Savage388

While i was doing intake and valve cover gaskets I took a peek at the casting #'s on the heads to see the dreaded 882. How much ( or how little) hp am i making With this combo
750 cfm edlebrock performer carb
performer rpm intake
mild flat tappet cam (dont really know)
Flat tops
short rod/400 crank
Not what i was hoping for but for 2500 for the car what do you expect i guess.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Depends on the cam. Although the 882s are terrible heads, so i can't really see much over 300fwhp if it's a mild cam and it is indeed a 383 and not a 350.

I sold an old pair for 50 bucks lol

Savage388

It is a 383 for sure, and while the guy before me didnt really know anything about it, id say its something like 470 ish lift it does have a noticeable idle. The thing certainly doesnt pull like a 383 should very disappointing.

1gary

The money after covering in the bottom end to handle the output is spent on the top haft. Man I could easily spend from 5 grand to 75 hundred on EFI induction,heads,cam and kit,exhaust. It is kind of a shame to cheap out on a 383 like that. And short of the Bowtie Vortecs,the production Vortecs are not a answer for a 383.

Savage388

yea it makes no sense but its what you get. I really dont have too many options especially with the flat tappet cam and its not exactly a fresh build. I'd have no problem doing vortecs but spending big money on heads just seems really dumb right now. May as well get a 6.0 lsx for 500 and start over before completely rebuilding this thing with new parts.

sofakingdom

iTrader: (1)

What does "flat tappet" have to do with anything?

Savage388

It's harder to get good numbers to support big heads and keep reliability (ie eating cam lobes). no point in having good heads without a cam or vice versa. if you have any good ideas im open to it.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

A good flowing head will always be an improvement unless you go for big intake ports and huge valves. For a 383 with a mild cam just pick something that has a 180cc intake port and you should be fine and probably make another 100hp as long as its not one of those pro comp deals.

1986Z28OWNER

iTrader: (1)

I beg to differ.

1gary

OK I'll bite. Skimmed over your build. Want to tell you I am haft of a partnership building/selling performance engines for 40 yrs. Production Vortecs have limited material for intake runners and the tech about Vortecs is the rough surface in the runners is what makes them Vortecs that keeps the air/fuel suspended. Smooth port them and it destroys the Vortec effect. Putting in 202's is akin to a bottle neck given the limited runner size even with pocket porting. Aside from a flow bench which I commend you for having,you have to understand the air fuel dynamics. Sure doesn't hurt to have a $250,000 programed CNC machine to truly be able to port match.

So tell me how you get the production Vortec's to the Bowtie runner size(the "smaller" ones) of 180cc or larger ones of 200cc. I don't think it is happening.

1gary

Now those smaller version Bowtie's at 180cc would be great for a 355,but marginal for a 383. A target cc for a street 383 would be in the range of 195cc.

The summary is the production Vortecs are too small or a 383.

DeltaElite121

A cam that is broken in correctly shouldn't have any issues.. and for those of us that are paranoid, there's always premium cores for like $20 more. Starting from scratch with another used motor is fine, but you're digging a really deep hole by doing it because that's even more money out of your pocket.

I vote for new cylinder heads matched for a 383. Those 882's are terrible. Glad I got rid of mine before I actually dropped the motor in.

Savage388

im thinking ill do that over the winter now that it has less than a month until storage. Only problem is now i dont have too much confidence in what the builder did to get this. I mean how many other corners did he cut. Im still going to look for cheap heads, if not its lsx and ill sell this for good money. Plenty of r****cks in my area that would jump on it. I'd really like to get a deal on some nice heads...

Savage388

Ok why the hell would someone bother with a combo that requires double springs on 882 heads? I thought double springs were only for high rpm and or lift. something im missing?

DeltaElite121

You have no idea what the cam specs are in the motor currently. Chances are they upgraded the springs to accomodate a larger cam profile.

Savage388

Yea but wouldnt single springs be fine for a mild engine like this. He even went and put in screw in rocker studs on these things. now im thinking the cam isnt as mild as i thought originally and might be a good runner with bigger heads.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Vortecs are not perfect for a 383, but if you plan a build out well, you can make Vortecs work REALLY nicely. They are not ideal, but they are worlds better than ANY other factory iron or aluminum head. Just dont cam it up and expect them to spin past 6000 RPMs and you'll make great power and great torque. Stay moderate on the cam and they work fine. Not great, but fine. Way better than the 882's, but you likely have flat top pistons which makes Vortecs a non-option.

1gary is right, and theres a good argument to be made about the final real world cost of Vortecs vs brand new aftermarket aluminum heads (not pro comps) not being so far apart, but that depends on a lot of factors. Vortecs will support nearly 400hp on a 383 built with their limitations in mind and be very streetable.

Savage388

I realized vortecs wont happen with the 64cc chambers as i dont plan on changing pistons for sure. would a 72 cc chamber be enough for almost 10
:1 compression as they are pretty cheap on summit. Right now the cam makes it soft down real low but id like to spin it out to no more than 5500 to make this thing live a bit longer. I still Kind of wish vortecs were an option as i could get a used pair right now with my budget. oh well.

1gary

The misconception comes about when Vortecs are somewhat effective for 350/355 use given the smaller c.i. guys think they are the same for the larger 383's.

I hear all the time from guys that have had some sort of production head on their SBC and spent money on them,make a move to a quality aftermarket head saying they never knew their engine had that kind of overall output. What bugs me is the waste of money not getting what was needed in the first place.

There isn't a end date on these builds or shouldn't be when the trade offs are greater then the benefits when if it only means holding off saving more money to get what is needed. Do-overs increase costs alot.

Savage388

I dont plan on doing anything over so what ever i put on there is going to be on there for a while. I dont mind iron and i know summit has some good aluminum ones but what else is out there for cheap? Im still cant get the idea of a carb 6.0 swap out of my head for some reason.

DeltaElite121

a 6.0L swap is not going to be a cheap transition. You really need to figure out what your goals are and then decide how you want to apply your money.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Thats the problem with your advice. "Somewhat effective"? Vortecs are by far the best OE cylinder head for the Gen I smallblock chevy. The problem is effectiveness is relative. If your idea of effective is a set of $1000+ aluminum heads, of course Vortecs are barely effective and awful. You think everyone with a mild 350 needs a $2k forged rotating assembly, and if motors that need $1000 crankshafts ares your standard for acceptable then it's no wonder Vortecs arent good enough. Compared to a set of AFR's, Vortecs are terrible on any engine. Compared to a set of 882's, Vortecs are incredibly effective. It's relative.

If you're on a budget and it makes sense for you to go with Vortecs and you can compensate for their shortcomings, they are not a bad choice for a 383. So they have smaller ports than ideal for a 383, so what? That just limits your usable RPM range, you can still hit the same or higher hp numbers that you can in a 350, and you can do it while making more torque, more vacuum, and turning less RPMs. They're still 350-425 fwhp heads with a streetable V8 and they will make WAAAAY more power than the vast majority of bubba-built 383's will.

A 383 would benefit from a larger port, sure, but dont act like Vortecs are a travesty on a 383. A travesty on a 383 is 882s or 993's or 193's etc. Vortecs are servicable and if built properly can make for a nice fun street engine. Should be enough to get a car into the 12's easy.

Im not saying not to do it, but add up the cost of an F-body oil pan, F-body intake(or LS6 intake or Fast intake), F-body accessories, and a new transmission, and then you have to deal with the conversion engine mounts, conversion crossmember, and if you really want to stay carb, you'll need to buy a $500 intake + spark control setup. Its a GREAT idea, but make no mistake it is not cheap even if you start with a truck engine.

Even though I just told Gary Vortecs are great for 383's, I dont think they suit your case at all since you have flat top pistons. Look into the following:

http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performan...ductId=1593012
(Pro-filers)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-162111/
(Brodix IK200's in Summit box... allegedly)

http://www.jegs.com/i/Blueprint-Engi...ductId=1630159
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361582

RHS makes some really nice affordable heads in this range too. Just dont get pro comps.

Savage388

Thanks for the head suggestions, do you know if the blueprints come with slightly bigger chambers? I think the summits come with 72cc chambers which should keep comp ratio down. As far as the 6.0 swap goes it is sort of crazy but i can get a motor and trans for less than a thousand but all the conversion costs will add up quickly i suppose.

1gary

Now,now,now.Let's not make me sound like it's the top line parts of nothing. There is one hell of a difference between the production line Vortecs and the Bowtie ones.The fact of the matter is RHS is one of my favorite head companies,but in his case they have the chamber size but not the intake runner size or they have the intake runner size with too small of a chamber size for his flat top pistons. Now Iron Eagles have a head that is 180cc intake runner in a 72cc chamber size which is getting closer to the target of 195 cc intake runner.

Now you ask a number of members who have gone through upgrading parts in a build,I venture to guess there isn't one of them that wouldn't tell you how much more it took to do it that way.

Wrap you head around this.............Bigger engines require more.Truly it is that simple.

1gary

I just went through building a 383 that even with dished 18cc pistons the iron heads are somewhat limited.The Iron Eagle 180's are closer to the target size for a 383 of 195cc and do come in 72cc chamber size. Kind of sucks the aftermarket doesn't serve better the middle of the road builds.


Soo here is my advise(I think for the second time ),run the 383 as is and start the path to a LS swap by atleast buying the donor saving money towards the LS swap. You know you can have 2/3's of the money invested in a 383 and never have all the benefits of the LS.

The other thing is all the extra costs you listed.Well if you start thinking if someone else built,why can I??. And if you don't have the tools and equip right now,that kind of money spent is something that you will benefit from as a swapper for the rest of your life. Ya know the"built not bought thingie". Your going to find that in no one cares more than you about those parts and your likely to build something better than what you could buy anyways.I can't begin to tell you guys how many times we built custom headers because there wasn't any available.None of it junk pcs either.

Savage388

Since the car will be put away for quite a while i have some time to get everything in order toward my goals. The more i think about it your right that ill run this as is until i have some money and i can start the swap or it blows up and i have to do something. its no monster but it still has more power than any stock thirdgen so its not all that bad. The im plenty capable of doing most everything the for the swap although i cant fabricate at all, i cant even weld.

1gary

Yrs ago I couldn't weld worth nothing.I surrounded myself with professional welders that where friends and had interests in hot rods. I had the shop and they needed a place to work. From them I learned.

There are a number of programs in night high schools that teach welding.It's worth attending or many of the shops that sell welders also have schools. It's a skill your never regret learning. And there again,don't buy the most expensive welder,but a decent second hand 220 name brand wire feed gas mig.

Now stick to your program and moving forward look to build a good LS not wasting anymore money on 383's.

Once your ready to do the swap,you'll have a 383 short block to sell to help grease the wheel so to speak.

Damon

LS conversion isn't cheap or easy. Sure you can buy the core motor for cheap, but everything else is buy or fabricate to make it work. The costs add up quick. If you really want it, then do it. But don't look at it purely like a doller-per-horsepower equation. It's a different sort of project than that.

It would be difficult to overestimate the improvement you would see by simply installing a better set of heads on that motor. I agree to a certain extent with the running argument, above. Better heads will really let you unlock it's potential. If you're not leaving 60HP on the table with those 882s I'll eat the car one bolt at a time.

Vortec would be a significant improvement but they require a different intake and will need to be modified to work with the lift your cam is producing (like the Scoggin Dickey modified Vortecs, for instance). Also, the 64cc chambers (which are closer to 62 in reality) will shoot compression to the moon on a flattop 383. And the ports are marginally too small to really work on a 383 in the upper RPMs.

Or you could spend a few bucks more and buy some really GOOD aftermarket heads. I have used enough sets of AFRs that I have long since past the point of being "objective" about their performance. They could be the best out-of-the-box heads ever made for the Gen1 small block. Everything I've put them on they make serious power. A set of the little 180s would be fine (still significantly bigger than Vortecs or your 882s). I can also make the case for the slightly larger 195s, even on a mild 383 like yours. Available in 72cc chamber size, they won't raise compression out of pump gas-friendly range. And they'll take your current intake manifold.

I still own my first set of AFRs (old 190s, long since out of production). They sill blow a lot of today's entry-level aftermarket performance heads into the weeds almost 10 years later. I've used them on 3 different engines, including the mild 383 blower motor in my Malibu currently. They'll probably go on a 4th engine before I'm done with them.

YOU WILL NOT REGRET SPENDING MONEY ON GOOD HEADS. I never have.

1gary

Damon,
It's a case of NOT spend any money on his 383 and applying that money towards a LS and LS swap.

Damon

Oh, I get it. I just ask that you consider that LS swap carefully and fully. Always sounds great at the "talking about" level but when it comes to actually doing it the costs are higher and the difficulty level greater than some people thought they were signing up for.

But if that's the path you are determined to go down, why bother posting up about the current combination at all? If it's capable of moving the car under it's own power it's good enough until you get the motor in there you really want. Don't touch anything on it.

Savage388

Ill consider the swap carefully over the winter. i have by no means ruled out either options although the afr's are way out of my range. I had originally posted up to see how much or how little my 383 had to see where i was just curious i guess.

Damon

That's my point, actually. If a $1500 set of AFRs is out of your price range, then an LS swap is even further out of your price range when you add everything up.

Savage388

I can come up with the money for the afr's for this but buying those and just bolting them on wont be using them to their full potential so i would have to swap cams, which i previously said im not a fan of a high lift flat tappet. What i would be paying all the money for in an ls swap would be a better starting point for power and durability, as well as transmission choices because bolting a t56 or 4l60 up to a ext balance 383 is expensive. Its not like i dont want afr's, ive seen them on the dyno and man to they run.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Power is about how much air you can get in an out of the engine. You can move more air through it by making the cam bigger -> opening hte valves more, for longer, or by making the heads flow better so that more air can flow through them. Just because most people do both doesn't mean you have to do both. If anything putting a big cam on a car with stock heads is a BAD idea, but putting great heads on a car with a stock cam is NOT a bad idea.

The trouble is when you get heads specifically sized to only work in the higher RPM ranges. Like using 200+ cc heads on a stock-cammed 350. It will make it sluggish since the port velocity will be very low at lower engine speeds, and the small cam means it wont work well at higher RPM's. But 180-200cc heads on a larger 383 are about just right for a streetable combination, and throwing AFR's on there in the 180cc range with even a tiny stock cam will still net you a decent power gain, and you can throw a nice big cam in it later. AFR's dont NEED higher lifts and huge cams. The larger ports need higher lifts to make more power than the smaller ports, but thats about it. You'd still see a big improvement everywhere in the RPM range.

Do you know what cam you have? "Mild flat tappet" is plenty for AFR heads. If your cam is on the smaller side, just get the smaller 180cc ports. Not really a big deal. The 180cc ports will still make a TON of power even with a big cam later on. You're talking about some of the best flowing off the shelf heads you can get.

Sure you wont be "using them to their potential", but most people dont. Everyone makes sacrifices for practicality. Vortec heads on a 350 can hit over 400hp, but the camshafts you need to make that power really take away from all the big advantages of using Vortec heads. You lose your fuel economy and wide flat torque curve, and you end up with a peaky engine that makes nice peak hp numbers but isnt really going to really be all that fast or fun to drive. Past around 375-400hp Vortecs really start to hold back the rest of the engine. I know a guy who made over 300hp on a 305 and did low 12's, but the car wasnt all that streetable. The sacrifices you have to make to "use [whatever] to its full potential" usually mean you're giving up practicality. There's more to "full potential" than peak horsepower numbers.


On the other hand you can do an LT1 + cam for $1500 or so and make 400hp and it bolts right onto everything else in the car. Bang for buck the LT1's are hard to beat in the 300-400hp range.

Savage388

I Have no idea what cam is in there. The previous owner ( older guy) was absolutely no help and everything i know now is from me playing detective and finding casting numbers and such. i didnt even know for sure it was a 383 until i found the 400 balancer plate on the back of the crank. The cam isnt anything major i know, but the valve springs, kind of noticable idle and that it's soft at low rpm point give me an idea. If i did get afr's i would take a chance on the 195's because the price is fairly close and the power potential is huge. Although i could come up with money for afr's id like to keep this thing in some kind of budget because i am still a college student and the trans needs attention too. I really like the summit heads for the price, any thoughts on those?
By full potential i dont necessarily mean peak numbers just getting the best i can out of them considering what i have to work with. And yes fun is a much bigger factor that a piece of paper from a dyno, so no i dont care that much about hp bragging id rather have a better driver.

InfernalVortex

iTrader: (4)

Summit heads were Brodix IK series heads. Whatever cc's the summit heads are, cross reference with Brodix IK200 or IK180's. You never know with house brand stuff they can switch around at will. But that was the scoop last I checked. Brodix IK heads are great heads, but AFR's are the top of the heap with Pro-filers (jegs aluminum heads) closing in, but Pro-filer is a new player in the game, and the guy that designed their ports (Darin Morgan I think?) already left their company to do something else. Their heads are making waves but they're still new to the game. With house-brand stuff you never know the quality of the hardware on the heads. Also, Brodix has had issues with valve guides wearing out prematurely from what I've heard. The heads flow great and they're quality castings, but sometimes these things happen. Even Ferraris tend to catch fire and burn to the ground on occasion.

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_25

http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_29

After looking at the chart... even with a mild cam I'd go with the 195's. If you had a 350 I'd go 180s but with a 383 just go for it man. Even if you decide to ditch the AFR's down the road and go Gen III+, the AFR's hold their value nicely. They probably are going to sell used for far closer to their new price than any other aftermarket aluminum head.

Note the AFR 195's, they flow 274 cfm at .400 lift. Vortecs only flow around 230 cfm max at around .460 lift. (They dont tend to flow any more cfm after the mid .400s in lift) Thats a pretty drastic difference, and the 195s have a big enough port that with a big cam your 383 can still breathe at high RPMs.

By comparison, and remember flowbenches are like chassis dyno's, they'll all read a little different and sometimes the testing standards vary a little. Try not to take numbers from different sources as if they're carved in stone. But to get a general idea...

http://instructor.mstc.edu/instructo...20Database.htm

This page alleges 882's flow 204 cfm at .400 lift. Vortecs are around 225 cfm, and AFR's are at 274 cfm. See the jump? They say 083 heads flow 186cfm at .400 lift. Interesting. Their vortec numbers say 239 cfm max at .500 lift... thats abou 10 cfm higher than Ive seen anywhere else, so just goes to show take things with a grain of salt. However, by their metric, 882s flow 205 cfm, Vortec 240 cfm, and then there are AFR's at 275 cfm.

AFRs are a huge improvement, and the numbers at .400 lift are high enough that even the mildest of cams would see a huge improvement gonig from 882s to AFR 195s.

Z28ricer

iTrader: (2)

5HP, I would definetly guarantee it is at least making 5 HP, for sure.

1gary

$1,500 for heads,cam and kit gets him well on his way to buying a donor LS.

There isn't a 383 out there that will match the gas mileage of a LS

He will be locked into premium gas for the rest of the time he owns the 383.

He shouldn't restrict the time to just over the winter for a build. Anything better(a LS) is worth waiting for until you can finish it.

He said he wanted a T56 and with a external balanced 383 that would really eat into the money for a LS and swap.Money that if he did afterwards want a LS would be wasted.

I am conflicted about 195 to 200cc runners.Especially when he said he wanted to limit the rpm to 5,500. I don't agree the overall performance is one such that with the larger runners wouldn't effect the bottom end.When you have a smaller cam,ok you're not using the heads to it's full potential,but your also trading off some of the bottom end too. Remember that SCR's dictate cam choices that dictate head choices.And I am saying that for overall rpm ranges.So it's not like he with flat top pistons,cheap stroker kit and rods,and more than likely a stock deck block, has a open playing field.Because of that,195cc would be about the max and maybe 180cc would be even better.

I am not so sure this isn't a stock headed 400 and not a 383.He needs to get the casting number off the back of the block.If it is indeed a 400,then its a moot point for a head/cam swap.

1gary

As I think about this more,if it is a 400,that would be logical why he is down on power. I mean if it is no more than a stock 400,what those didn't barely even crack 200hp at the crank. That would also explain the previous owner's memory problems.

Savage388

Its not a 400 its an 010 350 block, that was one of the first things i checked. Plus its it runs cool so it cant be a 400. Thats my point about the ls swap vs heads/cam. its more about the package as a whole, and time isnt really a factor either as i ca only buy so much at once.


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1gary

Well you surely did say a month full saying it about the package as a whole for a LS swap.

1gary

But I guess I'm still kind of confused.Your first post said it was the short rod 400 crank.The old school stroker was to turn the mains down on a 400 crank.If it is external balance 400 crank it would be a basic cast crank that has been turned already.If it is a flat top piston on a block that hasn't been decked with 400 short rods the SCR's would be way off especially with your current heads.All that is a game changer for replacement heads/cam choices.Does this engine has a thick H/B'er??. What does the flexplate look like that makes you think it is from a 400??. And if it is truly a 400 turned down cast crank,I wouldn't rev that very high or press you luck by throwing alot at it.
The part the sucks is you back tracking on someone else's build and the more you peel the onion for info the more money it takes to make it right.

It goes hand and fist with people always wanting to cheap out and the second owner suffering because of it.

Savage388

Yes and the onion peeling has already cost me plenty of time and money. I shouldnt have said it was a 400 crank/ short rod b/c i dont know for sure but there is a balance plate on the back of the crank between the flywheel and trans that cause my ring gear/ starter to go bad and the 400 big 400 balancer up front. the only other thing i can say is the previous owner had it for like 12 years and it had been like that when he bought im feeling this has been around for a while. the more i peel the less i like and i think it will get out of hand quick with this thing if i keep peeling.

1gary

I've been down this road before with customers.I just hate the thought of you spending good money after bad.......

LS3CHEVELLE

IF THIS STILL APPLIES, CHECK OUT THE POST ON LS1TECH BY "MEANYELLOWZ" ABOUT A BUDGET LS ENGINE BUILD,
TOM----LS3CHEVELLE

ImBrandon

You have 383. Put some heads and a hsr and it will run great. No need for an ls motor if you have a 383 you'll have all the power you'd ever need. You're gonna need a built trans and a tough rear. If money is an Issue play the hand you were dealt. Gotta pay to play