camaroyoungster

So I recently put new tie rod ends, balljoints and an idler arm on my car. The orginal v6 springs were broke so I put in some V8 ones that I got from a friend. Now before I took the car in, it went straight down the road and didn't pull at all. Now after I got the alignment done it pulls to the right and one side is up farther than the other. I have attached pictures of the paper work they gave me and what each side of the car looks like and what the camber plates look like.

They told at me at the place that one side was maxed out and that it would pull to the left and I would need 16mm offset camber bolts. Well I thought I would get them myself and go back in for a re alignment but then he came back at the end and told me that they put the right side maxed out and evened up the left side to make it go straight. It doesn't and I dont know if I should complain to them to fix it or if it is because of the v8 springs.

Now with the springs. The tight side of the car looks completely normal and it looks like it has the orginal v6 springs in it. The left side is almost 2 inches higher than the right. when you also look at the car straight ahead. The right side looks straight up and down but the left side looks like it is like \ with the top of the tire out.

camaroyoungster

1st pic. before and after on paper. look at camber
2nd pic. left side of car
3rd pic. right side of car

camaroyoungster

1st pic. camber plate left side
2nd pic. Camber plate right side

SlickTrackGod

Your ride height is way too high. This is throwing off the front suspension geometry so you can not get the proper adjustment range (it is basically all about angles and arm lengths and suspoension mount points) the car being at a raised height makes for less than factory adjustment ranges.

The ONLY way you can fix this is to take the springs oput and trim them to a ride height at least 1" lower (you ould even go as low as about 3" from what I am guessing at your visual ride height) What you need to do is put the car on a flat level ground- I mean each tire needs to be leveled on a very percise piece of concrete ground so as to measure fender lip heights and know that the ground is not making poor readings. Put a long level on the ground and mark footprint areas boxes in tape and then roll the car "forward" onto them to get readings (never roll backwards, the suspension changes due to toe angle.) I would start by measuring your rear fender lip heights, and then sitting the front fender lip heights about 1" lower than the rears. Try to be no higher than about 27" on both fronts. Try to make them as equal ride height as possible. This will take a LOT of work, but it needs to be done. You put different springs int he car that have raise it improperly.

Once you get that ride height, you will want to "demand" to an alignment tech tp put in your own numbers. You do NOT want camber bolts to adjust the camber, they cause havoc on SAI readings and will make each side differ which causes severe pulling under heavy braking. Take those back out if you installed them. Go to a shop that will give you SAI readings. That print out you have is crap, don;t go back there- ask around for who can give you SAI readings as well as camber caster and toe. Set Caster at about 4L and 4.5R, set Cmaber at -0.5. DO NOT GO POSITIVE ON THESE READINGSOF CAMBER!!!The tech printout is bullsh^t those specs in that machine are crap. Go 3/32" in on toe, and the SAI shoul be within 1* on both sides (aprox 12-15* range)

Dean
NASCAR Supertruck crewchief (if that give you an idea I know a little about this game)

camaroyoungster

Well the shop manual I have says that it should be within 1-1.5 positive degrees of camber. the thing with the springs is that one side sits higher and I know they are both the same since I knew the car that they came out of. here are some pictures of height from lip of rim to fender.

the first Pic is left side looking at front of car and second pic is the right side

camaroyoungster

I just found this article that I found is really helpful. My car is an f41 car which uses the same springs as the base v8s. Here's the link. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=395546&styleid=51

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

The side that sits high, the spring is probably not indexed correctly.

Take it back apart and check your work.

The fender is TRIM; bent-up tinfoil kinda tacked to THE CAR at a few spots with BIG holes with LOTS of slop; barely even ATTACHED to THE CAR, let alone PART OF THE CAR. Might as well try to level your house by measuring the curtains. Measure THE CAR instead.

NO WAY you'll EVER get it aligned right, with that going on.

Reid Fleming

iTrader: (2)

Regardless of what the manual says, positive camber is a terrible idea. +1 to +1.5 degrees of camber will mean that you will wear out the outside edges of your tires even if all you do is drive in a straight line. Now turn a corner and all that weight shifts to the outside edge. And that outside tire will be leaning severely on it's outer edge. Even more outer edge tire wear.

Negative camber is what you want. I've never worn out the insides of my tires.

camaroyoungster

Ok thanks for all the replies. I will probably end up taking the spring back out and seeing what is causing this, this weekend. What do I tell them when I go back to tell them it's all messed up?

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Tell em you want it aligned like this:

Caster: 4 - 4½° positive, R no less than the L to slightly higher (½° at most)
Camber: ½ - 1° negative, again R no less than L to slightly higher, ½° at most
Toe: IN, 1/32 - 1/16"

Nothing REMOTELY like the factory specs. If they refuse, and tell you they "have to" set it to the factory specs, inform them you'll take your money elsewhere, and turn around and walk out.

Fix the spring indexing first. Can't align a car that's inherently messed up. Just like a house; can't fix cracks in the sheet rock while the foundation is collapsing.

camaroyoungster

Ok so I took the wheel off and looked at the spring. It is rotated right where it needs to be in the little pocket for the end of the spring so that is out of question now. Could it possibly be the insulator at the top is in the wrong spot? that is the only other thing I can think of.

plum92_camaro

SlickTrackGod

Just yank the isolators out of the front of the car. Wrap just a little black electrical tape around the end of the top spring end (just thinkness of the tape and about 3 loops around the coil. Then take some molylube (wheel bearing grease) and grease the upper spring pocket where the top of the spring will contact. I ran my car like this for 20 years with zero noise. This will lower the car where you need it for better alignment geometry.

Do not use positive camber. and for chroist sakes do not go -1.0 camber either. Just go -0.5. One side could be -0.4 and the other -0.6 and that is withing enough tolerance you'll be fine. Just ell the tech to shoot for -0.5.

Actually on CASTER I'll give you a tip there also. Have the tech do the passenger side first and MAX out positive caster as far as you can go (trust me on this I do my own alignments of tons of friends with 3rd gens and well as I do race car setups in NASCAR. You then have the tech do the drivers side next keeping the left within .5* LESS then the passenger side caster reading.

Set toe at 3/32 in.

Remeber what I said about SAI. You need to have that within about 1* of eachother side to side or the car will pull under braking.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Youngster, Where you at in WI?

Brian

camaroyoungster

Brian, I am in Watertown. Well I did more looking today and I was going to take the one spring out with a spring compressor without taking the whole strut and stuff apart but there is really no other way to get the spring out so I might have to wait until this weekend to figure something out. I did noticethat the spring in the car is a B4H spring and I looked at my old springs and they were BXS springs so I am guessing that one side is a BXS and the other is a B4H and my car being a v6 will ride higher on one side. So I guess I am going to have to order some new springs or if any one has springs for the f-41 suspension which I am pretty sure is just base v8 springs.

On the other hand still need to figure out the camber issue. Is it possible for me to set it my self or would that be impossible with out the right tools?

Last thing. While I was jacking the car up, the jack slipped off the k-member right in the middle(I don't know how since it is a jack with a big pad) and bent the center link. How f***** up is my toe in going to be since it is bent? I do have another center link that I could use but if I don't have to that would be nice.
I attached some pictures of the center link to see what you guys think.

camaroyoungster

And Slick, you want me to ask for the angle of the strut to the true center? I just had to look it up to understand what it meant.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

Gotta change the center link. It's destroyed. Not optional.

No telling how far off your toe is, or anything else. It's DESTROYED. Case closed. Swap it out.

SAI is something they'll measure during the alignment. (or at least, SHOULD... the "computer" "machine" jockeys may not bother, but that just goes to show how inept that kind of place really is) It can't really be set independently of the other measurements. If it's off though, it's a dead giveaway that something is bent, most likely a spindle, which you then need to find so you can put that in the trash along with that center link.

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Yeah, center link is gone. Rock Auto - you should get 1 day delivery since they're in Madison. They do wear out, so you should replace anyway. Accidents happen, live & learn, factor it in to life and to cars. Women too, but you'll have to ask Slick on that one.
Look for a better shop, one that works on custom adjustable suspensions. Ask them if they measure SAI (strut angle inclination) and its on their printout. Can they measure bump steer?, ask them how they measure it? Do they know how to adj a-arm pivot points? Listen and watch them when they try to give you an answer. D&Z Customs (Randy Johnson) just north of West Bend does a lot of cool stuff (http://www.dandzcustoms.com/), call and ask (it's free and you'll learn stuff), see if they know of anyone closer to you, not that they're far. Don't be afraid of high-end builders. In this economy, they are not doing many, and will help youngsters who ask good questions! Andrew Automotive in Glendale (dealership) are decent - dealers often are double in price, but do the work in half the time. I met the Service Dir. (Brian Davis) at a f-body track event at Road America.
Suspension parts are not areas where I would buy used - springs... though it can be done. Those bushings inside your strut mounts are not going to help your alignment goals.
What are your goals, what are you trying to do with the car (application), what's your budget, do you have your own work space? Does the car have other immediate needs? We can help put together a plan for you, we just need a little more info.

I'm not far from here:

TEDSgrad

iTrader: (4)

Never been here, but I know he's there: Firebird City

W 9076 Hwy A, Delavan, Wisconsin 53115

Phone 608-883-2338 . . . Fax 608-883-6963

E-Mail sales@firebirdcity.com

camaroyoungster

I recently stripped another camaro down and I got the whole front steering assembly and k-member with everything so I have spindles and a center section. It is just time now that I am going to school to put everything in. I don't plan on going to crazy with the car just yet. since this happened I will probably set the car aside for this winter so I can start tearing it apart to fix the rust on it. I have another car I can use for now so it is no big rush. I want to eventually get some nice tubular suspension stuff since I want to get into autocrossing but can't really do that with a rusty car that looks like crap.