vwdave

This is going to start one hell of a flamewar....

I am starting to get annoyed by the delusional 305 owners. Over my few years of membership, I have never seen a collective group of owners that believe because their car has a V8, it can beat most anything.

Last night I read a thread that basically a guy had a worked 305 and claimed to beat a modded S4 by 8 cars. That is blatent bull****.

I see them coming in here all the time with their "What can I beat?" threads, or my personal favorite, they ask if they can beat a car that is so OBVIOUSLY out of their league. Sometimes I wonder if that engine comes supplied with a pound of crack that these people smoke to somehow think they can win.

I used to have a 305 TBI, trust me, it was one of the slowest cars I have EVER driven. It took me getting a L98 to finally get it to move. But unfortunately, these imports and stangs are getting faster everyday. I am having to go with a 383/AFR setup to keep up or win.

[/rant]

twobirds

I know that to be true. No crack came with my ole 305, to bad I could of used it to.

Conrad

91ChevyRS

I've driven slower cars there bud. Besides what can you expect from a 3300lb 170hp machine. I take it you left it stock, with a few mods you'd coulve made it faster.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

Last night I read a thread that basically a guy had a worked 305 and claimed to beat a modded S4 by 8 cars. That is blatent bull****.

Its not just TGO go to an audi/vw site and read there street races. You will see trash talk bs whatever the hell u wanna call it EVERYWERE on the internet. Do i agree with it? No. But you just gotta get used to it.

Street racing is so much a driver race sometimes u cant even compare a cars 1/4 times...

vwdave

No, I did bolt-ons, but I swapped a L98 in it afterwards.

And a 200hp car should NOT beat a car that has probably 150 more horsepower by 8 cars. And I have drove a few S4's and owned a 305 and a 350. The 350 shouldnt even touch the S4.

A driver makes up a huge portion of the race, but I donno if ANYONE is that bad of a driver to lose to a 305 camaro in a modded S4.

And most VW/Audi sites dont have kill storys forum. When you do come across one, the ones that do the posting are big turbo cars. I would say the same thing if a stock 1.8T claimed to take out a EVO8 or a STi.

91ChevyRS

S4s come equipped with 340hp and your standard 305 TPI comes in with 205hp.......

With all due respect, a TPI is gonna lose badly to an S4 cause an S4 is more or less an LT1's race.

Whoever says that their "modded" 305 left an S4 in the dust by 3-4 car lengths is insignificant to society. Even if the driver of an S4 doesn't know how to drive, they are stupid proof cars, meaning its impossible to lose to a 305 car even if they had tried. They are built cars.

I know my position, I know my role cause I drive a 305 TBI and I know for a fact that I will get spanked by the newer sedans of today.

I mean for instance, I had a guy whom I know who just kept on telling me how fast his VW golf was and how it was gaining on a 350 TPI Iroc Z, and how he raced several new Eclipses and WRXs, and how he took on a Trans Am. And then he started looking at me and saying that his car is prolly faster than mine. Granted at first I was a little skeptical of racing him because those golf GTI 2.0s can launch very well b/c of their lightweight. And the fact that he had a stick shift made it worse, as well as alot of mods done to it. But I figured, ok if I lose then so what, I know I prolly won't win and even if I do, prolly just barely.


The day came when we raced and I absolutely raped him off the line and I just kept on going and going. My car still had plenty of juice left to go when I let off. And just as I predicted I didn't launch well at all, I spun my back tires for a few seconds which prompted me to let off the gas for a second then go again. He should've had me off the line, but he didn't.

This just goes to show that these 305 guys are not the only people who are like "oh yeah our 13-23 year old cars are faster than the technologically advanced cars of today"

cocky people will come in all shapes, forms or sizes. Granted I don't go to the guy I beat telling him oh yeah your car is slow and it sucks like he did to me. Because, racing doesn't really prove anything, it just proves you have a faster car. Whoopity doo

vwdave

Thank you for pointing out things I already said.

Nate86

The internet is full of BS. The only people 305 owners are hurting are themselves if they believe their cars to be faster than the really are. In that case, I say the more my competition believes that, the better off I am.

Just get over it.

Nate86

And by the way, the guy you were referring to actually has a 355 and a built 700R4. It's not to hard to believe that the Camaro could have won (granted the eight car lead was probably an exaggeration).

leeperryracing

that's what I say too Nate86...get the hell over it!! if you want a fast v8, start with at least a 350 block and the possibilities are endless from there.

91ChevyRS

vwdave

Well, its been 3 years since he posted, and the engine he posted that he had was a 305 bored out.

It didnt make sense to me either at first till someone else pointed out that the thread was 3 years old.

gatoRS92

You guys don't have a clue what you're talking about. My 305 can spank all of you..........

Note that the previous statement was sarcasm. Hey, I know my 305 is slow. I never said it was fast and I haven't personally seen any LO3 owner consider their car to be fast in stock (or anywhere near stock) form. When I bought my RS, I never anticipated to go fast with an LO3. My goal, like many other 305 owners, is to save up for that engine swap. People question me because I have a few mods, which makes no sense seeing as how my actual engine (besides timing) is completely stock. Everything I have invested into my RS will still be there when I eventually get my built 350.

I've posted a few times about racing (and beating) a '96 Mustang GT and a Taurus SHO and probably a couple other cars of that nature that would usually beat an LO3. I've seen quite a few other 305 owners post similar stories. These stories might annoy some of you, but if you don't like it, don't read it. Simple as pie.

leeperryracing

I've seen 305s in the low 12s-high 11's but after an INSANE amount of money spent. I like to be different and original too but not at such an expense when you could gain more for a lot less if you'd been a little smarter to begin with.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

vwdave -

The amount of BS posted on this site is minimal compared to most of the "tuner" forums out there. And when bs is posted on this site, thanks to the vigilant eyes of people that know what they're talking about, it is usually set straight.

I used to own a 305 (LG4) and yeah I thought it was pretty quick. Then I drove a 400 hp 350 and realized that the LG4 was pretty damn slow. Now I own an LT1 and I've actually raced my old car. It was many... many... many... many... BUSLENGTHS. No - not an exageration

The point is, that most of these kids do believe their 305 is quick. And to them, it probably is. It's probably their first V8 car and I commend them on picking an American icon (the fbody) and a V8 as a motor choice. Thank GM they didn't pick a frickin' Honda or a Volkswagen or something.

Don't be so hard on them, just point out relevant facts to the post and let it be. Maybe I should point out to you that L98s never broke 13s from the factory... not exactly record breaking speed. You act like several of the L98 owners here - think you're the top of the mountain or something. Get off it and wait till you get owned by something without 17 inch long runners. In fact if we were closer I'd be glad to show you what a "slow" LT1 can do.

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

If you spend enough money anything can be fast.

If you do the basic mods to the LO3 (cam, heads, intake, exhaust, PROM burning, gears) and throw a huge shot of juice on it, then it's certainly not out of the question. The thing is though that most street races never get to a 1/4 mile. Most that I know of are over by 65mph. I'm not saying that the 305 is a little gem or anything (especially since I switched to a 350), but with enough money and the right parts and LOTS of tuning, 13-13.5 certainly isn't hard to obtain. The import guys have been putting down numbers with 2.5L size motors for a while now . . and this of course is not to say there isn't enough forum BS out there to shift through, but please don't act like it is impossible.

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

It's not impossible at all. I tend to think of 305s as having the same potential as a ford 302. And we've seen them in the 13s and even dipping 12s. Extremely displacement limited but when used to it's fullest it can make some quick times.

91ChevyRS

my goal with the LO3 is high 14s....you have no idea how happy I would be to achieve that goal. Life would be suddenly openly great...

Many people tend to think an LO3 should respond to mods well and if they do exhaust and stuff and it isn't what its cracked up to be they say oh the LO3 sucks, and they dump a perfectly good motor for another motor...


I know my LO3 isn't fast, but it still has some good backup power when you need it, and I really bought the car for its better acceleration then my other slow POS.

Yeah the thing that did 0-60 on a daily basis 15 seconds...

Gunny Highway

iTrader: (1)

Although I know what you're trying to get at, that's an apple and oranges comparison.

Ford 5.0 = big bore, short stroke (it's more comparable to something in between the Chevy 350 and 4.3L, both with good power potential)

Chevy 305 = small bore, long stroke

The 305 shares more attributes in power making ability with the 327 IMO.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

305-TBI Article

... pretty sweet build up on the 305, but I think I might of missed their final conclusion (numbers & times).

Agreed.

vwdave

1, Youre a *****.
2, Youre dumb.

BS is called faster on those sites then here. Here, I have seen the most obvious crap not get called out, and for the most part its praised. But then you guys make me look like a jackass when I am finally the one to say something.

I drive and modify VW's for a living. I also happen to own a brand new GLI. I have beaten alot of cars (and lost to some, dont get me wrong.) I also beat a 305 with it, and spanked a GTI with my camaro in the same day. Kinda funny to say, for $1500 I can make a VW faster than a 305 for $1500, barring nitrous of course.

I raced a LT1 in my L98 and spanked the living hell out of it. I am not scared by yours even if we were close. Mine isnt stock, or anywhere near it.

Dont get me wrong guys, I am almost as die hard Chevy as anyone can be. Just sometimes when I read the threads and some of the replys, I consider selling my car just so I wont have to say that I own the same type of car as some of them.

Stevo

iTrader: (45)

urbanhunter44- What did your car run stock again? Or when you first ran it? Whats it run now?

urbanhunter44

iTrader: (3)

Steve:

my car trapped 100 with just a catback. with some tires shed run high 12s as it sits if i could manage to cut a high 1.7/low 1.8. last time i was at the strip i busted some very impressive 2.3 60 ft times on my nitto street tires it dynoed 300 rwhp/341 rwtq not too long ago. There are still many mods I could do to her however I'm selling her in favor of another thirdgen. She'll have a 360 with bowtie vortec heads and a 220/230 544/544 112 cam

I didn't call names.. now you've gone and done it.



My intelligence quotient out of the picture - at least I can use periods and KNOW when to use them (not to mention apostrophes). Captain grammar.



If something slips by someone it's rare. I usually find myself informing obviously misinformed people upon the misconceptions of these cars all the time. That's not to say I havn't been misinformed myself a few times in the past.

Of course you can make a brand new VW faster than a 20 year old 305 faster for the same amount of cash. That's a ridiculous comparison. The vw probably has more power to start with. Compare a VW of the same year.. say.. 1985. Pick the highest rated VW for that year, compared to the highest rated 305. That would be a G92 LB9. 215 hp, bout 300 ft-lbs of tq. For $1500 the 305 will go faster. No replacement for displacement.

And yours may not be stock, but apparently it still has TPI. And if you havn't replaced that either you're poor or don't know jack **** about going fast. And just so you know.. the LT4 cam is a HORRIBLY mismatched choice for a TPI induction system. I just laughed out loud when I read that. And a K&N filter is hardly a mod. And Flowmasters??? ROFL I don't even need to get started on that. Go back and play with your VWs.. you don't have any business with a 5.7L.

And I explained this in my last post. Most of these posters are kids with their first cars. Guide them in the correct direction, but don't put up a thread telling them all how dumb they are, and randomly insulting various members.

91ChevyRS

What could have been a good reputable discussion is now nothing but a childish attempt at insulting a person who didn't even say anything to deserve to be called names.

I have to agree with urbanhunter on this one, the new VW sedans have become ridiculously powerful, and within the last five years I wanna say they have been putting out powerhouse sedans.

I mean the new Passat with a V6 puts out 280hp! I mean thats more horsepower than the 350 TPI. Come on...

You're comparing a brand new car to an engine thats been inputted to these cars in 86' That's a 20 year difference, you can't do that, its unethical and I have to stop you.

Now you wanna be smart and say "oh yes 1500 dollars can get me more powerful than a stupid 305" ok....good job again 20 year difference thing, but let's go back and take the last year of the Camaros or Trans Ams....2002 with ram air option. 325rwhp...stock......lets spend 1500 dollars on both cars the Passat and the Camaro SS or even Z28, we'll spend those 1500 dollars on the same exact stuff, an exhaust for a Passat, as well as an exhaust for the Z28...intake....whatever point is, the Z28 is ultimately going to respond alot better to those mods.

And for 1500 dollars you can still make a 305 pretty damn powerful

EDIT: And oh yes you previously mentioned that it took you an L98 to finally get it to move....what did the LO3 just not move at all cause that's certainly what I am recieving on this end. The LO3 apparently sucked so bad that it wasn't much better than a pinto. Seriously, the ignorance of some people, too many people put the LO3 down before doing anything to it. And don't tell me oh yeah I did a bolt on exhaust...although that's a start you can't just go and expect the car to be L98 fast, cause that's just not enough. You have to do engine work, air and fuel delivery, computer tuning, alot of stuff with these cars.

mrpopo573

As the owner of a 305 Camaro, I am not dillusional in my appraisal of my speed or et's. However, having grown up with muscle cars and when the family owns dealerships, I have driven slow cars. SLOW cars.

As I see it, the RS 305s stand to be recognized as a great starter car, able to fit the crate of choice and with enough torque and noise to slate your thirst for a true motor until you finish your swap.

And furthermore, why beat down on a group of similiar cars, as all of start out with a handicap, and as far as I'm concerned, a 305 is pretty damn decent.

If I wanted a slow car I would of bought a bone stock civic for twice the price and then spent another 5000 grand making it run like it was never meant to.

Blu91Z28

Here's another slow 305 sporting a TPI manifold!
https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=275813

3.8TransAM

Internet horsepower rules, who are u kidding? :-)

But on a side note, I've seen some crazy doo doo happen.

My first car was a 75 Nova with an inline six auto 1 barrel powerhouse (insert laughing here). I beat a 5.0 5spd with it lol

Retard revved at me and couldnt launch the car without stalling it.

I think I pee'ed myself from laughing so hard as I drove away.

U can have all kinds of power in the world, but if u cant make the car move or put it down when u do make it move, your gonna lose anyway.

Most people have no concept of what fast is. They equate sound with power(loudness) or rpm(7 or 8k). U can really mess these people up if u take them for a ride in something that can actually pull a 12,11 or 10 sec run.

later
Jeremy

PhLaXuS

I've got the 305 and from the beginning I saw it for what it was: a base platform that COULD be made into a relative powerhouse. Problem is...once I've spent 5 grand, I'd prefer to have the extra 78 cubes from a nice 383 which would be more tame in general with any given valvetrain and have much greater possibility for power output than was ever possible with the 305. I see people post statements such as "why waste a perfectly good 305 block?" and all I can think is that while that is a perfectly valid argument, if a 350 block drops right in without any modification, WHY NOT? In the grand scheme of 5 to 8 thousand dollars on a sweet SBC, I'd prefer to go all out...and no, I draw the line at a 350 block for the SAME REASON other people draw the line at the 305 block: I want to see how much I can squeeze out of a particular platform. If I was going for all-out insane-can't-control-it power, I'd get a TT 502 (or higher) and be done with it.

Also, up to maybe 500 or 600 HP (and this is only a guess), the stock 305/350 blocks are fine. A LOT of people bring up the argument of "why not throw in a BBC?". One good reason is that they're hit and miss. Some of the BBC blocks are very weak and I'm not gonna take undue risk with the investment of the engine internals. Any high power engine is a risk, but as in all things, it's best to minimize the risk as much as possible and unless I'm wrong (which I may very well be), the BBC blocks are a gamble. The 305/350 blocks seem pretty solid up to a nice power figure. In my particular case, I'd have to buy an aftermarket block anyway to feel safe running 850HP, so it is in the realm of possibility for me to go with a stronger aftermarket BBC block. I think most people here try to keep things held together with the stock block.

So...HP is all relative. I won't be happy until I get 800+ FWHP, but most seem content with 350-400HP, which IS possible with a 305...especially if you need not follow the emissions laws.

In the end, it does come down to personal preference and the challenge of trying to get as much as possible from the "lowly" 305.

vwdave

Had 250k miles on it and it was dead. The engine was getting replaced regardless.

I have not chosen to go and swap to a HSR as of yet. I realize the car has bigger weaknesses than the intake. Mainly my extreme lack of traction and the weakness of the great 10-bolt rear end.

How is a cam that is slightly bigger than stock "horribly mismatched" to the TPI intake Mr. Guru of all? I would be laughing at loud at your stupidity if I were you. (Youre probably thinking of the much larger LT4 HOT cam.)

My sig is 12-18 months old. I have yet to add the Pro-Built 700R4, or the 383 with AFR heads going in pretty soon. I do have other things going on besides this car you know.

Exhaust system is getting totally changed for 1 3/4" long tubes with electric cutouts and going to be a 3" mandrel bent exhaust all the way back.

I'll go back to my VW's, and you go and comb your mullut (spelled wrong intentionally) and we'll both be happy, right?

As for the spelling, I have just gotten lazy.

Street Lethal

iTrader: (16)

You'd honestly be safer with a Big Block Chevy, especially for the power level that you're looking to achieve. Big Blocks make most of their grunt at lower RPM's, you don't need to spin them that high (not saying that they can't produce at higher RPM's, they just don't really need to)....

I have to disagree here. Big Block Chevy's are very reliable, and will always make more power down low (where it's safe, and where you can really use it, especially on the street) than the small block chevy. The heads (where the power truly lies) can/will always flow a great deal more than any small block cylinder head...

PhLaXuS

As I said, I'm not 100% certain on the strength issue, but I've just heard of more BBC failures than SBC. Could be that people push the BBC's harder thinking they can take it.

I would agree completely that those heads have much greater potential if properly set up!

...and I keep forgetting that the more cubes you got, the lower you have to rev.

I was planning to run with a production SBC, but I get more and more uneasy as time goes by and I've learned to trust these instincts. It's an aftermarket block for me...

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

For $1,200 I built a 312 that pulls a fullsize van to a 15.45 @94 mph 1/4 with a 2.18' 60' time. That would be in the low 13s in a F-body. If it were in a F-body, I would race you anyday.

PhLaXuS

Fast355,

Do you happen to know the link to the thread with your modifications? I've read it before and can't remember what you did. I still think it's great.

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

nope, 305's can't be made to go fast for cheap

LOOK IN SIG FOR MORE DELUSIONS

vwdave

I wouldnt consider your car exactly cheap.

How much is "Cheap" to you? As in total budget cost.

Fast355

iTrader: (2)

Which one were you refering too?

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=336396

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=333368

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/showthread.php

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=329211

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=283217

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=301580

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=297466

https://www.thirdgen.org/techbb2/sho...hreadid=296142

PhLaXuS

Yarga!

I think I may have only seen one thread...I'll read all of those. Thankee!

mw66nova

iTrader: (13)

what part isn't cheap? i've got MAYBE 4K in my whole car, about 2.5K in the drivetrain...most of my stuff is second hand. i just know how to look for good deals and prioritize...along with doing my research so that i don't spend more money than i need to.

when it comes to building these cars, making the drivetrain work together is key. how can you explain the Super Stockers running stock 305 shortblocks running low 11's naturally aspirated?

and just so you know, i bought all of my "expensive" parts as an investment and never spent too much time/money on anything 305 specific. the only things i bought that wouldn' swap over are the pistons...federal moguel 9.5:1 hypers...$10/each! and the crank, which is stock and i got it for free.

i spent more cash on my tranny/converter combo than my whole motor.

91ChevyRS

And that's a bad engine? Sounds to me like the engine proved more than enough by going that long, and I wouldn't doubt for a second that the car would've gone longer. I am in no position to judge on whether or not you maintained the TBI but I will say this, proper maintenance to these cars and they'll be your best friend...

Believe me....I know.


EDIT: I also forgot to mention, that really in order to get somewhere with any car you'd have to spend more than 1500 dollars. 1500 dollars at the very best will get you a full exhaust set up and a couple of other things.

3k is turbo and supercharger area which is where the money and power is at.

vwdave

I didnt say it was bad durability wise. I said they're not great performance platforms. You can make almost any car reasonably fast if you throw enough money at it.