lavamadness

Currently I've got two 10" Alpine Type-S subs being pushed with 200W RMS each in a sealed single chamber enclosure that's about 2 cu ft. I've got things sounding okay, but I'd like the bass to have a bit more punch. Right now I don't want to get another amp, so I was wondering what my options were. Are there some new sub I can get that will be an improvement over what I've got with the power I have available? I'd still like to have decent SQ as well.

I'm kind of partial to the Infinity Kappa Perfects, but I'm not sure if 200W wouldn't be underpowering them. Though I could run one at 400W.

Someone also mentioned Image Dynamics to me. The ID V.3 or the IDQs.

Does anyone have any comments/suggestions/opinions?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Sound quality, SPL, or both? What's your budget?

I think the Image Dynamics subs are a great suggestion... much better than the Infinity stuff. I'm also partial to Resonant Engineering and Adire stuff. Since you're dealing with low power levels, I'd stay away from the super high x-max small box stuff that requires a ton of power due to low efficiency. The Shiva is a very efficient sub, so it'll get loud with small amps. Cerwin Vega "Vega" stuff is also very efficient, but requires a massive ported box.

lavamadness

Thanks for the response!

SQ vs SPL... well I want both of course. I'm fairly happy with the SQ I have now, so if I could do something to maintain that but boost the SPL, that would make me happy. I don't know how the Type S's compare to other subs for SQ though.

Budget wise, up to $200 a sub. If cost gets too crazy, then I kind of defeated the purpose of avoiding a new amp.

I also don't have the tools/location to do work on the box myself, so the less I have to modify that the better.

I understand all these things are limiting me. If I can't get much better that what I have now, then I'm okay with that. But if I can, I certainly want to.

ghettosmurf

solobaric L7....they sound real good even in small areas w/not too much power...

edit:usually i would say something like JL w6v2's or the Infinity's but the JL is way more than 200 and you already put infinity...you could even get an alpin type R or type X

lavamadness

Wouldn't I be severely under powering those subs?

ghettosmurf

well depending on how you have ur set up...the hatch should magnify the sound volume. If you were to stick w/ ONE solobaric or ONE type R....and ran what was it 400rms? you would be good...then the infinity kappas and things like that sound real good, and wouldnt be underpowering that...

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I've got to disagree on the Kicker idea. Their square subs require a ridiculously large enclosure to get a flat response. Their 12" requires something nuts like 5 cubic feet to get a q of .707.

onebadwagon

so you just recommended some high end subs to be run on 1/2 or LESS power than recommended. get real, subs like those aren't going to do what he wants to for needs.


i would look into something like the memphis M Class,they are relatively cheap and sound very good in sealed boxes.

Jim is probably right about the adire stuff, but i've never heard it so i can't say.
I've never been thrilled with ID stuff, but it's all in the application.

chio987

hey Jim85IROC, have u heard a elemental design sub?? if so what model size and how do u like it. right now i'm at a toss up between an EA and RE sub. from what i've read the EA is really good with SQ and the RE has a little more SPL

9177

With 200 watts I would look at some jl w3 series. Unless your going to get l7 8's kicker is a bad choice for the box size plus if I read right he is looking for 10s so he doesn't need to make a new box.

As for ed vs re, I am a little partial to ed for obvious reasons but both are good subs. I have heard 2 re setups using XXX subs but both were geared for spl but it still sounded pretty decent. the biggest thing I like about my e12a is it can use a pretty small sealed box and still sound very good. Plus the lower lines don't need super huge ampounts of power.

lavamadness

Most of these brands I've never heard of before. How do the following subs compare to each other as far as SQ and SPL go (keeping in mind that I have only 200W rms for them)?

Image Dynamics IDQ (250W rms)
Image Dynamics ID V.3 (250W rms, 450W max)
Resonant Engineering RE (175W rms, 250W max)
Adire Shiva
JL W3 (300W rms)
Alpine Type-S

onebadwagon: what didn't you like about ID?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

ID, Adire, RE and a couple others are considered to be among the best subs available. Most feel that the XXX and Brahma provide SPL that can compete with the W7s, but with better sound quality. Likewise, ID has a very good reputation for sound-quality oriented subs. Other brands known for sound quality would include Focal, Quart and some others.

But... out of all those, Adire and RE are going to provide the best bang for the buck. $125 shivas, $350 Brahmas & XXXs, and now the under-$250 Koda line from Adire, which uses the XBL^2 motor structure in a sub designed for sound quality that still has an 18mm x-max.

lavamadness

How about SPL?

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

most of the same, plus you get SPL-specific subs from RE, Kicker, MTX and a million others. But, those subs are designed specifically to produce substantial SPLs when burped, and that's pretty much all they're good for. When you play music through them, it's likely to sound like a retard banging on a drum.

chio987

looking at this site i can't deside what i want. this guy looked at an RE and EA i was looking more towards the EA but i haven't heard either one.... so idunno...has anyone here heard both??

lavamadness

Got ya. Definitely not looking for that. I still want it to sound decent.

Right now I'm leaning toward the ID V.3 because I've found a couple of places that sell them for a good price. ($130 at sounddomain.com). The Kodas are rather pricy, and I couldn't find a Shiva 10" anywhere (are the magnets as small as they look?) I couldn't find any RE sites with prices.

If I went with the IDs, what kind of improvement will I get over my current subs? How noticeable? I'm assuming SQ will be as good or better... but how about SPL over the Type-Ss I have? It would suck to buy new subs, and it not make much difference. Unless the SQ was night and day, I think it'd just be the SPL i'd notice.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

There aren't any 10" shivas. They're 12". Their magnets aren't all that huge, but they don't need to be. Magnets are mostly marketing BS. Dan Wiggins (CEO of Adire) even said himself that the Brahma has a triple stacked magnet because nobody would buy them with just a single magnet. The magnet only needs to be long enough to ensure that the voice coil gets equal magnetic energy throughout its entire stroke (i.e. x-max). The brahma is a bit different because the XBL^2 technology uses a short voice coil, but even with the Shiva, a bigger magnet really wouldn't do a lot of good.

ghettosmurf

okay badwagon....that was just ****** gay...he can use something like a type R or something if he just wanted to use 1 sub...one 10 in these cars, because of the hatch design is enough to sound great. So obviously if he bridges his amp just to 1 channel he is going to be having 400 watts RMS...and one quality sub is better than 2 **** subs...

onebadwagon

you recommend a w6v2, how expensive is that? it seems he has a budget to work around, stop being a jerkoff.


if you don't mind buying off of the internet, i have heard NOTHING but good about adire, from local friends and online, so that may be a good choice.

lavamadness

If a single more expensive sub with 400W would be better than 2 subs I could get that would run with 200W, then I'm open to exploring that option.

onebadwagon

two cheaper subs MAY be louder, but one nicer sub will almost definitely sound better.



adam

lavamadness

I'm so frustrated right now I want to rip all the stereo equipment out of my car and just trash it.

I picked up two 10" Image Dynamics V.3 subs and put them in (with no other changes). My first impression was that they were pretty smooth sounding, but lacked the punch of my two Type S subs. But since I've had them, I'm starting to think they really really suck. It's like the only reason they sound smooth is because they don't have any volume.

Now everyone seems to have nothing but good things to say about Image Dynamics. So I need some ideas as to what might be wrong, how I can test that that is what is wrong, and how to fix it.

And please... don't tell me I need more power. I realize more power is better, but I've heard decent sounding systems with less power than I have right now. I'm not trying for anything insane or to rattle windows down the block.

Each sub is now in it's own chamber which is about .65 cu ft (ID recommends .4 to .8).

I've tried it with just one sub hooked up on it's own, and no difference. So they weren't out of phase.

nibleT

check your wiring, donno what else to tell you. if you want a bit more punch, try putting a brick in each chamber.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

Not too many people complain about the output abilities of the ID subs. They may not have quite as much output as some other brands, but they shouldn't be far behind.

I would investigate other possibilities, like box size, box quality, amp compatability, etc.

lavamadness

Yeah, that's just it... people can't be raving about ID stuff and it all being like this.

What do I need to look for as far as box quality other than it not being air tight? As far as box size goes, ID recommends .4 - .8, and the boxes I have are .65. Not sure what to do about that... I could fill them to see how they sound with a smaller volume.

What about amp compatibility? It's a Kicker KX800.4. They should be getting 200w rms each. Other than that, what do I look for?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm at my wits end. With the money I've put into this system, I should be enjoying it more than the Canadian Tire bass tube and Koss speakers I had in my old Hyundai Pony.

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

If you're smack in the middle of their box recomendations, although it may not be completely optimal, it should be sufficient. It sounds like you're feeding them sufficient power. Have you checked that the amp gain and crossover settings are correct? Is the power/ground wire sufficient for the amp? Have you tried a different sub with all other things staying the same?

lavamadness

When I first installed the IDs, the only change was making the single camber box dual chambered, and replacing the Alpines with the IDs. I didn't touch the xovers or the gains or any other settings with the deck. They were much quieter. For example, with the deck volume at 20, the Alpine's would punch pretty decently. This was a good for just cruising around town or whatever. (23-25 if I was on the highway with the windows down or just wanted it nice and loud.) When I put the IDs in, my first impressions were that they were pretty smooth sounding, but quite obviously not as loud as the Alpines. I was turning it up to 25+ to get anything out of them (and by that time the mids/highs were getting to be way too loud).

Since then, I've played with the settings on the deck, turned the gain up a bit, but it just starts sounding worse. (Increasing the gain with the Alpines made them sound worse too.)

Now I suppose I could lower the gain for the components, so I can turn it up to 25 or more without them getting too loud, but that doesn't sound like the right way to go. The decks max volume is 35.

Granted, I haven't put the Alpines in to the new dual chambered box to see how they sound in it. I'm rather hesitant to because I don't want to keep putting new screw holes in the box lid. But if it shed any light on things it'd be worth it.

BTW.. the xover is at about 80hz. The amps power and ground wires are 4ga, and I have the battery grounded to the chassis with a 2ga wire.

NEEDAZ

What HU, make and model? Hows the sound quality of JUST the subs? I ask because a bad ground inside the HU at the RCA output would give you low volume and some background noise. This noise may be vary low, and even harder to hear from a sub. You can check the RCA ground with an ohm meter, 0 ohms to the chassis is good, but 10-100 ohms may be normal for your HU. It's hard to tell what is going on with something like this with out hearing it. I don't think this is your problem but the box should be OK at the midway of there specs. I know you said that the phase must be good, but have you physically checked/looked at the tracer on the wire.



{edit}Beat me to the post. An Alpine should be 0 ohms to ground unless that model has a unbalanced output (not at all common).

lavamadness

The HU is Kenwood KDC-X569.

I haven't rechecked the wiring of the subs, but I was super careful about it when I was doing it. But I know it's not a phase issue because I tried it with just a single sub hooked up, and the problem was still there.

I'm not sure what you mean by the sound quality of "JUST the subs". You mean with the components not playing? I can check the ground of the RCAs easy enough however. Do you just check at the RCA outputs at the HU?

NEEDAZ

You can, that will test just the ground at the output. If you check the ground (out side) of the end of the RCA cables that will test both the ground at the output and the RCA cables ground shielding connections. I just checked the schematic for that HU and you should have 0 ohms to ground. You can use the chassis or the black wire in the harness.

By "JUST the subs" i mean not how the components sound. I was going off the assumption that you have the components on the deck's internal amp. The sound of that would not be affected by a bad ground at the RCA outputs.

Like I said, not real likely but can't heart to try. I see this more with Pioneer then Kenwood.

lavamadness

Have been playing around with things a bit (adding polyfill, making sure everything was sealed really well), but still nothing. So I called Image Dynamics up, and their tech support said it had to do with the frequency reponses of the two different subs. The ID subs are designed to play more lower frequencies than the Alpines, so the IDs would tend to have a more well rounded sound, but be a bit quieter because they're playing more frequencies. So I'm satisfied with that. I had only told him they weren't as loud as my alpines, and he explained what differences I'd expect to hear between the two subs, which were exactly what I'm experiencing.

HamiltonAudio

where are you getting a brahma for $350? is that US dollars? if its canadian, steer me to the location. I'll take 4 12" MKIII's (when they're available)

bmoney

HamiltonAudio

there tends not to be a huge difference in overall frequency response between subs of a given size. the difference is in the enclosure. clearly you don't have the right box my friend. i'm not familiar with the ID product line of late, but you may want to consider modelling a vented design.

I did this with a pair of Pioneer SPL12's. They were in a smaller (but still recommended) sealed enclosure, and sounded decent. I modelled a nominally larger vented design, and it looked substantially better on paper, so I tried it. The customer was blown away with the difference....couldn't understand how a box change could yeild such a big difference. but it does.....take a look!!

bmoney

Jim85IROC

iTrader: (2)

I don't speak canadian. That's US pricing.

lavamadness

Unfortunately I don't have the tools, time, or skill to play around with different boxes on my own to see what works and what doesn't. I don't know of a shop I'd feel comfortable taking it to around here. Some of their repsonses to previous questions have left me rolling my eyes.

ddn69

well from what I seen on the site theyre free air/low air space subs. If Im looking at the ones u bought...Airspace shouldnt be a problem. Try tuning the amp and the head unit...Also if your not running on a subwoofer channel it makes a big difference. I went from a jensen HU with rear channel 6-9 subs on the channel to a 300.00 alpine unit with mp3/sub channel and it sounded 100x better. Also on your HU there should be bass controls and such. I know the ones I have on mine make differences in sound. Look into that cause it seems your wiring, airspace, installation seems perfect.

Let us know once again.

nate

HamiltonAudio

I knew that price was WAY too good. oh well...

bmoney

lavamadness

ddn69 - yeah, the volume for the subs ID recommends is 0.4-0.8 cubic feet. And my box is 0.65 per sub. And the subs are using the sub preouts from my HU.

I've played around the amp and HU settings a fair bit. The only way i've been able to get comparable volume as been to turn the HU up higher, or turn the gain up higher. They sound like crap (like the gains are turned up :P), and even then, they don't give me that punch the alpine's had.

onebadwagon

you have that confused, a sub designed to work in a small sealed enclosure is the opposite of a free air sub, which is designed to use a large "sealed" chamber, like the trunk of a vehicle as an enclosure.



adam

HamiltonAudio

you beat me to it they are quite the opposite actually. and you'll be hard pressed to find a true IB (infinite baffle) designed sub nowadays.

don't forget about the overall Q of the system! just because the sheet says it'll work in 0.4 cubic feet doesn't mean it'll sound good in that box. take the time to model it (or have someone knowledgable model it for you) and see where it works the best.

often times I find after modelling a box, you see the nicer curve comes in WAY different than what the mfg recommends. and thats OK, since the mfg tends to recommend a fatter, higher Q design to please the "masses".

bmoney