KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

Thank you in advance seriously thank you very much appreciated for all the help: Six_Shooter, fasteddi, DeathStarr89, project89, Dale,KED,

1991 3.1L V6 camaro engine to 3.4L 1994 camaro block Build Project: Goals Reliable Fuel-Efficient looking to get another 330K miles like my 3.1. I think I can reach at least 200-220HP.
Current upgrades: dynomax exhaust 2.5 pipes, Aluminum driveshaft, Chip burned by Fasteddi using MOATES, K&N cold air intake dual snorkel, 700r4 from gm, 9 bolt 3.27 posi disc rear off 89’ iroc-z. 36.7mpg going 65mph to Los Angeles to San Francisco. 16x8 double line iroc-z 1988. Will I be able to build the 3.4 to get 40mpg??

HAS TO BE CALIFORNIA SMOG LEGAL


Fasteddi ( ALDL Cable im going to buy that this weekend may
be I can set it up at least in the next week and you can show me more about the datalogg so u can see what my AFR is like and other stuff.) Also little lost on the WIDEBAND 02 SENSOR KIT ? let me know how much i owe u paypal for your time and also for another chip once i get set up with the cable and datalogg. thank you.


COST/BUDGET PARTS LIST

not to exceed $3300 i should be way under.


Trying to make sure I get my parts list right before I start buying parts so I need some help please…
Im currently driving my car everyday so this gives me time to get this 3.4 engine perfect and im going to have a guy port and clean my block and everything so I just need to tell him what I want and give him the parts etc. he is a family friend of a friend so labor wont be too bad.

Need Help on where the best place to buy these parts NAPA or what type is better etc any suggestions will help.

*Roller Timing Chain (y or n) heard last longer and reduces some friction?
*260 grind delta cam
*Wideband o2 sensor kit
*Rocker Arms..
im willing to pay for the 1.6 rockers 6. and i will buy the feiro valve covers so i wont have cleareance issue? is this correct ?
port the heads ??? size grid ? i can tell the machine shop
exhaust manifolds??? can i get pacesetters or CA legal headers?? our exhaust manifolds are terrible
valve springs, retainers, and locks
Get a set of felpro (blue) head gaskets.chain set. yes or no
New felpro head bolts.
New dizzy O-ring yes or no
lucas oil engine break in additive(at napa)
additive for the cam break in.
Lucas oil engine assembly lube when you put the cam in, lifters, and assemble the heads/pushrods so i have been told need some more details with this.
Get a set of felpro (blue) head gaskets.
whole felpro intake gasket set and water pump gasket set.
New felpro head bolts.

pictures:
current 3.1 v6







3.4 block got everything for 150$ thought i did ok ? got fuel injectors 2 but im going to buy new ones.



not going to use exhaust manifolds or valve covers going to get new fiero ones and power coat them








any advance or help suggestions... and im keeping it a v6 i have already did my exhaust and new tranny and koni and rear end and rotors and egr o2 so im not doing a v8 or ls1 sorry for thinking about it i thought this would be the best for my situation.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I don't think you're going to be able to achieve all of your goals.

You may have to compromise a little on your power goal, because staying Cali emissions legal should be top priority. This one thing really limits you on what you can do, unfortunately.
The best way to get to the power goal is with a gen3 top end swap, but this is not a legal swap from what I understand of Cali smog rules.

I also think the economy goal is a bit lofty, especially again, from using the gen1 top end.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but something has to give here.

project89

iTrader: (1)

yeah as far as i know none of the headers available are cali legal on the 3.1 and 38mpg well thats just not going to happen without a turbo

190hp and 28mph is much more realistic with the set of smog laws u must follow

ur only option for headers is to get the car smog checked with the stock manifolds then replace them with headers. then when its time for inspection u will have to swap the stock stuff back on

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

I might be able to have a Referee buddy hook it up I'm going to talk to him tmrw. Does it fail with headers because of the visual ? Or does it fail on paper? I just hate the poopy stock exhaust manifolds they are a joke. I don't see why there are said to be legal on a 2.8 but not a 3.1 or 3.4? That doesn't make any sense. As far HP is concerned. The 3.4 is 160hp stock with a 260 delta cam and 1.6 rockers and even stock exhaust manifolds a little porting of the head I should be at 190hp with my exhaust set up and cold air intake. And with a good tune I should be perfect. Would be nice to have headers but if I can't get them I don't think it will make or break me. 190hp ~ and 28 mpg highway would be easy to achieve but that is what I'm hoping for.

I have to call delta cams and ask them for a 260 grind cam and what else should i say?

And what should I do to these heads I have?

And South Bay I was going to buy fuel injectors what should I ask for or they will know. I've heard like 16lbs or 18lbs ?

Crank can I upgrade this or go to Al pushrods ?

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

Thank you I'm going to talk to my Referee neighbor buddy see if i can get away with it or at least smog it and then put it on. would it improve mpg or because u probably gain like 4-6hp it evens out so are they a waste of $ or are they worth it?

And I'm using my 3.1 Plenum so it keeps that stock look cheapest place to buy fiero valve covers ?

project89

iTrader: (1)

they dont make aluminum pushrods

the reason the headers arent legal for a 3.1 iirc is they do not have air tube fittings, or an egr fitting or something to that extent

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

A lean burn setting would help get a few more MPGs.
But it would be very illigal in CA, the loons there would not let honda sell the lean burn civics there back in the day.

I use to get up to 28mpg highway in my 5-speed 2.8Lcamaro, but it had a bad IAT and always ran lean.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I think that 190Hp would be pretty realistic on that engine. Believe me thats a good number on the 3.4 if you mod her up. You ever think about getting a little n20 in its system?? A small 50hp shot is good on theses engines when set up right and it is hidden HP so you wont hurt your MPG's with the extra hp. Does cali have any rules about mounting n20 in the car???

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

Not interested in the n20 but thanks for the idea.

Guest

Whoa bro what is going on here An IROC badged, V6, 91-92 ground effects car?!

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

you know you like it !!!

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I like the seats!

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

I think the only way you are going to get much more than 30MPG out of an F-body is to put a 4 cylinder engine under the hood.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

This.

I will say, if you pull 38MPG out of this car, I will be seriously impressed.

Gumby

Wasn't there a Fiero that got into the 40 by heating the fuel with exhaust or coolant?

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

Well my current 3.1 and chip(fasteddi burned) and exhaust, al driveshaft,cai, i got 37mpg driving 65mph.

So with the 3.4 build that's why I was thinking I could maybe do a little better since the 3.4 actually gets better gas mileage than the 3.1

And thank you I love them so Comfortable I had them refoamed love the power seats!

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

CAI normally don't help MPGs.
Unless its headers any exhaust mods on a gas engine normally don't have much effect, thats so long as every thing is properly functioning to start with (no clogged converters, kinked or bent pipe).

oil pan 4

iTrader: (1)

Thats almost the same effect as a warmed air intake. Only difference a warmed air intake would be easier to switch back to CAI for when you want some get up and go.
I would be more worried about heating all the fuel in the fuel tank with the return fuel and boiling a bunch of it off.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

I think the reason the 3.4 got better mileage was intake differences. I can say for sure my car has never seen 20+ MPG.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

Intake difference ? The 3.1 L has the same intake manifolds as the 3.4 ?

So it has to be something different

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

The intake from the 3.4 to the 3.1 is completely different. The lower intake is similar but not exactly the same. I have plenty of pictures from my 3.4 swap if you want any. The fact that the 3.4 used a coil pack instead of a dizzy may have something to do with it as well.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

The 3.4L has a different intake mainifold. Its hard to make work with a dizzy car but it could work if you fab it a little.

IF the foth gen 3.4l f-body did get better mpg i would think it was because of the tune, the trans difference, or the dis ignition.. just a guess.

RubberDucky

iTrader: (4)

The difference is negligible, 16 for 2.8/3.1 to 17 for 3.4.

project89

iTrader: (1)

the 3.4 has a different upper intake

KG427KG427

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more details and info like this and yes im taking my block and heads to a machince shop what else shold i advice to them and parts should i buy to give to him

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

I didnt think there was much if any either. But i also didnt look it up.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

fasteddi so what should i start doing with the 3.4 block and heads i heard i can send some1 my heads???

and as far as the block any1 in so cal want to take this on?


my dad knows a guy but not so sure i should trust him...


ok so call delta cams and say i need a 260 grind cam for my 3.1 that way he doesnt say it cant be done with a 3.4 ?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

if you retain your dizzy system you dont need a crank trigger so you can use a delta cam for the 3.1L. The 3.4L complete engine uses a DIS ignition system which needs a crank trigger.

Saar

the 3.4 will have the reluctor on the crank already...

also, 4 cylinder F-body to get ~40MPG? Quad4 could do it, assuming you could work around mounting/bellhousing.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

If I got 37 with the 3.1 I should get at least that with the 3.4

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

How did you come up with that 37 MPG figure?

Did you datalog it and calculate the MPG with the injector size, pulsewidth averaged over several samples and the speed? or just wing it with a rough estimate by how much gas you used?

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

He did it off of miles on a full tank and gas added it. I know he didn't do it off logging. I was the one burning his chips, would have been a lot tighter if he would of logged.

If I was to guess im sure it was strictly highway miles on that fill up with no hills...lol

Saar

37? i would expect a hill.... one pointing downwards at all times.

700R4 + 3.27 + 3.1 just doesn't seem like that much of an economy combo to me... then again, i've never been in a F-body that wasn't a 5.0 or 5.7.

project89

iTrader: (1)

he may have done it but 32mpg n/a id be more comfortable with

stock his car would have had 3:23's so the 3:27's in the 9 bolt make no difference

i will say these engines will cruise very lean so it is possible

i have knocked down over 34mpg with my turbo build with 4:10 rear gears and a high stall non lockup converter

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Its possible but I do agree 37mpgs is a tad overwhelming to trust. Heck I was getting about 30-32 on my car before the turbo when it was tuned. Yes I live in northern ohio so its basically flat as a board which helped.. but they do get pretty sharp mpgs if tuned in pretty good and having a soft foot.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

So doing the math on mine from a datalog (averaged 20 samples), 70 MPH, 2400 RPM (old 3.73 rear, 4th gear w/TCC locked), 33# injectors, 1.57 mS BPW works out to 34.2 MPG.

That's an engine that makes ~250 ft-lbs and about 100 HP @2500 RPM, @ the crank.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

That would be considered instantaneous MPG, not average MPG.

I don't know of anyone that doesn't use average MPG to compare fuel consumption between vehicles.

Saar

i'll have a datalogging freiendly average MPG calc soon enough... i can never get the log average to come out right. log instant seems accurate, but the same equation used for that just never worked well when averaged over an entire trip.

real-world, i was seeing ~32 on a regular basis driving around here, but the calcs usually came up to ~37 or ~24, depending on how i attempted to accumulate the fuel injected(using RPM and BPW). distance always came out dead-on too.

new version is somewhat like what is normally done for transmit to DIC/DIS, but less complex on the end-side.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

hey when you have some free time was seeing if i could get another chip burned. and the cable i need is ALDL let me know how much for the chip i can paypal u.

bl85c

iTrader: (2)

Why not put cast manifolds on for testing and switch back to headers later? And IDK if they're going to let you get away with frankensteining a motor together in cali. It's not a prob anywhere else, but I think a retrofit motor needs to be complete w/ emissions stuff to be legal... then again who's really going to know? I doubt anyone would know enough about it to tell. If you're going through the trouble of putting together a motor you should replace all the expendables (gaskets, bearings, check machining at a minimum). Otherwise swap a complete motor and cross your fingers.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Pm me what you want on the chip stuff and ill get her done. Im going racing hopefully this weekend followed by a well need vacation down at some cabins in southern ohio for a few days. But I can get on dialing ya up what you need late next week.

project89

iTrader: (1)

agreed a good coating of graphite or antisieze on the header bolts will ensure an easy swap back to the stock manifolds when the time comes


as long as he sticks the stock intake back on the thing and dont use the 3.4 intake or a 2.8 intake they will never know it has a 3.4 in it

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

True, I was working on a formula to do average but other things got in the way.

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out exactly how much gas was used during a trip with the IPW.

Even those results may be slightly skewed by other factors though, then the formula grows to include manifold pressure and probably even more factors.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

if you want i can log it again on my next long drive. and yes all my driving was on the freeway with no traffic and i was driving at 64 mpg. So i just need to hook up that aldl cable ? and hook up my laptop while im driving?

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

this is going to be my last engine probably in my car so i want to do everything possible small or big if its going to have results worth within my budget. so whats everything you can do to a 3.4 RWD block. Under $4,000

I have to keep the 3.1 top plenum. wish i could put a 3500 top on it.

3.4 build for a 91 3.1 top end. has to be california smog legal.


What Pistons (forged) ? help i know these can be 500$ + but if its worth it what increase do i see in hp or will these help my mpg? this is a daily driver but still want it to have some kick.

port and polishing the iron heads ? what should i do or anyway i can get alu heads without changing my ECU or anything?

Are their any Aluminum Heads that will work.. i heard 2000+ or 2006 malibu or grand am gt heads work?

what aluminum fly wheel should i tell my machine shop to get and i need to tell him what i want to bore my 3.4. can i make it a 3.5 or 3.6L how much meat should i have him leave on it??????

can i use a 260 delta cam will this be smog legal? in california is their a #


1.6 rockers or (extruded full roller rockers.
what wrist pins
what is all the machining i can have done,
bearings what kind
doing all new gaskets i heard felpro is the best
again what pistons
might as well get an oil pan
what oil pump
or water pump
what timing chain
what igntion system should i use
what hoses can i replace or wiring that is easy to do when the block is all open.

what else can i do i know im limited cuz of california rules but i dont want to miss anything.


viero vavle covers





I WOULD THINK SOME1 WOULD HAVE A LIST OF EVERYTHING U CAN DO TO MAKE THE PERFECT ENGINE.

fasteddi

iTrader: (2)

Having forged pistons isn't going to gain any hp IMO. Its just a stronger piston.

Living in cali is going to restrict you a lot so id say you beef up everything you can before rebuilding that engine as between the machine work and forged componets your going to run up a bill of 2k bucks pretty fast just on doing a complete rebuild. It would be a lot cheeper if you did it yourself.

If your going to spend a lot of $$ go with the hybrid topend. I wouldn't stay with iron heads as youll never see the flow and hp you want with them unless you go turbocharged. You just need to google hybrid V6 Thirdgen and youll find some threads on them. Theres a good amount of info out there, you just need to research it and it will answer a lot of questions. Heres just one link of many out there for thirdgens.
https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/v6/5...e-beefing.html


If I was you with a whole bunch of cash and needed to stay smog legal heres what id do.

Take you 3.4L block and if the pistons and rings are good just leave them be. Im proof that the 3.1L can take a massive beating and laugh it off. I don't see why a 3.4L cant take it also. 3.4L is just a bored out 3.1L but it does have a touch more compression then a 3.1L.

Either read up on the hybrid swap or massively port and polish those iron heads. If you stay with the iron heads then just toss some stamped roller tip rockers on there, get fresh springs, retainers, and locks, then call it a day.

Get a MSD 6 plus ignition box if you stay with a dizzy or get a MSD 4-dis plus box if you have DIS ignition. Both of these boxes are 50 state smog legal. Get some nice taylor wires and a blaster coil and you now have a very good ignition set up.

Get a different rear end set up. Go with 3.73 Richmond gears or something of that nature. Get a eaton lsd in that rear end too. Believe me just upping the rear end ratio will make the car so much faster. Look into getting a RoadKing torq converter(autozone sells it). Its a cheepie but its what I run and it stalls about 2800=3000 depending on you hp level. You cant really tell to much on the street that its a higher stall converter but when you lay into it you will notice it.

Google probuilt transmissions and find there web site. Look up there street shift kit. I would highly recommend this place to get parts for. You can get a shift kit that will greatly improve your cars shifting, and also make you trans last longer. At the very least get a vette servo and a larger intermediate and boost valve. Also get a universal tranny cooler. This is a important item to get. Its pretty cheep and there universal so just get one that's in your price range. This will extend the life of your trans by keeping the tranny fluid cooler.

Go with some boxed or tubular lower control arms. Also tie the frame with some frame connectors. Summit will have all this stuff if you wana do some searching for parts. Just pop in your Camaro and year and it will show the parts you can use. Also some new rear shocks wouldn't hurt. I have kyb adjustable shocks on my car. Really helps the car to squat apon a hard launch and stay down and not nose dive. There adjustable so you can dial them in for the street or drag racing if you want to.

The other main item is tuning the ecm. Stick with $88 mask for now. Get yourself a wideband controller from aem or something and start tuning yourself(do lots of reading as theres tons of info on this site for the beginner). Its something that if you learn youll never forget and its definily worth the time and effort in the long run.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

I have moates chip set up and fasteddi burned me a chip for my current 3.1 so I need him to tune and burn me a chip for the 3.4 set up.

I have Koni yellows front and back

Going to keep my posi 9 bolt.


I can't do alu heads or gen3 because I need to pass smog have to port and polish my iron heads.

I don't think a turbo is legal ? Or is it in California ? I feel like a turbo won't last 20 years I want to make this engine bullet proof. Is the delta cam 260 grind smog legal.

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

Current engine pic

KG427KG427

iTrader: (1)

1994 Camaro 3.4 iron heads stock.


Should I port and polish these guys up ?

project89

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yes!!!!