upincomin

I was driving down the road, and my car just shut off. I tried to restart, it fired, and then fell. So we had to push it to a parking spot. I let it set for awhile and cool off, thinking maybe it just over heated. Came back, tried, it turns over no problem, but staying running is the problem.
I pulled off the air cleaner, and had a buddy try starting it, no fuel coming out of injectors. I bought a windex bottle, dumped it out, rinsed it with gas, then filled it with gas to act almost like an injector. Had buddy start it again, while spraying into the injectors, I could get the car to run, but as soon as I stopped spraying, it shuts off again. I've narrowed this down to fuel pump/relay. I tried to have a friend turn the key and listen for the pump to turn on, but the traffic outside was too loud to notice either way.
I'm going to buy a new relay tomorrow and try that first. I'm hoping it's not the pump. That could be a real PITA. I need my car for work. UGH...
Any other ideas? Feel free to throw them out there.. I could use anything right now. Thanks guys.

hot92RS

I think you are on the right track. Had a similiar problem with mine a couple of years ago. It was the fuel pump that had gone out. If you find that is what the problem is, do a search for the repair or just consult your Haynes or Chilton manual. Then there is the debate about dropping the tank or cutting an access hole. plenty of info on this forum about both.

upincomin

Yeah, that's what I was afraid of. I really wanted it to be somethin easy like last time. It was only the ignition coil. A pump could take a while.. AND i just put a full tank of gas in it, at premium. That's a good $60 down the drain.
I'm going to go try the pump relay first because it's only $17. I'll get back to the post with results incase anyone else has this problem in the future. Chances are that it's the effin' pump though.

upincomin

Thought I would throw this in there.. I just changed out the fuel pump relay. Not expecting it to be the cause. It proved right, lol. Just figured that if I could fix it with a $20 part first, I would. So I bought a stock pump, filter and harness and I plan on installing all of it this Wed and Thurs. I'll report back with the results.

RFmaster

Yes, I know this PITA all too well. Based on your description it is almost 99% percent related to a fuel delivery - it could FP just got tired and failed or it could be a FP output hose (to to feed through) burst. In either case it is best to R&R FP, sock, hose. Having a helper (a useful one that it is ) makes this messy job go easier.

//RF

hot92RS

Way to go with the FP relay diagnosis. Do you know if the FP was ever replaced? If not, I agree with your path of replacing it. If it was replaced, you may save yourself a lot of work. There are also other parts you may replace while you are taking the tank down like suspension bushings, etc. if you have the time, money. There is a thread on here about replacing those things.

upincomin

Hey, thanks for the heads up, yeah, right now I'm not going to get into very much else. I'm just going to drop the tank, replace the pump and put it back, I need my car for work. I'm about to rank up here in November, and I'll be making almost 1700 extra a month, I've got big plans, already got a $6,000 383 built and ready, (Gunna need a new pump again anyways). So in the mean time, I'm fixin what I can to keep it running that long.
But yeah, the plan is to replace almost everything but the chassis and the body by the time I'm done.

upincomin

Ok, so it was the pump for sure. Changed it out and finally got it fixed. Not sure if this is a temporary thing because it's a new pump and I still haven't filled it completely up in fear of having to remove it again. BUT when you turn the key, it turns over fine, but that's it for about 15 seconds you have to press the gas pedal to get it started, this is gunna kill my battery/starter/etc. Why does it take forever on the first time? If you shut it off and wait a second then try again, it starts fine, no problems. I figured if it was the pump it would be running crapy when you get on the gas, but it doesn't even hesitate. Only on initial startup... Any idea guys?? Your advice always seems to get me out of a jam. Thanks guys.
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Also, would like to mention that I replaced all of the old wiring with a new harness for the pump. Only thing I reused was the tank and the sending unit (The non electrical part of it).

RFmaster

No worries.
Locate ALDL connector which should be inside driver foot well connected under dash. Locate Pin G (do a search here on TGO) when connected to +12 fused source will prime fuel system by forcing FP to operate. In case that Pin G is not there - take a look at your FP relay - FP relay connector should have 4 inch red wire pig tail with connector and it works the same as Pin G on ALDL. Just make sure that you have some gas in your tank before hand. Fuel pump needs fuel to keep its cool.


//RF

upincomin

Ok, I'm gunna look into that tomorrow. It's weird that as soon as it fires, it runs like a champ all the way up the rpm range with no hesitation or stuttering what so ever. But getting it to fire is the hard part.
How about this for an idea maybe. My battery is a little on the dead side after all the attempts to start it here lately. I charged it up a bit today, but I dunno if that was really good enough. Could a near-dead battery cause it to lag a bit and catch finally? I guess that's the best way to put it. I'm so close to having a dependable car again for awhile I hope I can get this tomorrow.

upincomin

Little more food for thought. I just went out there to check try something I read last night. (Turn the key to on, and wait a bit for the oil pressure to go up, then try.) Well the pressure never changed. So I did the normal start(15 seconds long.) I noticed something too.. it has to be related.
I've mentioned that the first start sucks, but if you shut it off, wait 5 seconds and try again, it's easier. Ok, right along side of that same idea, when you start the first time, the SES light comes on. Scared me for a bit, shut the car off, wait 5 seconds, when it starts easy no SES light. Let it run to see if it came back on.. nope.
I wanna check that wiring thing you said, but that stuff is so confuzing to me. Is there like a How to for dummies, on it?? Also, recently I've changed:
spark plugs, cap and rotor, ignition coil, FP relay, fuel pump itself and also the fuel filter.
The weird part to me is that it runs with no problems after its started. Just getting to that point is the tricky part.

upincomin

I keep reposting on my own thread, lol.. but i found this site and it's served very helpful in breaking it all down for me..
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...3Doff%26sa%3DG

My question to RFmaster.. when you said to hook up a +12 to it, is that like something i should get a toggle switch for and click it on to start, then shut it off once it's started?? Or is it like a perma-fix. Where you hook it up, and it takes care of it for you when you start your engine and shut it off?? It sounds like it's something that turns the pump straight on, so wouldn't that keep it running constantly unless there is something to shut it off??
I'm still learning, mechanical is something that I understand now, electrical is something im working on..

RFmaster

Yes, the jumper wire to Pin G is only used for FP diagnostics and to prime bone dry system! From your description it appears that you have a bad or flaky FP relay.

Perform the following check. Ignition key in off position - turn into run position while observing SES light. SES should light up, then off and back on. At the same time the fuel pump should turn on for about 2 seconds and shut off. This is POST - power on self test performed by ECM. If FP fails to turn on you may have FP relay issues. To make things interesting a 6PSI oil pressure switch sits in parallel with FP relay contacts - it is a back to FP relay. When cranking oil pressure closes its contacts once oil pressure exceeds of 6 PSI turning on FP. So, if you have to crank for a while it is possible that FP contacts are bad. - Do above check first - it is a basic indicator.

//RF

upincomin

It's possible that the FP contacts or FP relay? I'm hoping it's the relay, but it very well could be the FP. We did sort of a hack job on it. But everything seemed secure. Yeah, that page I read told me all about the oil pressure. And I've noticed that when turning over the engine, you'll see the oil pressure stay low, then immediately as it starts to jump up, then engine turns over.
The Fuel pump relay is new, but I imagine it could be one of those random broken ones from the factory. I guess the only thing to do it try this next thing you said, and then I'll get back to this..
Also, If it was the FP itself, wouldn't it want to cut out everynow and then while driving also?? I've driven 20-50 miles now and occasionally reved it in neutral all the way to 4500, and not even a hesitation out of her.

RFmaster

upincomin

I tend to follow a bit of conservative philosophy - taught to me by some fellows that managed to get a man to the moon and back alive with slide rule. Generally speaking you want to verify things to be sure in a deliberative and systematic process. This is what they had to do back in the old days as there was no margin for error. Enough said.
Get a spare relay - those things are cheap and better ones are made in Germany. However, pay a close attention to FP relay socket - I have seen on more than one occasion melted socket plastic and carbonized contacts. If I recall correctly I even posted a picture of fried FP socket. The biggest enemy of any electrical system is moisture, and where you are there is plenty of it with a bit of salt mixed in. Just keep a good eye for corroded contacts and broken insulation.

Your oil pressure behaves normally - at cranking you may see 10 psi to build, but oil pressure gauge is not accurate enough to read it. Once engine is running you should see about 25 to 30 psi at idle, depending on oil viscosity and pump type.

Just do a POST check - that should tell you if you have a flaky FP relay or socket.

//RF

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upincomin

Ok, so I turned the key to run, nothin, no noise at all. Let it set there, the SES light came on and stayed on, didn't shut off and come back on, just stayed on.
Then I took apart the FP Relay and looked at the plugs and such, both sides look brand new, I mean one side is, but the plug looked new too. Here are the pics I just took.

upincomin

RFmaster

Relay contacts and socket looks good. The fact that SES light did not blinked off and pump did not turn on is worrisome. Blink off indicates that ECM did not detect any faults and all voltages within range.

Perform the following check - this will verify if your FP relay gets a control signal to activate during POST test. Get a DVM (or test light) - measure voltage across the two smaller pins in the FP socket. The two small pins should have dark green/white and black/white wire connected on the back side of the socket. ECM supples +12 Volt along dark green wire and black/white should be tied to ground.

Repeat POST test - you should see DVM read +12 volts for about 2 seconds (or test light lights up). If you do not you'll have to dig deeper still. Most common culprit is a broken or a missing ground lug on a black/white wire. Leave a test lead connected to a dark/green wire pin and move the other lead to good chassis ground. If you get a reading you found your missing ground! If you do not get +12 volts then ECM is not supplying +12 volts to FP relay. Possibly a bad ECM or a brake in a harness.

Do this test - post your findings - we will find this bugger!

//RF

upincomin

After I posted the pics, I went to Napa and bought another fuel pump relay. Also ordered the socket. Didn't need the socket. It was the FP Relay. Even though I JUST bought the other one, it was a fault new one I guess and still didn't work. So, now I got everything to work right, primes and everything. Also, figured it's worth mentioning, you said that oil pressure should read bout 30... Mine at idle reads 45 and under full throttle it's at 60. How do I lower that, because I knew it read 30 before, just thought I was wrong since I can't seem to get it to lower at all.

enswrob

oil pressure will read a bit higher with a cold engine..

upincomin

I thought so too, but after about an hour, it's still high up there.. like WELL over 30..

RFmaster

Oil pressure will depend on many factors - so, my basic rule 30 PSI, at idle, warm, with 10W30. 60 PSI at higher RPM's is ok.

Getting back to original problem - with a new replacement relay in place do you get SES light to blink off during POST sequence (on-OFF-on)??? If you do - you 're good to go! Enjoy your ride and treat it with due care....

//RF

upincomin

RF Master... Turn key to on. It blinks on, off, stays on, until you turn the key, then it goes off. Everything seems to be running fine. The occasional slight studder at start up, but it levels out after about a second. Started doin it today actually. Runs fine after starting.. But, maybe it's just the ECM calibrating everything and it's all good. Doesn't seem to drop much below 750 at start up. Idle at start up is about 1200-1500rpm, then slowly drops as the ECM gets everything into check.

upincomin

Man, it seems like one thing or another. I'm so tempted to say "SEE YA" But, this car has been in the fam for like 9 years now, Really don't want to.
But, driving to work, I had to slow down quick to make my turn into work. Long story, lol but, midway through the turn the engine died. My heart sunk as once again, my car is dying on me. I pull over, let it rest for a minute.. Turn the key, pump the gas and she fires right up. Stumbles a bit, but runs, none the less. I drive through the gate, around the corner and into a spot. Midturn/partial brake, dies again, no clue. Brakes kill my car?? After work, I get to my car, I took off all the air components, fired up with some assistance (pumping gas).
Runs fine, no problem revving or anything, put the air components back on, still running fine, let it sit, 3-4 minutes.. still good, then go to leave, back up, fine, even with light brake pressure.. start driving, seems fine, so I said hmmm, I wonder if it really IS the brakes, hit them hard, stumbles, dies. Can't get it to start back up again.
My ONLY thoughts are vacuum leaks/bad ecm, I only think ECM because I know when you brake hard, the ECM knows it and cuts fuel to a lower level. But, would it ever cut so much that it stalls out?? Car has no problem running on it's own until you want to stop it haha.

hot92RS

Here is a thought, maybe RF can clarify. Have you thought about the FPR? I have a '02 Chevy 1500 w/ a 4.8 V8. The FPR was faulty and the symptoms were as follows: First crank, no fire. Second crank fired immediately. Every time. I honestly do not think your brakes are related to the problem. I think it may be more of a coincidence.

upincomin

No, your right, it wasn't the brakes, total coincedence. It wasn't the FPR, I had already replaced two of them. It was this stupid little 10A fuse over near the battery. There are so many things involved with the FP. I think what happened was it jarred the fuse loose when I hit on the brakes. I wouldn't have expected for it to move much at all, if any, but the fuse was half out of the socket. So When I put it back in, car ran like a champ.