Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

First of all, Hi all, my name is Andrew and I live in Concord, CA. I'm about to give up on my current car and donate it (Go here if you're interested in helping with that POS) and I would like to replace it with a 3rd gen camaro.

I have a bunch of things I know I want out of it, but somethings I am unsure of, like what to look for. The car will be my daily driver, and lets just say after the underpowered 4 door (3 actually...LR doesnt open ) Mazda boat I want to drive around with a bit more style, and no car has more style (in my eyes) than a 3rd gen F Body. I still see a lot of them, so that tells me they are pretty reliable.

I want T-Tops and I want the 5.7 TPI engine. I want the mileage to be as low as possible of course. I dont mean to bombard, but here are just a few questions that pop up in my head.

How many miles are too many miles for these cars? What should be the max # of miles I consider buying, especially considering that I plan to put a few miles on it myself.

What year is best? I know certain years hardly any 350s w/ T-Tops were made, and other years they were much more common. I've heard things like 89-92 were FAR superior to the other years, but my info is still sketchy.

I probably dont have any business asking this because anybody with a muscle car isnt getting it for economy, but what kind of gas mileage can I expect?

And lastly, how easy are they to work on? I've done minimal work on my 88 Mazda 929, and it has been HORRIBLE. They engineered that car to be SO hard to work on. Are 3rdgens like this, or will it be relatively easy for me to do routine maintenance as well as replace parts, be it major or minor? I'm fairly new to cars as far as under-the-hood goes, and i've heard these cars are high maintenance, but I see that as a good oportunity to learn, not as a bad thing.

Again, sorry if i'm out of line posting these questions, but any help with entering the world of 3rd gen ownership would be greatly appreciated, and I could not imagine a better place to ask. (Sorry if this is the wrong forum, it was the closest match I could find to my topic)

scottmoyer

87 - 89 are the only years you will find the 350 with TTops in Camaros. The gas mileage of a stock car will be around 15 city, 20 highway. Any combination of driving will result in closer to 15. These cars aren't that bad to work on. A few spark plugs are tight to get at, but other than that....

As for miles, I've seen some cars run up to over 200k miles. If you're looking for reliable transportation, consider finding a car with less than 50k miles. It will less likely be hacked up with poor attempts at modifying and should be in good condition.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

My dad, who's roof I still liver under is trying to tell me that buying one of these is a mistake, that it will be unreliable, a gas guzzler, and that I need to "come down to earth and buy something economy and reliable like a Civic" That actually kind of offended me, he's usually pretty cool and lets me live my own life. I assume he's probably going on the stereotype of American made cars produced during the 80s and doesnt want to have to assist me in working on this thing should I ever need a hand replacing something or whatever.

My 929 right now with 156k original miles, gets about 14-15 MPG city anyway. I cant imagine a well running 350 getting much worse than that. I do not drive more than 90 miles a week, which is why I am not worried about getting a powerful car. Sure, if I had a 4 banger I would only need to fill up once a month, but with my current situation (and no signs of changing for another 2-3 years) gas is not a big deal. Its not like a have an hour commute every morning/evening through 15mph stop and go traffic like most people do.

They wont force it upon me, but it would be nice to NOT have them against me. I mean hell, its my dream car, and if you ask me a pretty easy dream to realize. I love to drive, always have...i'm sure i'm not alone among these forums in my belief that driving is much more than getting from point A to point B Ya' need a good toy.

3.1EyeCandy

iTrader: (3)

if you're looking for reliability, mileage, etc. get one of these:

91-92 year model Trans/Am, GTA, or Z28 w/ 0 to 130k miles. These cars (to me at least, owned 3 thirdgens so far) always seem to be more well off and not hacked up. Not to mention the better mileage you'll get.

zedder 1 9 9 0

One thing to remember in all of this is that the "newest" thirdgen you can buy is nearly 14 years old. These are old cars and even the lower miliage versions you seek are going to have issues due to their age. One thing to remember is that there are alot of parts on these cars that break down with age(any rubber bushings or seals electronics etc.). So you might be fixing it more often for that reason. Overall these are one of the most reliable North American cars to come out of the 80's.

CraZ-28

Darkshot,

If your looking for an F-Body, here is my recommendation. I would go for the 91-92 F-bodies. They were the best built ones out there. You can get a 350 w/auto or go 305/5 speed. They had the most power of all the third gens, except for the TTA of course. Now I know you want t-tops but I would stay away from them. Granted they are nice but a lot of people have issues with them leaking, flying off at high speeds, plus your car is just that much easier to get into.

Now I'm not telling you to not get a car with T-tops but just trying to give you some ideas about what you may be getting into. Also, don't get the first "great" thing that comes along. Do your research and eventually that perfect f-body will come along.

Good luck and welcome to the f-body addiction.

okfoz

Lets start this over

Scott you get 15 mpg???

I get an honest 23 mpg on the highway, went from Flint to Dayton OH on a tank of gas, 260 miles, got 25 Mpg, on the way back I got qabout 21, but when I re-filled in Dayton I do not think I got a full tank my last fillup before coming back. Thats with 3.73's...

If you really like to play around (like most of us do) your mialage will drop off fast. As far as unreilable, the Chevy V8 is older than the hills and parts are plentiful and cheep, not to mention its a relaible setup. One thing to consider, the only people who say that there not reliable are those who seem to run the car HARD all the time. Not always, but seems to work that way.

Ease to work on its not bad once you get the feel to how things come apart and go together. Plan on replaceing the rear spark plugs from underneath.

The biggest PITB is the fuel pump, Unfortunately you have to drop the rear axel, exhaust and some heat shields to get to the tank. WHY they did not put in a removable panel I will never know. would have made an 8 hour job into a 2 hour job.

With the TPI, I would probably recommend running 92 octane minimum, although not necessarily a recommendation on the 305's it is on the 350's I believe.

Good luck and if they say its a 350, make sure the 8th didget of the VIN is an 8. 8th = 8 pretty easy to remember.

John

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Well around here my choices are 87, 89, and 91...91 work fine if I end up getting one?

Trust me i'm all over the 305/350 mix up, I know what to look for because I do NOT want to get screwed out of that

scottmoyer

Yeah, John, 15!!

My problem is the IROC-Z has more power than my daily driver so when I do drive it, I have fun! There aren't many lights I leave that I'm not the first one out. I would probably be considered "hard on my car". I drive it hard but I take very good care of it.

Oddball

Some thoughts:

My 86 IROC with the venerable LG4 (V8 4BBL Carb) gets around 20 MPG combined driving when I drive it to work (40 miles highway each way). This is a GREAT summer car but pretty much sucks to drive in the rain and snow -- I have to be VERY careful or I fishtail or spin the tires when starting. I generally never drive it with the T-tops on since it's a "nice weather" cruiser.

I don't know what your weather is like where you live but for a good solid "daily driver" your father might be right (My DD is an Accord V6 which is a beautiful car). That said if you can learn to control the Camaro in inclement weather, don't beat it, and don't do stupid things it could be a very enjoyable car.

scottmoyer wrote:
I edited this post for language. Bypassing language filters by using special characters is not allowed. Please keep the language clean!

91blkta

Most of the 91-92 cars that have t tops are 305 gm at that point thought that a 350 flexed the car to much. 305 are not that fast but a good solid running engine if taken car of. You will also find that domestic parts tend to be cheaper and easier to find. Good rule on old cars with higher miles is to have some extra money to replace anything that may be warn. You would be surprized what can be done with 500-1000 dollars if you do your own work. If your heart is set on one take your time and shop a good deal with very little if any rust. As long as your not buying alot of go fast parts these cars tend to be cheap and easy to fix. Also I would recommend buying a repair manual so you can learn the concepts of repair on f body's. There is always thirdgen.org and many other boards to learn from others have done to repair and solve problems. Mileage on third gens in good running order in stock condition tend to very from 16-26 depending on driving conditons.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Dont get me wrong, I am constantly pondering in my which path I should take, be it american muscle or economy. I am looking into simple no thrills economy cars just as much as I am looking into Camaros, you just dont see it because this isnt obviously a good place to do that . I am well aware of the advantages and reliability of a well taken care of Honda or Toyota. But there are a few things tipping me towards the "fun muscle car" path. They are that I only drive about 90 miles a week (all city), so gas is not really a big deal. If I had one of these cars, hell it would be my baby. I absolutely love to drive, and I love even more the thought of rolling around town with the the tops off, wing blowing in my air, the intimidating rumble of a powerful, tamed V8 under the hood. I would avoid as much as possible taking any crazy risks that would increase my chances of being at fault in an accident. I mean sure, once in a blue moon I may call upon the power at my fingertips (who wouldnt?), but for the most part I would completely baby the car. I would buy something as stock as I could find, and try to keep it as stock as possible in hopes of holding on to it as long as possible and some day turning it into a show car.

As far as the weather goes, I am confident enough in my ability to over time learn to control the vehicle in harsh weather, but the weather here is great 95% of the time. Summers are long, beautiful and warm, winters are much shorter and if the sun is not out its usually just foggy or cloudy with the occasional rain shower. We get maybe one heavy storm a year. (And i've seen midwest and east-coast weather, our "Heavy storms" are not even close to what you guys call "Heavy storms") It has never snowed here in recorded history as far as I know, and it only drops below 32 a couple nights a year, some years not even at all so there is never a threat of ice on the road.

Unless I am missing something painfully obvious I dont think my situation could be more ideal for something like this, with the exception of having to get to school one morning and something going wrong with the car rendering it undrivable in which case everybody around me (The same people who's car I would then have to borrow) would deal me the biggest "I told you so!" of my life And that, to be honest, I am VERY afraid of. Am I thinking straight, or am I just another young dumb college kid looking for a cool car as ***** bait?

My350Camaro84

well just a thought. I know Maryland is a tad of a hike for you but theres is this BEAUTIFUL 87 IROC red with black t-tops. TPI 350. going for roughly 14k. I'm sure they'd let you walk with $13,000. they've had it for quite some time. this thing is amazing 14 some thousand miles. garage kept since 87. all original except the tires. just thought I'd give ya some help.

84L69TA

$13,000? Thats too much money for 3 of those cars!!

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Tell them to garage it for another 5 years and i'll get back to you on that

Trouble is, if I bought one of those, I would be afraid to drive it. At this point I dont think it would be wise to buy something that rare (I mean with the miles so low) and just ruin it by putting miles on it. Better for a collector I would think.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Hey Andrew, I live in Concord as well. We actually have a bit of a car club out here. Check out the west coast forums too!!

What part of concord are you in? I live about a mile from concord high.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

No way dude! I just graduated from Concord High. I live about a mile from it too, right off Clayton Way. I work at Diablo Foods, right down the street from Concord High.

You're not the guy with the CRAZY LOUD white TA that I see zipping around our parking lot every now and then are you? That would be nuts .

scottmoyer

I'm not sure I follow this statement. If it was a comment regarding the value of the 14k mile 87, then I need to disagree. My car has 13k miles, fully loaded with every option, and I have been offered $16k for mine.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Yep that's me.

After reading my sig you understand why it's so loud huh?? Straight pipes are a wonderful thing Mine has a blue stripe down the middle and the plate reads "SLOW TA"

Shoot me a PM man, we're having a G2G this week (BBQ and sh*t) and hitting the track on the 16th.

Here's my baby (fixed the headlight since then):



As for finding a 3rd, I know of a few for sale in the area, but if you find something you like let me know and I'll come look it over with you. I know these cars backwards and forwards!! Then when you get the car of choice (better damn well be a 350!!) I'll help you do the all important cam swap and 5-speed swap

hmmurdock_00

91-92 is great as far as power, and realibilty. My 305 TBI got up over 26 mpg sometimes on the highway thats easy driving (not something common to me sometimes). But TPI are more powerful and in most cases are better on gas. A 305 isn't that bad, granted 350 is better. But even 305 TBI with autos stock been recorded doing 16.2 seconds in 1/4 which is not very fast but quick.

I drove my camaro 6 years no major engine trouble. Only repairs was intake leak, and altenators (one was a lemon). Other than that served me fine 6 years of regular service.

But do take your time looking. I am currently in a market for another camaro, after mine got totaled (I hate dern ford pickups).

Always take your time, when you find a car that you are looking for you will know it.

Im not to sure about the 82-90 since i never owned one, but owning a 91-92 i can say they are great.

tta1415

Tell your dad you came to your senses and decided to get a V6 1989 Trans Am.

Epro

It toke me 0.75 seconds to get that...

White93z34

iTrader: (1)

my 87' currently has 166,xxx on the origional engine and transmision, and has been used for daily transportation since about 1994, my car is very unmolested and i know the first 2 owners, it also helps that its been in my family since brand new.

its fairly relyable, its left me stranded twice i think since i've taken ownership of it, but for the most part its very relyable, but its also 18 years old and stuff breaks, like for instance it needs a new starter right now seeings it stranded me today but a new one is about $40 and is prety easy to change i'm not gona get too mad, besides i have my z34 to drive till i fix it.

as for fuel mileage i can pull off about 17 around town and 24 on the highway, not bad for a v8.

in response to your mileage question, it's all relative. my friend has a 91 RS with 89,xxx on it and we just got through replaceing the engine, and the transmission is prety new too, and this car has rust problems like crazy wheras my 87' with 166,xxx has had very minimial rust problems and is running the origonal engine/transmission.

as for daily driver use:
always carry tools / fluids
in the winter get the car oil undercoated
snow tires and weight in the hatch and learn how to drive in the snow good.

hmmurdock_00

DiNunzio is right there, mileage is all dependent on the driver. Drive hard you pay, Drive easy you don't pay as much.

Also for a Daily Driver (DD) you want to keep a tool set on you. A jack and if you go far from home or know that no one can bring you a spare is a good thing to have. I happened to throw the crappy heavy relieve tire out and keep a full size at home unless I went far off somewhere. Keeping a quart or more of oil and a gallon of water(max amount to carry i say) is a good thing. This usually adds enougth weight depending on the conditons are.

I kept a tool set and used it often, not because my car broke down (which never happened except for the fuel pump going out on me).

Stuff you think you may need on the road you should have, also someway to contact someone if something would happen be a good idea, i.e. cell phone, or cb radio.

Most 3rd gens can get decent mileage stock when you think about it. If you where really worried about mileage get a 2.8 Iron Duke. You would be slow but you get better mileage than a civic.

AmorgetRS

iTrader: (6)

The Iron Duke was a 2.5, the 2.8 is a V-6

Cadillac

Hey there Concord... San Mateo here. I see Tony already got a hold of ya.

Here's my perspective. I love my TBI but I lust after a TPI. The TPI just performs better and loots a lot better sitting in an engine bay (IMO). However, the TBI I have is the epitome of reliability and on the road is pretty nice on the mileage (~26 MPG on the last haul). With the Flowmaster 80 and corvette servo, I get enough growl on the street and decent handling on the road.

The convertible is nice too on occasion.

We'll see you around soon I'm sure.

86NiteRider

iTrader: (10)

Well it seems you are smarter than your father.

I have the best of both worlds. My '86 is a T Top that is great for crusing in on hot summer nights.

But my '92 is the favorite as I just love the look and performance. It is still a perfect running TBI with some modest upgrades that allow for power improvements and good mileage at the same time. The handeling is great and I have no rust. My interior is mint.

Take your time and look for the right car. Do your homework and know all of the diferent engines and body styles so you are happy. I knew that the '92 was my favorite body style so I waited and got a good one instead of buying any old car. There are a lot of dogs out there but there are some gems and some almost gems too. Remember a fool and his money are soon parted.

okfoz

I think Darkshot got himself something other than a third Gen... As he has not been back in a week...

John

hmmurdock_00

Thanks for correcting me on that, some reason I always get the number wrong on the end of it.

Since 86niterider mentioned gems being among the crap out ther I had to share this. Went looked at what sounded to like the perfect 91, it was an RS but I figured what the guy was asking it must be really mint. It is the 305 TBI 58,500 on it, all orginal, red paint, gray interior, on the phone he told me the only thing wrong is a busted speaker and casette no longer plays. Got there to look at it and test drive oh brother, then front gfx needed to be repainted and reattached on the driver side, the side gfx on the driver side needed to be replaced, need new driver side signal and fender well. Interior needed new dash pad, interior clean up, ac vent, headliner, sunvisors, and sail panels, and the windsheild was cracked.

This guy was asking 5000, because he paid 4800 for the car, then plus repairs he has made since he had the car. He turned down an offer of 4700 because a guy ticked him off imagine what he would have thought when heard what i give him. At max I would have gave him 3k for the car and only reason I would do that is I have about everything to fix it in my 92. No way I pay that money though for a RS even that low of mileage when I can get a 92 Police Package for a minium price of 4700 or so.

This is just one of the stories out there I have seen of this. So yeah keep an eye out for sure.

He may have already gooten a car to okfoz.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

Nope, I have not gotten a car yet. I still check this thread twice a day to see if anybody else has chipped in, and i'm happy to see that people still are and I appreciate the input. I shall continue to look for the perfect one, and in the meantime drive my current car into the ground.

purpleZ-28

ill tell you alittle bit about these cars.

ive got an 85, it used to be a six until someone wrecked their 88 G92 and swapped everything to the 6 cylinder car. its got t-tops also.
ive owned it for roughly 6 months, and i LOVE it! i can stomp on any import that comes my way, hehe, even s2000's have checked my tailights. (ive got a brake light out, oh well, weekend fix)
in that 6 months i have: changed the clutch, thowout bearing, pressure plate, oil change, new coolant, removed the air dam, fixed multiple vacum leaks, i had to tweak the rear brakes, change the starter, change out the battery cables, new thermostat, and had to get the locking lugs drilled off (previous owner lost the key!). oh and i had to pull a dent in the OIL pan!!!! (long story )
it doesnt sound like too much, and it is bassicly rutine maintnince, but these cars are pretty hard to work on! just to get the the thermostat i had to unbolt the throttle body, and i might have taken the alternator off too, cant remember.

but trust me, these cars are ALOT of work. at least mine was/is. i still need to fix a leak in the winshield, fix the speedometer (doesnt work at all), replace air filters, and it is in DESPERATE need of plugs and wires.
but at the end of the day, cruisin without the ts on, and racing all the kids around here who think theyre fast till they meet the purple z, its all worth the time money and effort. these things are my 2nd love.

I edited this post for language. It's unnecessary and not allowed on TGO. Keep it clean!

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

I've been searching for production numbers on google but I cant seem to find the information i'm looking for. What would be my chances of finding a 91-92 305 TPI w/ 5spd and T-Tops?

a mack6

iTrader: (1)

Go to www.camarosource.ca . they have lots of production numbers there. I got myself a 92 Heritage Camaro w/ the 305 TBI in april and i love it. It had 45,000 miles on it when we bought it and it was in great shape. I'm sure you could get a great dailer driver on almost any f-body with mileage under 110k, but like someone else said...the newest 3rd gens are still 14 years old. Even a car as mint as mine has had some minor things related to age. Blown heater core, brittle weather stripping, slightly leaking water pump, etc.

Good luck and keep us updated.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

There's a beautiful, low miles, 1991 Z28 with the 5.7L engine over in martinez. It's black. It just sits there, could probably convince the guy to sell it.

85 T/A WS6

Any 1985 Recaro Option T/A would be the best, good luck finding one though

purpleZ-28

to tell you the truth, ive been looking for that combo withOUT t-tops for about 4 years, and i havent found one (within price range that is) that i like.
i found one 88 with tbi and an automatic, the interior was mint, and the exterior was pretty nice also. but, it had a hacked up wiring harness, and it couldnt peal out if its life depended on it wich is

okfoz

From your description its more than likely that the reason you have soo much maintence is the result of the way you drive not the quality of the car.

John

okfoz

Darkshot,
You are looking for a tough combo, there were more 350 cars made than 350 TPI/M5 cars...

Especially when you add T-tops, that adds to the "rarity" Although there not technically RARE, they are unusual, and you may look for a while. I guess finding one might be a "shot in the dark" Although I think there were fewer Hard Top 305 M5 cars.

One thing you may consider is a Manual transmission is historically not as reliable as an Automatic. Its just a fact, just for the simple fact that you have more interaction with the trans means that it is more likely to have cluthces go out etc. Although they are more fun to drive.

John

purpleZ-28

the guy before me trashed the thing. smoked in it, "drifted" it, didnt change the oil in around, 5 or 6000 miles, maybe more. the plug wires dont even match. ive only had the car for maybe 6 months, and at least 3 of those it was off the road due to maintnince.
but these cars are old, they do require alot of maintnence

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

I'm starting to think maybe I should be a little less picky with what I want

http://autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?ca...ng=&cardist=27

I talked to this guy, selling because he is getting married. 1st owner, always garage kept, totally babied the car, he said he just took it in to the dealer for a 75,000 mile check up. What is the most I should consider paying? That car looks loaded and super-clean, if carfax checks out and it drives as nice as it looks I would be more than willing to pay a little extra for it. (But not 8500)

purpleZ-28

it isnt worth 8500, but it is very nice. id say try to talk him down, and if you can get him down to blue book, then take it dude.

superGMman

Darkshot, I live in San Leandro and have been looking for a deal for a while and I have to say that the best deals seem to be on Craig's List. That car you're looking at has been on Autotrader for what seems like forever, and there's probably a reason for that: It's too much money to pay.

It seems like you have alot of money to spend on a car that shouldn't cost as much as your'e willing to pay, but it is your'e money!

Keep in mind that with $8,500 you can buy almost any combination of options you want in your dream thirdgen.

Needs a paint job but check this one out: http://www.craigslist.org/pen/car/112292499.html

Rebuilt motor, trans, has a 9-bolt, needs different gears, interior is flawless.

Just trying to help

purpleZ-28

blue book is about 4300, and that is if it really is a 350 Z28 anyway. theres no way id spend 8500 on it though.

Darkshot

iTrader: (4)

book is about 4000, and it has a 305 not a 350.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

There's a 91 Z in dublin. dude wanted like 3800 for it I think. L98 car.

TTOP350

iTrader: (8)

Buy a 500 dollar import to beat around in and buy a nice 3rd gen car for weekends shows the drags and if you break your unreliable car you'll have something to drive to work/school..

my .02

purpleZ-28

hahaha
i need to do that, then i can get some work done on mine!

so is it a 305 with tpi?