spades

Been thinking recently of building a 400 from scratch to replace the worn out 350 truck motor I have now. Made another thread asking about suspension changes needed for a BBC swap, but thats just another option I might look into. So, what do you guys think? Would it be worthwhile to plant a 400, or simply go all out and find a 454?

cuisinartvette

Id do the 454 if given the chance. They can take a beating and dont need expensive parts for the bottom end...they are tough

redneckjoe

+1!

Restrorob

iTrader: (7)

I'd say it depends on how you plan on using the car ?

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

A BB 400? Are you talking about a 396 bored over?

If I were going through a BB swap, I'd go for the cubes every time. Especially since the 454 will fit in the engine compartment exactly like the 400 would...

spades

Sorry, meant to specify a 400sb.

Confuzed1

iTrader: (4)

Of course, a 400 sbc will bolt right in with no suspension mods needed, no special expensive exhaust....and if you don't mind reusing the stock crank and rods, the cheapest route. With the right heads and cam, it'll make gobs of torque....but not as much power as a built 454 of course (I'm talking NA of course).

If I had a tired 350, I'd honestly go the 383 route.

spades

My big thing is, everybody and they're mother around here has either a 350 or 383 in their camaros. However, I've seen zero 427/454 third gens in my area. And only a couple with the 400sb. I want something different, but I'm working on a bare bones budget right now. I make $9/hr, and fitting this in with wife, four kids, and a house payment is gonna be... well let's just say "tight" is the understatement of the year.

How much does a decent 400 block run for these days? I'm only finding a few, and they're all still running, but out of my price range. Plus I want to build it myself and make sure everything is to my personal specs.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

Given your budget situation, I'd rather hear more about what's worn out in your 350.

Rings, bearings, cam, Vortec heads and intake, are bound to cost less than a 400 or BBC swap. If you have to bore the cylinders, buy new pistons, and have the crank turned, that will increase the cost, but most likely you'd have to do that with any used larger engine you get, anyway.

I know "everybody" has a 350 or 383. So what?

You didn't mention LS1 - now, if you want to be "different", and have a great running car...

(I guess I'm "nobody" because I don't have a 350 or 383 in my car {and my mother passed away 4 years ago}. I can assure you, though, that I didn't go LS to be "different".)

spades

I really didn't mean any disrespect to anyone with a 350/383. It just isn't what I really want. And this will be stretched out over a year or so, which will help tremendously with budgeting. Also, this is my daily driver, and I really can't afford to be without car right now while waiting on machine work. Again, sorry if I came off offensive. This is probably all stuff I should've put in the first post, heh.

GICATA

I put a 406 (400SB + .030) in my T/A and I love it. Loads of torque to roll away from stoplights in second gear and move down the expressway very quickly.
Finding one in decent shape can be a trick though.

spades

I've never given the LS series any real thought. From what I was told, it was just a slightly dressed up 350 that had almost no shareable parts. Also, I've heard they won't take a carb, only FI. I am HORRIBLE with wiring, and injection would probably cause my brain to melt down. I respect people that can do FI, but I'm happier with a carb. Now, I haven't done any real research on my own, so if I'm wrong please say so. I'm looking at the wiki site right now, but I'd be glad to hear anything you'd like to share.


Wow, had no idea it was multiple displacements. I could be interested if they're carb compatible.

DeltaElite121

lol, "dressed up" 350.. not quite.. and yes, they will take a carb all day long provided you buy the right manifold kit for it.

A simple Google search will provide just about every answer that you need to LS swaps (seriously, there's PAGES of info on every type of swap out there). There's nothing "new" with them these days, as they are very common swaps at this point which also means they're much more affordable than they used to be if you've got some cash saved up.

If I was on a budget and wanted to keep all my existing parts (or most of them, anyways), I'd do a 383 stroker. If I was starting from scratch, I'd definitely do an LS motor.

five7kid

iTrader: (14)

I'd say the information is better in the LS1 swap sticky in the top section of this forum than what you'd come up with a Google search.

But, a daily driver probably isn't the best candidate for an LS swap unless you have backup. Took me about 4 weeks of evenings and weekends (admittedly not working on it every evening, and hit a couple of snags, but still hit it pretty hard), and it was my 2nd LS swap into a 3rd gen.

If you can spread the cost out over a year, and have an engine fully built and ready to install before you pulled your current engine, then that would probably be a better bet.

(By the way, no disrespect noted. Just being a wiseguy again. My bad.)

spades

The 350 in it now is still good, no real problems outside of valve seals and an oil pan gasket has started to push out. This well definitely stay in the car until I have a fully built, ready to roll engine.

spades

So, I've done some searching. I would LOVE an LS7, but there the issue with the SMALL FORTUNE I'd need simply to buy the block. Cheapest I've found so far is $2700, which is far out of my budget. So, anybody got an old 427 or 454 block they wanna sell for cheap? Ain't gotta be pretty, just no cracks and stuff, lol.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

You really need to ask and been honest with yourself on what your going to do with this car and the budget you have to work with.

I think the idea of a bigblock is kinda neat but the "cool" will wear off quickly if you plan on doing any driving with it. Gas milage will most likely suck and the handling will be a bit worse because of the extra weight on the front.

spades

I will eventually get another vehicle for a daily driver after the swap, so this will go to a toy. The budget is dependent on time. I decided this is going to be a LONG project, so 1 year minimum. This way, I can work parts in a little at a time.

NemeSS-TyranT

iTrader: (1)

nothing wrong with a good ole 383. plenty of parts to make big hp.
a big block will prolly get single digit mpg. it will make some hp and then some.
400 sb are easy to come by if ur willing to drop a good coin for em. but if ur lookin for a 400 sb on a budget. gonna be tough. i have a friend who collects 400 sbc. he makes his miney back and then some. but the ppl that want those blocks will pay for em and that drives up the price.
prolly make more sense to use a aftermarket block for ur build.
big block cubes and sbc package.
enginekits.com sells some pretty good stroker kits for decent prices

1gary

First off all to find a good 400 core isn't that easy.They are known for a whole host of OEM issues and the circle track guys where blowing them like crazy.Face it,your talking about a thin deck/wall engine that is 40 yrs old or more.

The aftermarket blocks,I just posted about Competition Products running a sale on Sportsman blocks which was some really good pricing which honestly is only a heavy casted OEM style block.A bare block only.

You DON'T SPEND MONEY ON A AFTERMARKET BLOCK TO FILL IT WITH CHEAP JUNK STROKER PARTS..

Go ahead and you buy a block,then fill it on your dime.A reality check comes quick.Are they better??Certainly.They come in different models/costs.

spades

As much as it hurts to say, I don't think a big block is gonna work out. I just don't have the funds.

So, I guess now the best path I can follow is a 383. And now, to the research-mobile!

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

deleted.. sorry.. nm

spades

I corrected that in an earlier post. Meant to say 400 sbc. But, as I've looked around online, even used blocks or either out of my price range, or halfway across the country. The junkyards around here don't have any bbc AT ALL. So, since reality has kindly smacked me upside the head, I've reeled in my plans and decided a 383 is a good compromise. I know for a fact the local scrapyards have SBCs just laying around everywhere. Pretty sure I can find a decent 4 bolt main to start. The reason I haven't pulled the 350 out of my 85 is it's my daily driver. The wife uses the minivan to haul kiddos to school and such, so we only have the one other car. I'm guessing once I'm done with the Camaro, I'll do a small build on the old 350 and put it in an S-10 shell or something like that. Trucks are always useful to have around, lol.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

oops.. i deleted my post before i realized you had responded. my bad... and yeah man... as for SBC... dude, i see them daily for around $250 on CL but they need to be gone through, machined, and all that, but... if you're going to build from scratch, you may as well. and, i admit, i still haven't read the entire post but, why can't you recondition and bore your existing block?

Cosmik Debris

I don't know what the prices are like in your area but when I started a new build I looked at a 383 vs 400 sbc. To buy a 350 and then have the block checked and worked over to build a 383 was only slightly less than buying a new Dart SHP 400, so I went that way instead.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

I totally agree with that.

will cost the same, or more to build vs buy something already built. and generally speaking, companies like dart, know what they are doing, and will put the best parts matched for their purpose rather than

"oh i heard this was good, and i heard that was good" and experimenting with bits and pieces to possibly achieve your goal, but more than likely not getting the power you COULD get by having a company that knows their stuff build it to factory specs with machines and such.


with that said..........

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevy-383-425hp-stroker-motor-with-GM-VORTEC-heads-/290882844494?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43b9f7f74e&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/383-CHEVY-STROKER-MOTOR-465HP-ROLLER-1-8-PRO-STREET-CRATE-ENGINE-SBC-CNC-CAMAR-/271174762886?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f23468186&vxp=mtr
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SMALL-BLOCK-CHEVY-383-STROKER-CRATE-ENGINE-PUMP-GAS-385HP-BIG-TORQUE-/230954922483?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35c5fc71f3&vxp=mtr

so on and so forth...........


and a lot of those guys are machine shops that build motors and sell on ebay, have been in business for decades, most of them have warranties, and most of them are racers and do know their crap.

and............ One of those is like 2500 or something. i doubt you'll be able to build one for 2500 all said and done, paying labor, and machining and all of that. they take hits on labor because they sell volume.

just a thought.............

oh... and the 1951herb guy is pretty well trusted. i've talked to him several times, and have been looking at his motors for several years... (think that was the first link)

spades

The reason I'm building one from scratch and not buying a complete engine is that I simply don't have the funds. Like I said before, this will be a year long project, minimum. I can buy parts a bit at a time and still be able to put food on the table for my wife and kids. Craigslist isn't turning up anything for under $750 in my area. It doesn't bother me to have the block machined, I just can't afford one from places like dart and others, although I'd love to.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

then, put $10 a day into a jar over the next 365 days and you can buy one built. haha..

If it's a year long project, then there's no reason to buy parts and just let them sit there.

you have a goal, an end result in mind, so start saving. you will find ways to put more and more money in as time goes on. i guarantee you, if you start saving today, what you think will take a year may take 8 months and you can be driving it in 12 months instead of sitting on the parts. and it's VERY likely that once you buy something, you'll come across a better deal a month later and kick yourself for overspending... buy a lunati crank, and find that jegs has them on sale for 30% less than you just paid two days later. haha...

Talking to the wrong person about having projects and not having money. if i want something i can't afford, i do odd jobs, sell stuff, work overtime, stop buying beer and cigarettes, and bust my @$$ to make it happen..

for example. I sold my hayabusa to make sure i would have enough money to keep my shop open through the winter. I want a new bike, so i bought 3 junker bikes off of craigslist that i am building to sell. i had $0 budget to fix them but am putting in cash as i get it, and am about to sell a bike that i have $200 in for 2400.......

then take 400 of that and fix up the next bike i got for FREE and sell it for 3200....

then the final bike i have will take about 800, and can sell it for 5200 as a fully custom 100% rebuilt custom cafe racer

i've literally got around 25,000 worth of motorcycles and parts sitting around. screw a bike, i could buy a used C6 vette for that. hahaha

but... the point being, it's not like i just randomly have the stuff sitting around or the opportunities handed to me, i set a goal, and busted my butt to make it happen by achieving a lot of smaller goals until my ultimate goal becomes possible! which is why i am successful in my business, keep a roof over my head, pay my bills on time and can still afford the toys i want.

::::getting off of my podium now and backing into the darkness from which i came.:::: sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hahaha...

Cosmik Debris

Actually you mis-understand, probably I was not clear. I meant just buying a new 400 Dart SHP block and then matching the components yourself. Some of those crate engines don't live up to their promise. If you have a 350 block that you know is in good shape then that's great, but if you have to buy one and then get it checked, machined for the crank, clearanced for the rods, that sort of thing then this can add up.

As I said, here, getting all that done is nearly as expensive as a new block, and a new DART 400 is about $150 of your dollars more than a new GM 350 block.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

yeah, definitely wasn't arguing that

just may have said it differently... with 400000 other words around it hahahaha

spades

Well, I go to pick up my 350 standard bore, 4 bolt main block this weekend. Really excited, and can't wait to start the whole process. This will my first start to finish engine build. Gave friends a hand here and there at certain points during they're builds, but this is the first one I'll take from beginning to end. Now, just so I'm clear, what are the measurements on the rods and such for a 383? I'm googling as we speak, but it makes me feel better to see the same answer from multiple sources.

Cosmik Debris

Well, 30 thou over will give you a 383, if the bore is good you could always hone it and put standard bore pistons in it, that would give you a 377 and room for re-boring if you blow it up at some stage. One reason people go 383 is that they have a damaged engine that needs re-boring.

spades

Thanks, I'll definitely keep that in mind. Lots of sources saying I should end up with a 3.750 stroke, which is given by the 400 crank. This sound about right to you guys?

Also, does anyone have any input on Eagle or Scat stroker kits? Jegs and Summit carry both, and they seem to be reasonably priced, just wondering if anyone has any first hand experience with them.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

4.125 bore 3.75 stroke I think.. and im pretty sure you can get cranks with a slightly taller stroke for higher compression or more displacement depending on what pistons you want to use. you can bore a little more than 4.125 too.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

as for the eagle kits... never used one.. but.. as cosmic was saying about some crate or prebuilt motors not living up to their expectations, eagle is hit or miss. had tons of problems in the past, but, supposedly have ironed out theor issues...

if you want it done right and to last, go with quality parts. lunati, crane, edelbrock, blah blah blah. but again.. youre going to jack up the price of your build, when ypu could buy a premade one that will do what you want for your road car. if you are drag racing, id suggest not using the ebay eagle crap.

I thought about stroking my Lt1 with the eagle stuff, everyone warned me against it

Cosmik Debris

That'll give you a 400. A 383 is a 30 thou over 350, i.e. 4.030 X 3.75.

mitchberry

iTrader: (1)

oops... yeah forgot we were talking 383... I guess I just really want him to build a 400..

Cosmik Debris

You'll get every kind of opinion on Scat and Eagle stuff, you really have to do a lot of searches and make up your own mind. The lower end kits of both Eagle and Scat are cast cranks, and hyper pistons. I think they are fine for a street car. I went for the cast steel 4340 crank (Eagle in my case) which is about twice the price of the cast one for extra durability, again YMMV.

1gary

Word games is "cast steel". Forged is forged and cast is cast.

spades

Actually, I'm hearing from quite a few sources that since I'm not building a hardcore race engine, cast parts will be fine and will shave tons off costs. This isn't a 500+hp build, I'll be happy with 300-350. Forged parts will be used if I find em for the right price.

1gary

It is a marketing ploy to extract more money from you for basically nothing still having the same Q.C. machining/material issues that all the low dollar have.
I don't know if you had seen a post from me before,but I have never said to anyone on this forum to buy hard core high end race parts.Consistently I have told people the costs difference between bottom of the barrel parts and middle of the road cost parts,it's silly to buy less.(example is the Howards brand name)Then to costs those parts at full retail without attending any of the auctions/trade shows is a major mistake.

1gary

I didn't say this( well,again) and should have.Those steps I outlined earlier in this thread for 400's are critical to insure you have a good 400 block.Do not overlook them!!!.