I've seen the threads for the biggest brakes and 15 inch rims. So I know some ideas as to whats out there. But....since I'm overhauling my brakes (everything short of the pedal and brake light switches and even the pedal might go if I go with the T56 but thats another story). I'm looking at running more power, so naturally if you want to go faster you would want to stop better than the 10.5 inch rotors that were stock on an 84 four wheel disc TA.

So, I've looked around. Seems like you can go up to 12 inches. But the catch is....I want to keep my stock 15 inch deep dish rims. I want the sleeper bone stock car look. What would I need to replace on the car if I were to go bigger. I'm assuming I can use stock F body hoses and brake line.

If I went with C4 brakes, they seem to fit. But would I need to order the C4 master cylinder and brake booster etc etc if I were to use C4 rotors and calipers? Any other suggestions other than just going with a brand new stock setup?

In case it would make a difference....I'm planning an Eibach Pro Kit spring swap, and hotchkis rear suspension. Poly bushings everywhere and a carbed 350. Like I said I might go with a T56 but I don't know. And my car is a five speed manual stock.

 

12" is about the most you can go with a 15" rim even with the majority of the aftermarket brakes available. See my sticky at the top of the forum on installing disk brakes on any differential. I put GMC Jimmy rear brakes on my car. They use a 11.6" vented rotor. How easy or hard a swap will be will depend if you want a park brake or not.

I use Aerospace front drag brakes. The 4 wheel disk brakes have no problems slowing me down from 145 mph although the front brakes are not good enough for street driving. You'll want a vented rotor on the front.

 

I found the write up for the C4 swap last night after a ton of searching (for some reason it wasn't showing up within the three pages here on the brake boards). It seems like you need to machine a set of stock brakes in order to create a "hub" for the C4 rotors. Most of the brake setups other than the 1LE ones appear to require custom fabbing (which I could do or pay for but I don't have access to the equipment, or can afford such work now). For now I'm focusing on the suspension and some of the steering. If I have the money to go forward with a 1LE setup (seems to be the best route because its pretty much a bolt on deal) I'll do it. But otherwise it seems that I might just stick with the stock 10.5 inch four wheel discs for now. I don't think I've yet to see the full stopping power of the stock setup because my hoses, and pads and etc were all shot after the car sat for 7 years. When driving it, you couldn't lock em up no matter how hard you slammed on them. I tried a panic stop from 60 on a county route when no one was around. Stopped the car, but wouldn't lock em up. Could the proportioning valve be shot too?

 

the ls1 kits are cheaper then buying the 1le kit and the parts are plentiful. i got my whole front and rear kits for under 400. thats the machining cost and everything tho. i have 2 spare hubs and spindle/ bracket combos just in case. the stopping is alot better then the stock brakes. theres a guy on this site that sells complete bolt on kits for alot cheaper then piecing the 1le kit. i believe the site is called flynbye.com ?

 

1LE kits are available:

http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/c17_p1.html

http://www.spohn.net/shop/1982-1992-...es-Components/

JamesC

 

I've checked out the links and a couple other places. Ed Miller seems to sell a kit for the C4 conversion. But I can't find any details about what exactly is in the kit for the 700 or whatever it costs. Point is, if I can simply go to the parts store and pick up some C4 rotors, and calipers; then have a local machine shop machine down my stock rotors to a hub. I already have fresh hoses for the TA which it seems like I can use. It also seems I can keep my original spindles.

Parts list:
Machined stock rotors
C4 12 inch rotors
C4 calipers for said rotors
1LE Prop valve
1LE Master Cylinder?
Stock brake booster?

Seems to me that would be it. If that is the case, I could probably find all that and piece it together for less money than having a kit done up.

And I still haven't found a solid answer to my question about the 15 inch 20 slot concaves that my 84 has in regards to fitting. Best answer is "Most 15 inch wheels will fit" with C4 12 inch rotors and calipers. If I need to go 16s I'll use the later black TA crosslace wheels. I was doing some simple numbers and I was thinking common sense dictates that bigger brakes will make me thankful when doubling or more the power in the motor.

I'm unsure as to what to do for the back half of the car though.... any ideas? I'm puttting together a parts list so I can buy stuff for my bare shell if I ever can....

 

I don't know if C4 fit 15" wheels(ed should know). But you can drill, tap and cut the spindles on the car. I have done it many times, not hard. The first time I did it, took 1 hour for first side 20 min. for second side. Just have to be careful to drill stright hole. It's not hard to cut your old rotors off to make the hubs. Just have to angle the front edge to fit the inside of new rotor. That saves a lot of money.

 

Those are a couple of the details I can't find out. What other fab work is involved in the conversion. Rotors and calipers are roughly 50 apeice from my local parts store. Off a 1989 vette. I'm saving my original rotors to turn them into hubs but I need the specs and etc for the drilling and etc. I'll keep searching the boards for the info.

 

go here http://www.lukeskaff.com/ tells you how to do spindles. You will get a better deal on fleabay for rotors.

 

Thanks, thats awesome info right there. Now to break out the grinder and start cutting, oh wait I should probably do this right....lol.

From what I am gathering, with that more complete info is this.
C4 calipers, rotors, and carriers (might be included), pads, hardware. 1LE prop valve and master cylinder combo, stock hoses and lines.

Machine hub down to 5.95, cut the ears off the spindles, drill and tap holes for the bracket, modify the backing plate, make or get a Baer bracket, then put it all together and go out and have fun.

Does Baer still make the brackets and hubs by any chance?

Sounds easy enough.


I'll confirm if the 20 slots fit before I put them on the car, I'm hoping that if the 15 inch camaro wheels fit then the 20 slots should fit.. I might just use the stock rear discs and calipers to retain the parking brake, I'm in a hilly area therefore better to have it than not, especially with a manual. Unless someone knows of a better option for rear brakes that allow me to retain the parking brake without much trouble.

 

I've been gathering parts to do the same swap on my Camaro this winter. I got my calipers and carriers from http://www.corvetteforum.com. Those guys are pretty much willing to give them away for brake upgrades or parting their cars out. Should also be able to score a good set of rotors there as well.

The brackets you can make, or get from Ed Miller at http://www.flynbye.com. I'm having mine made up and shipped to me by a friend who is currently going to a tech school and taking machine shop classes. I'll just be paying shipping costs for them.

The hubs will need turned down at a machine shop. I'd have the same guy do that for me too, but I have no way to get him my hubs since he lives on the other side of the state.

You'll need the C4 rubber brake hoses to fit the calipers.

Since you've already got 4-wheel discs, you can probably just use your current master cylinder and combo valve. Swapping them out to the 1LE combo valve and 89+ master cylinder couldn't hurt though.

I would avoid ebay rotors, unless they are used OEM ones.

You'll definitely want to keep your ebrake with a manual trans.

For a rear upgrade, I believe the only one that will fit under the stock 15" wheels is from a later(89+) Thirdgen, or from an LT1 4thgen(93-97). I'm going with the LT1 rear discs since I've got drums now and I was able to score a complete LT1 posi rear at the junkyard over the summer. If you change the rear disc setup, you'll also need to change the ebrake cables.

 

Well my prop valve, and MC are probably shot, they were all rusty in the inner areas and the car refused to lock up when I had it running. If I can just use a J65 MC and valve then that saves a lil money. I'll probably start getting the rotors and carriers, etc. But I want to see what it would cost before I just get the kit from Ed Miller. If its about the same then I'll probably just get his kit and do it later on. I need metal lines and all anyway.

As for the rears....I'm keeping my stock ten bolt 7.5 inch rear. I'm guessing that alone would pose problems with converting to the later brakes. Unless I create a bracket or something to convert it. Ed probably has that kit too....lol. Besides, if I can retain the stock style 10.5 rears and bigger brakes up front it would stop better regardless compared to stock. Just less modding around the rear. The front I don't have a problem with since its in pieces, but the rear is still a unit. would rather keep it that way since nothing is wrong with it.

Just trying to see about doing the same thing for less money, I can do the work no problem.

 

Yeah, Ed has a kit for just anything brake related you could want to do to a 3rdgen.

 

Ed replied to my email that I sent him on his site, said the 20 slots will fit. I am going to talk to my neighbor who has some tools that I could probably use for the project. If he thinks he can help me get some of the things done without wrecking the tools he has I'll do that. An 89+ MC and 1LE valve make sense if I'm ditching the original stuff anyway.

 

After you cut the rotor off your old front rotors to make the hub, check the inner size of the new rotor. I have found many of the after market rotors are smaller. I bevel the outside edge to 5.89, you only have to angle it about 3/16 in on the hub. Look at the inside of the new rotors and you will see what I mean. The vette front brake lines bolt right on. A sawsal makes cutting the old brake bracket off the spindle a piece of cake. Make sure you get zinc plated rotors, no rust problems. Makes life easy down the road when you have to work on the brakes. When you buy the grade 13 bolts get the ones with predrilled holes for safty wire. I use safety wire to make sure the bolts will never backout, also use red lockit. Better to be safe than sorry. If you make your own brackets make sure you clean them down put etching prime then paint them. I repaint everything after install, makes it really clean and looks nice. Just take your time and you will be very happy when completed. Get all your parts together before you start and double check you have everything.

 

Ok thanks. I talked to my neighbor he said yea thats easy enough to do the brackets but he said he doesnt' have a metal blade and didn't think his saw would handle a half inch plate. He did however point me to a friend of his who could machine the hubs down and maybe do a lil more for me....I'll talk to him.

If he says he'll do it for me then I'm pretty much done. At least with the front brakes...now about the rears lol. 89+ brakes fit on a ten bolt and retain a similar parking brake to an 84 disc brake?

 

Check the following for that conversion:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/faq-...iscs-89-a.html

The 89-97 parking brake is similar. The best parking brake set-up is the LS1.

JamesC

 

Yea I found that one James thanks, the problem with the LS1 is they don't fit the 15 inch wheels. I will admit I might end up swapping out for black 16 inch TA crosslaces but I want the ability to use the original wheels for the sleeper look.

I just saw you need to pull the rear axles.

 

Yes.

JamesC

 

Ed got back to me and said the 20 slots fit, at least the C4 setup anyway, I'm guessing they should fit the PBR setup in the rear as well. I tried a machine shop yesterday, but they only worked with brass/aluminum and CNC work. I might try another one that I was told about on the local boards this afternoon.

quick Q for those who've done the swap already, the upper hole that bolts the bracket to the spindle, is that a through hole or not? Stock I know its not a through hole. Was wondering if the mods made it a through hole.

I struck out on the backing plates at Hawks, Thirdgen ranch, and its not worth the effort to search the local yards, they almost never have any F bodies at all let alone certain rear backing plates. I'm gonna probably get fresh axle seals and bearings, thought about beefing up the rear keeping the housing, gear ratio and posi, but I'll do that when it blows up, the car is not going to the strip every night, threfore no point in doing it. But it makes sense to do the seals and bearings when you do the backing plates, which I might just pick up from Ed with all the hardware. I don't want the rear sitting open for too long.

 

NO!! the hole only go's in far enough for length of bolt and the extra for the tapered front of the tap.

 

Heard loud and clear. Will mark that one with big bold letters DO NOT DRILL THROUGH. Thanks

 

Hey guys, I emailed Ed back with a list of parts I think I need, wanted him to confirm. Hasn't gotten back to me, yet... But anyway, since I'm going to swap to the 11.6 PBR discs, I thought I'd post the question up on here as well, maybe someone on here can answer the question so I can pull the trigger on the order.

First, do these lines include the long MC to rear line that goes the length of the car? Mine broke as it came off (I'm amazed it didn't blow out when I was driving it).
http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i212.html

Second, are these the backing plates I need for said conversion?
http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i29.html

I know I need the hoses and the 1LE prop valve blah blah blah, but I want the rear end attached to my car again, so I want to get the backing plates and lines installed so all I have to do is get the LCAs and Panhard bar and I can just reattach my rear without having to take too much apart again just to convert the rear end. Thanks

 

First) No. For those lines you might consider the following sites:

http://www.finelinesinc.com/

http://www.classictube.com/

http://www.inlinetube.com/

Second) Yes.

JamesC

 

Thanks James. The lines that Ed supplies is the hard lines for the rear axle only correct? Considering he has them made for the PBR swap I'll probably get the lines that are on the rear from him, get the one that goes the length of the car from Finelines or something.

 

Correct.

JamesC

 

Sorry guys, I'm searching, hell I have like 10 tabs open of various TGO threads, stickies and part locations. But there is so much information, some now outdated, or discovered to be not needed that its hard to sort it out. But for this PBR rear/C4 front swap as far as the hydraulics go I have a couple more Qs

First, Brake Booster, I can use an 84 replacement?

Second, Brake MC, I can use an 84 replacement for J65 brakes (mine was originally J65 but the cylinder is rusted and etc) or do I need an 89+ J65 MC?

For the Proportioning valve, should I use this one from Ed?
http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i40.html

And finally, if I use that prop valve, I can use 89 or lower brake lines correct? I know the threads changed or the location for the line going to the rear changed from the front to the bottom of the valve or vice versa at some point, which is why I'm asking before I order anything. Just trying to confirm parts before I stupidly order the wrong parts and money wasted.

Sorry for the questions, just with so much info and conflicting answers its hard to say, IE: Some say have to change the MC to the J50 style to use the PBR rears. Whereas others say can keep the J65 MC from 84 onwards.

Thanks.

 

First, this question: Does the combination valve on your car looks like the one from Ed's site (alum) or is yours cast iron (with a different line orientation)?

JamesC

 

Its the stock cast iron unit, to my knowledge its never been replaced. And IMO don't think its any good anymore either. The line going to the rear is located to the front of the combo valve.

 

1) I used my OE 85 booster without complication.
2) I used a J50 master on my original J65 car; however, note that GM says they're interchangeable:

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/susp...fferences.html

3/4) Since the combination valve on your 84, the cast iron version, has SAE threads (whereas as the later valves are metric) and the line comes in at a different location, you'll have to replace the lines or mod them to fit the 1LE valve you show above.

JamesC

 

Ok, so when I replace the brake lines I'll just have to get the Metric threaded lines. Since I'm replacing the lines anyway I'll go ahead and change them to Metric to make the conversion a lil easier. Will go through finelines perhaps. and thanks, that should be it, except for the usual stupid questions that pop up when something doesn't go together right. Thanks alot james.

 

I'm editing this whole post because I just saw AndyZ28's site. I guess I can get the shims and line brackets from Andy. Will get the backing plates from Ed. But what are the spacer's on Andy's site for? I haven't seen any threads that said you had to use spacers unless I missed something. Will I have to mod the shims to get the proper clearance on the carriers? Seems like I will need rotors and carriers if not the calipers and pads in order to check that. The clearance needed I believe was noted to be .060 somewhere on here.

I'll pull apart the rear this week, maybe as soon as tomorrow. I'm hoping to get it back together within a couple months if not quicker. I'm not sure if I need repair bearings or not, I'm pulling it apart to check that. I'm spreading this around because I'm doing this right but shopping around for the best prices.

 

Note all that Ed's kit contains:

http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i182.html

The spacers are for drum to disc conversion.

You may or may not require spacers. I only used one.

I didn't have much success with 'repair' bearings. If you can swing it, I'd suggest new axles, bearings, and seals (which is what I had to do in the end).

JamesC

 

if Andy's kit was closer in price to his 9 bolt kit I might have been able to do that. I don't know why his ten bolt kit is 100 bucks over the 9 bolt kit. But like I said, I might end up just gathering parts first because you need the parts in order to check some things. The front suspension just needs bolts, sway bushings, and a lil paint work. then I can bolt up most of that. With ball joints and the front spindles coming on later. Just hard when every time you think you can easily get some things, your mom needs another X dollars for something that has nothing to do with you.

I'm assuming you got your axles from Summit? I haven't seen them anywhere else. I'll check up Rock Auto again but....doubt I'll find them. I know I'll need 26 splines, I'd upgrade to 28s but I want to keep that wonderful 3.73 gear set.

 

I pulled the passenger side axle, its on the fence as to whether I can keep it. Then again, if these are the original ones, the power I'm putting in it might just snap em and I'll be putting Mosers in anyway. I didn't bust the seal or bearing on the way out, but I'd be stupid not to replace either one. Gonna pull the Moraine backing plates off. If anything, this upgrade is easy weight savings too.

 

Well I'm using this one http://www.flynbye.com/catalog/i29.html because I'm going from a disc rear to PBRs. I did think about going to the 12 inch brakes but the 11.6s are a definite fit with the 15s according to Ed, and they pretty much bolt right on. Ed is awesome for putting these things together but (no offense to him) his website could use a lil work in the what exactly is included catagory. And I think I can easily upgrade to 12s later on with the same backing plates.

If the spacers are for drum to disc conversion then I might not even need em going from Moraines to PBRs. But the shims is what I'm wondering about. I wasn't gonna spring 300+ for something that I might not need all of.

 

You're correct (I was using the the kit--albeit not the one you should use--as an example of the parts the kit contains.

You do not need the spacers.

You may need the shim(s), which can be purchased separately from Andy.

Good luck with your project.

JamesC

 

Hey folks,
I'm still working on the setup. I had a chance to grab a T56 and jumped at it. It was local, it was very reasonable, and it worked. So the brake and rear portion of the project went on the back burner. Oh yea, and my bro's, and sis's and moms cars all decided to break in quick succession...fml. But, I'm back at it. I've got my spindles all ready to go except for the holes that need to be drilled. I'm holding off on that til I get the brackets from Ed. I know Lukestaff said to use 27/32 with a 12mm tap but if Ed's holes are slightly smaller than that then I don't want to get stuck. Later this week I'll order the brackets and backing plates from him. After that I'll probably order an idler arm and center link so I can start putting that front end back together.

April I'll get some axles and related parts and I might split the rear calipers between this month and next month so I can check clearances to see if I need the shims.

 

has anyone tried the Baer 15 inch brake kit ?

 

If 15 inch refers to the brake diameter...it won't go, if it refers to the wheel diameter...I'm not sure.

I abandoned the 15 inch wheels. They're in the shed stacked in the corner. Likely will keep for another project. I found a set of 16 inch Formulas (I'm being a sneaky bastard, they fool people bec they look like the originals, hell they already fooled me with the 84 center cap on it. Also due to difficulites in finding parts, and also the cost....I went with the LS1 front brakes. I have both calipers/carriers. Found one side for 50 shipped found the other for 55 or so. Mind you these are not used. Cheapo rotors are 25 apiece but I will likely get the high performance ones at 50 apiece. The MC is an 87 J50 variant, the Booster is the same across the board, and the prop valve is the 496 (final three digits) aluminum 1LE prop valve. As for the rears I went ahead with the PBR rears, just need calipers and pads. Fronts also need pads. Might just get good ones off the bat as opposed to getting junk ones and swapping when they wear out. However, if they are cheap enough, I might just get the cheap ones as a place holder to assemble the whole thing. I don't know how it all performs yet, still gotta get a motor built and finish the car.

 

196 or 496?

JamesC

 

D'OH! Excuse the typo, you're right 496 is the right one. And thats the one I have. Edited.

 

Bear makes a brake upgrade kit for 15 inch rims. mostly old muscle cars such as a 1970 Olds 442 or a 1957 Chevy Bel Air

 

http://www.baer.com/index.php?page=s...mart&Itemid=10