think if they can prove that more piston/backing plate contact area will result in a performance gain, then why don't they mention it?

Anyway, this is just an observation on my part. I'm more of a function type of guy than looks. Just ask Dewey. (He drove my car at a recent auto-x) My car isn't a head turner by any stretch of the imagination, but I think he kinda liked steering with the throttle and the way it handled. I believe he also liked the difference in braking in my car verses his with the stock 10.5 brakes.

Anyway this is a very good find on your part for our cars. Myself, I'm sticking with the big brake stuff. To me it's the performance numbers and bang for the buck more than anything. Guess that's why I'm a machinist by trade.

Justins86bird

Do you know what the c4/1le area is?

machinist

I don't remember what the piston size is for the C4/1LE is off hand. I'm sure it's mentioned somewhere, so I'll look it up and get back to you.

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Edit:

Ok, found the piston diameter in the LS1 thread.

The C4 piston is 1.5" in diameter. That's 1.767 sq. inches in area. So 1.767 x 4 =7.068

So stock is 8.86 - 7.068 = 1.792 sq. inches less piston area for C4 calipers. But, you also have the 12" rotors that more than make up for this.

Hmmm, Justin, you brought up a good point here. In looking at the 3.584 less piston area of the new SS calipers and comparing them to the 1.767 less area of the C4 calipers verses stock, I realize that your pedal effort will be much higher with the SS calipers. My pedal effort went up significantly with the C4 calipers verses the stock ones, and there is only a 1.767 sq. inches difference in area. The SS calipers lose over 100% more piston area than the C4 calipers lose over stock, so this does not look like a good idea at all to me.

I also have the braking torque equation to calculate braking torque with different size rotors, but unfortunately my math skills aren't quite good enough to figure that one out. Anyone here want to take a crack at it for me?

AGood2.8

O.K. You git me on the ESP class rule book- didn't know that in ESP- Hard to keep up with rules I all the different racing associations.

As for measuring pad width? pads will always measure very evenly no matter what the backing plate pressure is(1,2 4 or six pistons) because they float in contact with the rotor even when not pressurised. Even backing plate pressure accounts for everything when it comes to performance. More even contact surface will grip the rotor smoothly without a smaller section of the pad taking the blunt of the heat and force then locking- you will attain a greater sweet spot in braking - Take a rotor on a spindle and spin it by hand- now with one fingertip only, try to stop it. Now take three fingers with the same pressure, Then take five fingers (well four and a thumb) and try it. Obviously the roptor will stop smoother and quicker with the more fingers used (surface area). Take those five fingers and use heavy pressure in the center finger and lighter pressure on the end fingers- compare that to using all five with equal pressure (this off couse stopps faster and smoother- and most importantly- disperses the heat betwween the fingers rather than getting only one or two finger hot of the five. (even friction disapates heat though the pad surface and prevents fade- thus allowing the caliper pressure not to be clamped as hard to compensate for fade and thus going from no brakes to locked brakes (poor sweet spot)

Justins86bird

Thanks for the info. My pedal is alot firmer too, but I credit part of that to the new flex hoses compared to the 16 year old stock ones.

Justins86bird

On the socal forum, someone drilled the hub section on the rotors to make them alot lighter.

machinist

I already had the earl's lines, so mine was a direct comparision of stock calipers verses the C4's.

I understand AGood2.8 illustration about the fingers on the rotor idea, but losing approx. 20% of your front brake piston area can't be good. You pedal effort will be substantially higher and the difference in piston contact area just won't make up for that in my humble opinion.

If the new calipers made up for the 20% loss in piston area and were better that stock, wouldn't SS Brakes would tout that fact? All they say about the calipers is that they are "Quick change".

If all I were doing is changing the pads out, after I get the wheels off it only takes a couple of minutes to change the pads on a stock caliper. Saving a couple of minutes isn't worth 4 LARGE dead presidents to me.

JERRYWHO

The stock 1LE rotor was 26lbs and you can cut them down to 19lbs.

Link to them https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...threadid=97627


Or you can do aluminum hubs and bolt on rotors at 13lbs.

Link to them https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=154139

Jerry

Justins86bird

Ah, didn't know.

Couldn't you adjust the amount of pressure needing to be applied to the brake pedal by changing the pivot point of the brake pedal? Of course you have to make it so the brake pedal travel doesn't become excessive.

Justins86bird

Thats some pretty good savings!

machinist

Here is some info on brake pedal ratios. It's been awhile since I've read it, but hopefully it will answer your questions. There is also a lot of other very good info on braking requirements, master cylinders, etc. Take a few minutes and read through all the brake articles. This was a series of braking tech from Car Craft awhile back.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/76680/index4.html

machinist

Take a look at this idea on brake rotor lightening. I'm not sure if I like it or not. Kinda looks "riced" to me. But just for grins I called the people that sell these and they just take a stock rotor and throw it on a CNC mill and profile it to that shape.

I can easily do this to rotors, but to me it seems like you are cutting down the friction area of the rotor. And then there is that "riced look" thing that kinda stops me from doing this. Maybe I'll warm up to it, but gotta get over the pics of them installed on the imports. I'm not into "FF" (fast and furiuos)

Hey, did you guys know they are selling "FF" floor mats and steering wheel covers


http://www.thebrakeman.com/convo_e_m_

MrDude_1

they make wave rotors for sportbikes too


they work AWSOME.
you can FEEL how much lighter they are when you turn, and they provide real nice feedback thru the brakes on the bike.. even when you're using the same pads as you were before the swap....


also, i dont see what the whole piston ratio prob is.... if you change it and are worried about the pedal pressure, why not switch master cyls to one that has somthing closer to what you're looking for? didnt GM make ALOT of cyls with the same 2 bolt mounting design??

CrazyHawaiian

Does anyone know is SSBC makes dual piston rear calipers? Or maybe a combo of using the front caliper on the rear and the seperate E-Brake thingy?

machinist

CamarosRUS

so did we ever decide if upgrading to dual piston calipers would benefit us at all? i defenitly think so, im no pro by any means but more clamping force just seems to stop better, correct? then upgrade to some good pads that LIKE lots of heat and you should be set...

MAIN QUESTION:
is there any other 2 piston DIRECT REPLACEMENT calipers that will fit our cars?????

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Sorry to bring this back after nine months of last reply post, but has anyone actually used these calipers and can give us some comparisons between them and the factory single pistons ? Yes, I did search before posting this......thanks.

Bill E.

Jetmeck

iTrader: (3)

Anybody ?

palric

iTrader: (1)

I just swapped some out. Got a set real cheap so figured ynot?

kep tthe stock 10.5s, already had high end pads ceramic something or another they worked great with the stock calipers.

The SSBCs are a dead easy swap no doubt about it.

But I think I have to hit the brakes harder to do the same thing the stockers used to do with alot less effort.

So far my impression is under 30-40mph no difference in fact probably like the stock calipers better (even if they are ugly).

At hwy speeds the SSBCs bring the car down faster with less effort. Played with them all afternoon and they fade less too. After doing a hard stop I could hold my hand on the caliper it was only warm and not hot. Now that was unexpected.

I am not all that impressed otherwise. Unless you get these real cheap I wouldn't fork out the cash. Better off to go after the big brake upgrade IMO.