maxrochatansky

Hello. This is bound to be a difficult question : when I look at the future of our beloved cars , it is clear to see that one day (maybe not THAT far from today) all gasoline will be used up , and in the years leading up to that point, gasoline (and all other petrol products) will get more and more expensive (a process we already see happening now). When demand for something is high (and still getting higher - china is just waking up !) , and supply is low (and getting a little lower every day) , prices rise.
So the main "tech/general engine" question here is :
Will our V8's be able to run on hydrogen (which is bound to be the fuel of the future) or will they be able to run on hydrogen with some minor modifications ? Or will everything we're using now be thrown on the scrap yard ?
Today already things have come to the point where we cannot easily use our big block v8's on a daily basis , because it is getting too costly. small blocks, yes, but i think everyone is starting to feel the squeeze. So the hydrogen question is a relevant ( and interesting) one, IMHO

since its easy to have our engines run on LPG Liquefied Petrol Gas , maybe there's a chance we can get them to run on hydrogen ???
The first hydrogen refueling stations are popping up all already the world !
(california , sweden, norway, belgium, ...)

I'm not really the big expert on this topic , so I'm curious what you guys have to say ...

SpitotRs305

no way in hell would a V8 in its present configuration run on Hydrogen it might be able to run on LNG, propane but it will need some modifications...you will not be making anywhere near the amount of power as you could make on gas...

Oh and Mr paranoia RE-FRICKEN-LAX you people with the oil is going to run out next week BS... YOU are the ones that drive gas prices up for every one else... if the gas companys didn't think they could tick you bleeding heart liberals into thinking "gas is going to disappear so get it while you can" they would never start screwing with the price... and if you are in fact so worried about it...just let BUSH do what he wanted to do in the first place... go in and take it... that way it can be safeguarded/ monitored at least that way people will understand just how much oil there is actually left... it is way more than will be consumed in either of our lifetimes

Toehead

Hydrogen may be the wave of the future, but think about where the hydrogen comes from: electrolysis of water. Unless it is produced from nuclear or hydroelectric (or wind, if you have it) it still pollutes, it just moves the pollution to another location.

In any event, hydrogen production is too expensive and the infastructure is just not there, at least not yet.

Don't even get me started on ethanol.

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

SPITOT , nice reply . but the guy was just asking a question . dont bash him , for asking a question . wether you or i like it in the future will be several types of fuels for cars . [ the more things change , the more they remain the same ] . i will not debate this with you , but i think you were a little out of line with your reply .

Gumby

Propane would be easy and cheap. Will still produce lots of power and is cheaper then gas.

Will find in allot of countries they make folks with big V8 switch over for emmsion reasons.

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

thanks Spitot and Toehead, I didn't have the patience to write a reply, but that's about what I would have said.
Hydrogen is not the fuel of the future, it's just another hair brained idea for now. As per Toeheads comments.
Personally I think ethanol is one way that *could* work, since it's renewable, and we know how it works right now. Maybe i'll tell my grandchildren about it when the time comes...

I want to do a propane twin turbo setup sometime, but it burns quite differently from gasoline (extremely hot, rich =hotter, etc) so it's a bit finicky to tune. For now though it's cheaper, and you could theoretically get more HP per dollar of fuel than with any alternative (IMHO).

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Ethanol has problems, but I foresee a future where there may not be a dominant fuel that everyone uses.

You may have a choice between a hydrogen car, electirc car, hybrid, or propane or whatever.


I perosnally think ethanol will have a niche market with hot-rodders. It's high octane, and will work in anything we have now you just have to retune for it. And it's renewable. I dont think we can make our economy run on ethanol, but I just think it will have a niche market with us if we choose to go that route.


There is no perfect solution, the closest to a perfect solution is gasoline and other petroleum-based fuels. We have to settle for something less ideal in the future. I think it will be an issue of what conveniences people will be willing to sacrifice. Range (electricity), reusing our motors (Ethanol), paying for new technologies (hydrogen), retrofitting for other fuels (propane).

That's why I think for a long time no single source will dominate. For ethanol to work a LOT of things would have to change surrounding its production and the economy in general, but if we just assume it only needs to power at most maybe 10-30 percent of our current automotive energy needs, then the increase in infrastructure required to produce that much ethanol is much more... not modest, but realistic.

Brazil's economy runs on ethanol, but Brazil doesnt have nearly the kind of car culture we do, plus they use sugar cane which is a much better source for it. I think we can make it work, but nothing's perfect. THere is no magic bullet. No matter what there will be a sacrifice involved. But we can make something work for our needs on an individual basis.

rideon1200

When gas runs out and the middle east is broke, finding gas for you camaro will be the LEAST of your worrys. As far as China, I am seeing increases and shortages of metal now attributed to there flourishing economy. They definitly will be the largest consumer soon.

Toehead

I only have one problem with ethanol as it stands: cost.

It turns out that it actually takes more energy to produce and ship a gallon of ethanol then it produces. Think about all the farm equipment burning countless gallons of fuel to produce the corn. Then, you need to ferment the corn. The mixture is heated, by burning.... fossil fuels. Then, it comes time to dstill it, and even more fossil fuels are needed.

I wont deny that ethanol has several advantages... It is a liquid fuel that is pretty much compatible with current engine technology. If we can somehow develop a process that is more energy efficient and still maintain the ability to produce in massive quantities, ethanol will be the way to go.

Personally, I think the all around best choice is bio diesel. It comes from a product that would be thrown away otherwised, requires no complex engine mods... It even is simple to produce... And requires no ENERGY from fossil fuels.

maxrochatansky

alright , what is was asking was an advanced technical question : can current engines burn hydrogen , or be adapted to run hydrogen or will our v8's (and everything else) go out the window ?

I do not appreciate that mr spitot , instead of answering, started assuming a number of personal things : 1) that i am a bleeding heart liberal 2) that i am causing the rise of gasoline prices 3) that i have a problem with bush "going in and taking the petrol"
Where did I state any of that , or anything that would imply those things ???

So I'd like to invite dear mr Spitot to come out to Venice , come get some sun and come get my foot up his *** .

The worst part of his message must be statement that "there is way more left than will be consumed in either of our lifetimes" . So the entire universe revolves around mr spitot huh ? after mr spitot's life , the rest can go to hell ? sweet !

FYI , current engines run perfectly well on LPG (50% propane / 50%butane)
without major modifications. I dont know about hydrogen (or i wouldnt be asking) but i think it might be possible.

all those who think its so cool of bush to simply go in there and take the oil from the arabs, well why dont you sign up and go in there ? we'll talk about the coolness of that plan when you return with one arm , or in a body bag. Djeezes !

Continued dependence on petrol is (one of the things) that will bring america to its knees. i'm not saying i can predict the future : it is already happening today.
And please, no more moronic foul-mouthing , if you are a man , then come and be a tough guy in my face : 33 North Venice Blvd #A always at your service.

UNCLE TOM

iTrader: (1)

Toehead

I can see retrofitting to run on hydrogen being very possible.


There would have to be a system to evacuate the crankcase even better then current methods, because of the excessive water vapor production. Maybe some sort of upper cylinder lubrication injector, and perhaps some sort of different piston ring setup.
Hydrogen is flammable like LNG, so a conversion should be possible IMO

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

i think hydrogen could well be one of the fuels of the future.
but not just for the cars we drive.

maxrochatansky, to answer your question, yes.
it is being worked on, read more here,
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

they have solved what to me is the biggest problem of hydrogen, its storage.

*EDIT*
BTW, so far, there is more oil left to get than we have used. some perdictions are that we have
400+ years of oil supplies left that are untapped.
do a search in yahoo for "oil shale"

blimko

iTrader: (1)

ok ok let me throw this in there. the original poster....spitot nailed it and now you got offensive...lets look into another perspective. oil produced today was not exactly produced today...its been producing itself for the last million years..we will never run out of oil. as we burn last million years oil from break down, new days break down such as plants animals bla bla is being made for the next million years. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA holds the most crude oil known to the global civilization...ALASKA has the #1 most amount of untoched oil reserves..we cant touch it because environmentalists..people like you...wont let us..UTAH...state park is #2...but we cant touch it...because people like you wont let us...and your little comment about bush getting his way.WOW.you nailed it on the head. if we were in serious trouble which we will never be, we would have went in there and taken it. So if your gonna have this kind of additude toward other opinions then have it YOUR WAY, but dont complain when gas is ten bucks a gallon...or let us have our way, and stay the *** outa my town when we open alaska utah an take saudia and gas is 99cents a gallon.

blimko

iTrader: (1)

and on another note...i havent seen anyone mention alchohol. its cheap burns clean easy to make ver cost efficient..formula one runs on alchohol why cant we. ethenol is a FUKIN JOKE. think about it..we are using FOOD for fuel..thats ironic..cereal is going up in price corn is going up in price. any corn based food product is going up in price...even castro is wondering what the heII we are doing. thats just as bad as people saying if we lose all the trees we will die from suffocation...thats bull shiI too...we get more oxygen from oceans than we do trees and if we did have a problem we would just build giant carbon dyoxide filters...

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

.... ethenol is an alcohol.

maxrochatansky asked a simple question, & has gotten some useful info, but he has also gotten some flames. i see nothing in his original post that would point to his being on the left.
he asked if hydrogen may be a viable fuel source for those of us who drive older cars.

is china using more oil now? yes, & the amount they use will only go up.
is the price of gas going up? yes. if you don't think it is, where have you been the last few years?
when i first started driving, a gallon of gas that we called premium, you could get for about 30~35 cents a gallon. now that same gallon but without lead is close to $3.00, & its still going up.
you hear it in the news all the time, we are running out of oil. not completely true, but not completely false either. the untapped oil we have left is huge but its getting harder to get & is harder to refine, both of which makes it cost more.

blimko

iTrader: (1)

ok i dont even wanna explain this but i guess i will have too...shah your are an idiot and need to be slapped. let me start off by talking about your inflation explaination...back when you bought premium gas for 35 cents...your car was only worth about 4,000..that car is now worth 20,000 or up...35 cents to 3.00, and 4,000 to 20,30, 40,000? im not seeing a huge increase in fuel cost as lots of people like you claim. and another thing..what makes you think that its getting harder to refine oil?? we have been refining oil in the same method for WAAYY over 100 years. it is not getting harder to refine it..we just are choosing not to refine it...so lets throw your statement out the window. IIRC gasoline was once considered a by-product and was used as a cleaning solvent and/or simply thrown out. WE ARE NOT RUNNING OUT OF OIL..WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF SMART PEOPLE.

Toehead

Ethanol is alcohol.


The drag guys run methanol, another type of alcohol. Methanol is very corrosive and not practical for an every day car.

blimko

iTrader: (1)

besides that just get over all of it. we are not gonna run out of oil ever ever ever in a whole billion years we will always have it. dont forget its by gallon still the cheapest...if you calculate it out...its almost 6 bucks a gallon of water...now THATS something to worry about considering no doubt in our minds can we run out of water.

SpitotRs305

Read it... all of that garbage... it is like you swallowed a bleeding heart liberal and he keeps vomiting in your throat...


i have never heard of any country that makes people convert their V8s over either

aaaah venice... home off long hair and jesus sandles....oh is that rash on your chest form the 100% hemp shirts? or hugging trees

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

blimko, who was it that said, "formula one runs on alchohol why cant we. ethenol is a FUKIN JOKE",..... & im the idiot?

with inflation, the price of gas hasn't gone up much from what it was 30+ years ago. using that was probably a poor example on my part, but in less than 10 years it went from under a dollar to over 3. thats a big rise in price that outpaced inflation.

most of the oil thats left in the ground here in the USA is harder to get out, notice, i said most, not all.
did you look up oil shale? i'll even give you 2 links,
http://www.grinningplanet.com/2005/1...le-article.htm
http://emd.aapg.org/technical_areas/oil_shale.cfm

also, the oil from the middle east is much different than the oil we have. don't believe me? look it up.

the way oil is refined has changed, greatly. gas is much more pure than it was even 25 years ago. how much sulfur is in gas thats made today? how much was in it 25 years ago?
you've probably never seen intake valves with so much deposit buildup that the motor could barely breathe. in some cases the deposits got that bad in under 20,000 miles, caused solely by the gasoline. i am taking about fuel injected thirdgen F bodies with this heavy of valve deposits.

did you bother reading about hydrogen?
here is the link again,
http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

any time your ready to slap me, im in houston.

Supervisor42

I'd like to weigh in on this. You should look at what alternative fuels are being used cost-effectively today. Both LPG (liquified petroleum gas) and CNG (compressed natural gas) are viable alternatives to gasoline. The only reason hydrogen is being experimented with is it produces no CO² to satisfy the global-warming zealots. It will never be cost effective because of the dollars of electricity to make a "gallon of gas equivelent" is prohibitive and to carry the equivelent of a 12 gallon tank of gasoline you would need a trailer.
Alchohol (ethanol) is being used because it requires little or no modification to the current gasoline fuel systems. It is being used to "stretch" the supply of gasoline. If the demand for it goes up, it will be appearant how cost effective it isn't.
Everyone ignores CNG. It is in abundant supply that will last centuries and only requires being compressed. It is being used successfully today (decades actually) by fleet vehicles, most of which still have their current gasoline fuel system intact and are "dual fuel".
The only thing that is missing from it's use being widespread is a distribution system. Chevrolet V8's run fine on CNG and have for decades.
If the supply of gasoline runs low and the price goes up, you will see CNG take over, not hydrogen.
(and once again, I'm happy that god put California as far away as possible from Alabama)
Edit: If the people of California had any sense they would be worried more about shortages of water and electricity. These are REAL problems that could lead to the collapse of their civilization in the near future, not just something to power their cars.

maxrochatansky

Is this some kind of compensation for frustrations in daily life, swinging a gigantic pair of ***** from behind your computer ?

I gave the haters (you know who you are) my full street address , where are you guys ? Dont tell me your afraid you might get the **** beat out of you ?

After all , I'm just sitting here in my hemp shirt hugging the tree in my front yard


Denn_shah , thanks for the www.switch2hydrogen.com link ! Great stuff !!

SpitotRs305

hey... thought you needed to remind everyone what type of bleeding heart liberal you really are? no... then why bring this back up after more than a month?

really your full street address... huh i didnt realize that "hugging the tree in my front yard" was a actual address

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

we wouldn't have a gas problem if we were allowed to drill more than 10% of the continental shelf. And the other problem is we don't have enough refineries. and FYI it takes 100 tons of coal to charge one electric car (popular mechanics) and in the 70's we were going to freeze, now we are going to burn up and in 35 years we will be buying jackets b/c we might just freeze to death again.
Does anyone have a brain or do we just believe anyone on TV? It's called NON bias research. look it up ( no really do it!) I did and i changed my mind about al gores THEORY. (steps off soap box)
a few things in life make me mad, ignorant people calling other people stupid when in fact they just follow the rest of the cattle to the butchers.

Bigseth

iTrader: (11)

It has and can be done, I suggest you watch this video. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...92194168790800
you cant believe popular mechanics. That is a GE owned publication and is very biased to large oil and big government. Natural gas is also cheaper and clean burning as well. Ethanol only yeilds 10% more energy that it takes to produce it so its not a viable resource. Hydrogen on the otherhand can be produce from cold fusion, which has been done and doesnt polute a thing.
One last thing, If you think gas prices are high because of the american people, think again. Prices are high because the american dollar isnt worth a thing. The federal reserve borrows hundreds of billions a year from china and russia and there fore making our money worthless, also everytime they lower the intrest rate our money becomes worth less.
We are almost soley dependant on china. We dont even have the capacity to manufacture anything at all in america any more. Everything we had infastructure wise has been sold for pennies on the dollar to foreign countries. If people would realize that we live in a debt based monetary system, not a gold backed one anymore, and actually understood how money works and were it comes from, and how the federal reserve and IRS were unconstitutionally and illegally created, then we would be way better off. Also dont shop at walmart there one of the biggest reasons for the demise of american small business.

to quote Blimco
"WE ARE NOT RUNNING OUT OF OIL..WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF SMART PEOPLE."
Its sad but thats so true. LOL

Seth

Pennocks91ws6

ethonol, or a varient like e85 would be the best bet for our cars, just minor mods to the fuel system, and we'd have 115 octane burnin away. its not that irelivant of an idea

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Sheesh guys, this has very little relevance to 3rd gens anymore... And lets all get along here eh? We can all get together and hug the *same* tree, as long as we don't have any honda's nearby

Hydrogen is one choice for an alternative fuel, unfortunately until we come up with a way to make it cheaper than the alternatives, and easier to store (small molecules "leak" through almost every material, except for the muey expensive stuff), the alternatives will win.

I work in the industry that pumps natural gas from the ground, to pipelines, to your homes for heater, electrical power generation, etc etc. So I know a few things about it and it's usage, so i'll shed some light on this topic for those that are interested:

Anyway, these pumps (well, compressors to be exact) what drives them to compress this natural gas? Usually big reciprocating 4 stroke engines. Think of a Chevy V-8 where the block is the size of a cube van. Or your house. Depending on the engine. And it burns....? Natural gas

It can produce GOBS of NOx CO and CO2, when it's in a rich burn variety, or with a catalytic converter, or a lean burn style (running 32:1 AFR, vs 16:1 the norm for natural gas) then it produces very little emissions.

We're talking 90% methane here for "normal" natural gas, and we can get that from many other sources (which we are using in this decade actually). Landfills, sewage treatment plants, etc, give off methane gas which can be burned in these engines. This is similar to biodiesel, except a spark ignited compressed gas fuel compared to a compression ignited liquid fuel. If these two fuels replaced gasoline and conventional diesel respectively, i'd be just fine You'd get some funky smelling exhaust though

Jason1313

iTrader: (3)

More fuel for the fire, hehe!

Cost of Gas is going up, because oil companies want it to go up.
Why do they raise the price of gas, cause they can!!

atomicskr

Hey guys... here's my two cents since everyone is throwing there's in. I work for a bus company and all of our 252 buses run on CNG. It uses an injection system similar to throttle body, has something that looks like a burner on a gas stove in the intake side. Also uses two air regulators to take fuel pressure from 3800 psi (max) down into the low 100's. The technology is great and very reliable. The emissions are much cleaner than either diesel or gasoline. The only problem I could foresee would be building the infrastructure... our fueling site cost $12 million and pumps 500 gallons worth of fuel tank to 3000psi to achieve the same range as a 100 gallon diesel tank. Not sure where we'd find room in a 3rd gen for that capacity. Also, as a reply to Sonix... the exhaust has no smell whatsoever.

Also, anyone interested in electric cars should check out the movie "Who killed the electric car?" kinda left leaning but interesting none the less.

DENN_SHAH

iTrader: (1)

Supervisor42, hydrogen can be produced using solar power, the link i posted says that.
right now, solar cells are still pretty expensive, but that may change,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0405171830.htm
also, in the hydrogen link, http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/, they say driving range on hydrogen in the vette they are using is over 600 miles per fill with 2 sets of tanks, no trailer needed.
the tanks are also very expensive, but that too will come down if they are produced in large enough numbers.
the vehicles they are using still have the factory fuel system intact & fully operational.
right now ethanol & CNG are good alternatives, i don't disagree with that. but we also need to look to the future, as the price of solar cells come down other technologies will become more affordable & more widely used, & i believe hydrogen may well be one of them.

and before i get flamed, no, i do not buy into the eco-whackos' line that CO2 is causing global warming, just like i didn't buy into their line about R-12 causing the so called hole in the ozone

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

Yea, exhaust from a natural gas engine has no smell, CO and NOx don't have odors, they still punch holes in the ozone and can kill you though. But the amount of those coming out the tailpipe depend on AFR ratio and catalytic converters, so assuming those buses have the same type of environmental regulations as any other road vehicle, they have catalytic converters, and emit next to NIL for emissions

Solar cells won't be getting cheaper IMHO. The metal that's required to make them (and I continually forget what that is... I want to say platinum?) Is a precious metal that's very expensive, and we don't have very much of it on this little planet of ours. Unfortunately (again, IMHO) we can't do a lot with solar energy, because we don't have enough of that metal to make enough of them to make a dent in our energy needs.
Then again it all comes back to "smarts". We should be able to design solar cells using old sawdust and rat droppings, rather than requiring this *ONE* type of metal. We're smarter than that, and i'm waiting for the technology to catch up

Blue_Thunder

iTrader: (1)

One word, Biodiesel-very cheap to make yourself. and very easy to get because fast food resurants have to pay people to take there used cooking oil away and we could take it from them for free. I saw online a 1987 jimmy that runs on biodeisel. All they have to do to the diesel motor is replace all the fuel lines because rubber and biodiesel don't mix and insulate the gas tank so the biodiesel doesn't get to cold and turn into a geliton. The 4x4 jimmy gets 35-42 mpg in the city. also its worth knowing that the first diesel engine made my diesel himself ran on peanut oil. Plus biodiesel is 100% clean. All you smell coming out of the tailpipe is the sell of french fries

online170

Good ole uncle sam thinkin. Blow **** up, take wut ya need, and let the rest handle what comes their way. And we get all bent outa shape when someone robs a store to feed their family.

Dont get me wrong, u two are both on extreme ends of what your sayin, but ur both right. Its not gonna run out in our life times, but it doesnt mean, you should run ur car extra rich and leave that gas leak just cuz ya can.

When oil DOES run out, running cars is gonna be the last of the worries. Look around you right now, where ever you are, whatever your doing, something, or almost everything around you, has something derived and produced from petroleum.

Supervisor, youre absolutely right. Im have family in Pakistan, and from a recent trip there, i saw just how much CNG is used. Its readily useable on almost any engine, but it brings your power down to about 1/2. Its terrible to start, and you run low on it very very quickly. However, all you need to do, is rig up a compressed air tank to your vehicle, and feed this stuff to your carb.

Ofcourse, with a few mods, it can be made to run MUCH better, like a hotter spark, higher compression, new cam, etc etc... Very cheap, and very plentiful. Being used successfully.

Thats all fine and good, but our cars arent diesel. We would need a new cyl head to make this work.


We should all work on a car that runs on fuel like the DeLorean from back to the future. Put garbage in, and you travel so fast, youre able to travel through time.

ryan91rs

iTrader: (1)

this is starting to get ugly.....

and if a car is diesel bio-diesel is awesome, more HP TQ and it smells like what it was cooking. And yes you have to get a conversion b/c bio diesel eats rubber lines but it's worth it!

Brother Al

Here's my : maxrochatansky: I'm glad there's people thinking out of the box, because there is going to be a gas crisis looming. I don't agree with everything you said, but I think that we may all need to start thinking about fuel issues and costs. I'm a Republican, so I'm not a bleedin heart liberal. Politics aside. Bigseth IS right, the value of the American dollar is horrible as compared to other countries and the Euro. Hell, even the Canadian Dollar is worth almost as much as ours now, thats pathetic! Our Treasury has borrowed us so deeply into debt that pretty soon we'll be giving away our US Gold Reserves to China. The US economy is a shell of business names, with factories and jobs in China. Many US citizens with college degrees get paid crappy salaries. China is sucking up huge amounts of Oil, Steel, and other natural resources. India is not far behind them. The US has only 400 million or so people, China has almost half the worlds population now and I'm sure they all like to drive too. Good ole George and many members of Congress are spending billions of dollars on this stupid Iraq war and foolish crap like bridges to nowhere in Alaska. "Just borrow more $$". The result is the cost of everything going way up with inflation. In 1994 I paid about $1 for premium gas and $3 a gallon for 104 octane Sunoco, in less than 15 years, its all triple the cost. Oil sources are not scarce, but our ability to pump it and transport it is limited and it is becoming extremely expensive for Americans to refine it. Our vast sources of oil reserves in the US are of much poorer quality, full of sulfer, and quite expensive to refine. Its actually cheaper to refine Arab oil than it is to refine most of the US produced oil. Oil shale is even more expensive to refine as it is full of sand and other impurities. Other nations can buy Arab oil cheaper because they're money is worth more in the free-trade markets. American money is becoming much like the Russian's money when the Soviet Union collapsed and it wasn't good for anything but fancy toilet paper. We're not that bad yet, but we really need to start thinking out of the box when it comes to fuel for our toys. The world is not coming to an end, i hope, but don't crap on people if they try to ask an honest question and you don't know the answer!

Sonix

iTrader: (1)

hehe, actually as of today you have to pay $1.04 to buy one of our dollars. We are above. So i'm no longer taking your funny monopoly american peso's at par anymore. hahaha, I lived long enough to say that, i'm impressed.

online170

Unfortunately, the middle east isnt the only ones cashing in on the oil. U guys might have a heart attack if you knew wat the saudi public paid for gas. Its sold for profit from east to west. But the retailers in the west are makin money too. I know of examples first hand in both cases.

Saudi arabia, only recently introduced a new grade of gasoline. Actually, the old "regular" just got bumped up to "premium" and they introduced a lower octane as thier regular. The only two grades availible are 91 and 94 octanes. For the equivalent of about 8 cents a litre. (sorry guys, not sure what that translates to for $/galon). But even the 60s didnt see prices like that.

Bigseth

iTrader: (11)

Soon the dollar, peso, and what ever you canadians use will all be called the AMERO when they pass that NORTH AMERICAN UNION, there already building a highway from texas to canada I 69 or something like that. There gonna ship the stuff into mexico from china and ship it through out the us and canada so we will be completly cut out of the loop.

Brother Al

Sonix: I saw that last night on the business report! OMG! Me thinks the US economy is about to collapse! I think I might have to retrace my grandparents paths back to Canada. How's the anthem go? " Oh Canada....LOL! Hmm, I guess I might have to convert my "Bird to Hay Power!......How much would it cost to rig up my 'Bird with a horse collar?
-
Seriously though, Can a small block Chevy be converted to Hydrogen Power? Even if it requires a lot of mods, it is a great question and should be looked at. Hell, if we could get the jump on this, the smog ***** would be off our tails! My biggest concern/question is: Will we turn into a mini Hindenburg if we rupture the fuel system or crash?

Brother Al

nice PM!