i went to circuit city toda to look at the subs. well first off the sound room was the broke room today. they seem to have a thing for MTX bcuz that's all they were tryin to sell. even over the audiobahn amps. they sed the only thing better was Phoenix Gold amps. so this is the setup he told me to do The Sub And the amp the amp alone is more $$$ than the elemental design sub with a Avionixx amp so what do u guys think is better. the only thing the guy sed that i thought was right was that if u have a dual voice coil u'll get deeper bass than with a single coil

 

ahhh....take this for what its worth, i'll be honest I don't own a system yet, but looking to get a JBL setup listed on another thread...but, audiobahn subs don't sound that good, don't sound bad but there are better subs for the money...look at JL w0 or maybe an alpine type s or a JBL GT120D...as for the amp, mtx is ok, but JBL makes awesome amps that are really underrated for really good prices...thats just my thoughts...as far as the guys as Ciruit city go, well most are idiots, they are all working on commission and will try to sell more expensive stuff to you, the good guys don't stay long as they usually move on to higher quality shops or get a new career...just my thoughts...

 

1st rule: dont listen to CC guys . majority of them know nothing about what they sell. go with the avionixx and elemental setup you mentioned. great equipment at very good prices. the only difference between 2 voice coils and one is the number. no change in sound, just more installation options.

 

Here is the best advice for buying subs at a retail store. Do not buy the bottom of the line subs. PERIOD. Especially MTX and JBL. Quality is low. They all sound like the "Retard banging on a folding chair". I know subs are expensive but you will be miserable with something that sounds bad as opposed to something that is confortable to listen to. When I look for good subs I look for low Fs around 25 Hz.

 

well i wasn't looking at the bottom of the line sub. it's just the amp that's over my limit. but is the elemental design k series good? does ANYbody have one?

 

amps are not cheap, and you get what you pay for

i had a jenson amp, it was cheap and had alot of watts, but sounded like ***, once i got my kenwood amp, the clearity of the music was 120% better.

a good amp is as important if not more important than a good sub

i dont get the guys who go out and spend a ton of $$ on expensive subs and then hook them up to cheap *** amps and then wonder why the subs sound bad, you get what you pay for.

like CAMp3RO said, dont listen to the cc guys, or even the guys at best buy or any retail store, the majority have not been certified or even trained, and most likely do not know anything about what they are talking about. I am not saying i know everything abotu car audio, but i have gone to best buy looking for something and they had no idea what i was talking about, i have also corrected them on somethings they have tried to tell me, not to mention one day i was in the install bay getting a build up kit or something and they could not figure out why a kids amp would not turn on, i pointed out that the ground wire wasn't even connected, and presto it worked.... i am only 17, but i have learned alot from the local audio shop, my friend works at best buy in the install bay and doesn't even have his license, he doesn't know anything about the stuff, but is still working there.... installing i might add.....makes you think of what kind of people you are paying to install the expensive equiptment you have just bought, or how much what they have told you about what you are getting is true.

i would research on your own more about each of the products you want to get, or even go to a local shop and have them tell you more about them. most of the smaller private shops will tell you the truth, and are usually small, so you know the people working there can tell you more about whatever you are looking for.

i know i got way off topic there, but one more thing i wanted to add, is that most of the products in retail stores are usually pretty cheap, and you can get much better ones for the same price elsewhere, although i have not really ever dealt with cc, but i have best buy, and that is what i have generally found.

 

being one of those audio guys many years back i can attest that "we" were pushed to sell whatever toted the highest percentage pay back. commission isn't that great at a place like cc, especially in car audio. wether it's best buy, circuit city, or any other major "retail" audio store your going to run into that issue. it's also true that you don't have to have alot of knowledge at these lower end audio stores to be able to sell, however that doesn't mean that you can't run into some of them who know what they are talking about.

mtx makes some really good stereo equipment, circuit city can order these pieces and not a single one of them is ever on display. why you ask? because the average consumer who would buy from a store like cc in most cases doesn't care to spend that amount of money or doesn't know enough about audio to really want it.

you should study up on the equipment first hand that way you can make your own decisions, the nice thing about places like cc is when they have major deals on some of the low end equipment they typically honor it on the high end so you can get some really good deals.

 

ok i gave up on CC and best buy, they suck. so i went to a good place in town called quintex. they sell Phoenix Gold and eclipse amps and subs. i'm looking to get the eclipse 12 in sub with a 210 watt eclipse amp (the amp was running 2 10s and kicked a$$ so one 12 and with it bridged should be fine) the amp is $179.99 2 ch and the sub is $159.00. a guy at my work told me eclipse subs r alright but thier amps suck, but he ALOT so i ignore what he tells me, so let me know what u guys think.

 

o ya, has anyone ever heard of those Avionixx amps??? i finally found someone else here who has heard of elemental design but not Avionixx.

 

not sure but I think this is funny "the circuit city guy" lol Those guys and those best buy guys and even Radio shack guys I always look at like they are a bunch of idots. I'm always over hearing them telling a customer something stupid, from why they need this or that because of reasons of filling someone full of krap. Bunch of know it all about blowing smoke up your @ss LOL! Sorry if you work there... umm its just the others wrecked the name of your average electronics store guy lol..

 

I have heard of them and seen several installs using them at shows but haven't really heard them in use. They look like they are well built and someday I wouldn't mind trying them out.

 

yes, avionixx amps are built well. I currently have to tsunami amps build in the same buildhouse as avionixx ordered from the same place warrantied by the same people...

i think avionixx uses slightly better parts in there amps than tsunami hence the price difference..but i believe that the avionixx amps come with a 3 year warranty, pretty great if you ask me

 

that's great bcuz i think i'll get an avionixx amp, for 10 bucks more than the eclipse 210 watt amp.

avionixx amp spec

MAX Power @ 4ohm 1x800 Watts Bridged
RMS Power @ 4ohm, <0.05% THD 2x125
RMS Power @ Bridged 4 ohm <0.5% THD 1x400
RMS Power @ 2 ohm, <0.5% THD 2x200

blyth18md, r these (and tsunami amps) better than eclipse amps?

eclipse amp specs they told me to buy (it was running 2 eclipse 10s and sounds great)

105W × 2 Channel Max. Power Output at 2
70W × 2 Channel 0.1% THD at 2 Stereo @13.8V (RMS Continuous Power)
50W × 2 Channel 0.1% THD at 4 Stereo @13.8V (RMS Continuous Power)

 

go with the elemental designs sub, it will out hit whatever eclipse sub your looking at in that price range, I have toured the building where these subs are produced, and let me tell you its AWESOME they build quality subs for cheap, thats all there is to it. I got a really good deal on my Resonant Engineering sub or would have gone with ED

 

well caleb, i would but i've heard the eclipes in person and i can't find anyone with an EA sub. and how do u think the e12K.44 is, have u ever heard one? or is the O series alot better, i won't go for the A-series bcuz of the price. but what do u think. also have u heard the avionixx amps EA recommends?

 

If you have heard the Eclipse and you like the sound, don't worry about getting the ED. They might not produce the sound you want and you might be disappointed. Since you have heard the Eclipse and like the sound, why shouldn't you stick with it?

 

well i've heard good things about the A-series ED subs, plus the eclipse is 160 and the EA is 130, but i just want to hear one first, bcuz i'm a type of person that will be pissed at myself if i got a sub and found out there was a better one for the same price and i didn't find out til it was too late. i think alot of u know what i mean.

 

i went back to that quintex audio shop again and ya the eclipse is good, but i was thinking about this. if the EA sub is just as good, well NObody around has one. i would be like one of the ONLY ones to have one. so i think that would be sorta cool too if it's as good as the eclipse. don't u guys think so?

 

It looks like you are trying to convince yourself into the EA. Just go for it. I highly, highly doubt you will be dissappointed, so just go for it. Good luck.

PS: Put it in the correct enclosure.

 

This really not a great topic....

Moving on. I work at Best Buy and we are not "a bunch of idiots." I think we sell the low end of car audio and if you want something better end (show quality, ect.) than you should order online or go to a car audio store like tweeter. Since we at BB dont work on commission most of us (like I said, most) will not try to screw you over. You have understand that we sell lower end stuff because most of our customers are cheep.

DD

 

DeathDealer, I'm not saying ALL BB or CC guys are idiots, i''m just saying most of them are. and it's not like MTX and audiobahn are low end, they did have crap subs tho. i went back again and i talked to a guy that a friend of mine knows and he knows alot about the stuff, and he told me one of the main reasons at THIS CC (idunno about all) they try to push people to buy MTX over audiobahn amps is bcuz of the warrenty and he sed the people don't look at that stuff so they do it for them. but the prices are still a little high for what they are. i'm sure people can get the same or better amps with a warrenty like that somewhere else and cheaper

 

ya you can order anything they sell at CC or BB in a magazine cheaper.. I agree though alot of retail workers try to sucker you in. Its not just car audio. Hint: Computers....They REALLY get some stupid ppl bad...

"You want this Power thing so if all your lights in your house go out you can still go on the comp"

"can I sell you Antivirus for only XXXX"

"Let us install your cd burner for only...XXX"

Lets see...No No and I can do it myself in 5 minutes!!

End result is general smart consumer getting pissed from workers bothering the hell out of you...Or...Someone getting lubed up and aimed for penetration. LOL

I have Sony 1000watt max amp. not sure of rms I dont feel like checking..Ive got 2 1200watt max 12s hooked up to it. Sounds fine to me. Try what you want. And please stop arguing with yourself and buy something.

nate

 

two 12"s and a nice powerful 500Wrms Class D amp like JL audio or equivelent will sound fine. That's just my opinion, there is no substitute for real power. I prefer sealed boxes too, but that's just my taste for bass. Not all ported and band-pass boxes sound bad, but the majority of them don't have proportional bass when used in an automobile. The dual coil is always better, there was an extensive post about this awhile back. Two coils can disperse heat better, and can take a beating. single coils are ok too, always be reasonable with the gain stteings, ect. What ever impedence you wire the speakers for, be sure it matches what the amp is capable of for the power you want. Some amps deliver more power at lower ohms, some amps deliver the same power consistently....couhg..JL...ahemm


From my experience working at Discount Auto Sound, who screws over thier employees on a regular basis by the way, I learned that there are definitly talented people in the car audio field, but there are some real dips as well!

from confusion over how to wire coils and relays, and just plain sloppy installation work, I wonder why some of these guys are even in the bay.

The upfront 'sales' guys were purly numbers driven, they mostly sold alarms and vidio systems. Whenever they sold stereo, it was more than often the worst choice for the customer.


Back in the install bay, we'd be asking eachohter, "why did this person want a 150 watt max power amp and three 12" mtx 1000 watt subs? or talking the customer into buying $600 worth of speakers and subs and not even recomending to replace a crusty factory head unit with at least a $150 pioner DEH-XXX. The mobile electronics industry lacks 'electronics orinted people' with practical technical knowledge applicable to what the customer needs. :lala: I felt much like the lala doing such things, but it wasn't my choice.....

I've always been able to install exellent sounding systems for around $500 or more, just by choosing the right equipment and installing it correctly. Almost every system I've wired up on my own time sounded incredible, while most of the stuff I did in the bays was mediocre. It was a disapointing experience to learn that some of these guys weren't even encouraged to understand a little about what they're doing.

I read an article in 11/2003 issue of Mobile Electronics which came with my MECP cert. the artical encouraged more shops to encourage certifications, MECP and ASE, just to make sure everyone was on the same page and encourage professionalism. I will never even consider working at another shop part time, unless they are on the ball. I have more fun doing installs and 'designing' systems for people on my own.


To end this on a positive note, some of these guys are too talented for thier circut city or best buy job, not every body is an idiot. Especially some of these guys who devote thier life to the industry, they make me look like a complete novice, even though I can fully understand how each and every circuit board in the equipment works.

Most importantly, you must get power in to get power out, no 1000 watt amp is going to magically pump out that much power on it's own.

Best way to learn is to avoid the product hype, start with a basic understanding of how this stuff works together.

ps. ddn69....leave those stupid computer people alone! They are the ones who create jobs for me and other fellow, electronics/computer/networking people!! :lala: :lala:

 

ya i think its just sad how best buy charges so much money to hook up a few screws and wires. LOL

 

What about a mechanic who charges $120 to change an alternator?

I don't sweat it, I just assume I pocketed $120 when I spent 15 minutes doing my own maintenace.

Some people may turn over easy jobs to the pro's and maybee miss and opportuinity to learn something, but if they can afford it, they are plenty good at something else. Even if those guys in the computer shop get some easy tickets, I'm sure most of them are A+ certified and are well equiped for a few more complicated problems.

Why do people pay mechanics to change light bulbs and wipers?
Don't hate, appreciate, get yourself a share of the business.


Just one more audio related mentioning: Everyone needs to be thier own expert in car audio. It's so easy to get caught in the bandwagon or the hype in some trend, but knowing the basics of what you need and what you don't need will save you lots of headaches.

If I bought into any of the stuff that is supposedly the 'bomb' in car audio, I just wouldn't appreaciate the sound. Don't be a sheep, go after the sound where you can feel every note from the music in every inch of the car...and maybee out of the car. Everyone has different eardrums, you don't need to go deaf btw, more power allows you to operate at lower volumes and save your ears! You can actually hear the music at 75+ watts rms per speaker, and not have to crank the volume near max to make your ears bleed with a 10-15W rms HU (40 watts is peak and a little exagerated).

I've been perfectly content with some supposed lower end speakers, just because I believe they responded to bass signals correctly, while higher end subs just didn't sound natural, maybee good to 1000watts of severe pounding, but nothing that any musician intended me to hear.

I belive that basic electronics theory has alot to do with car audio, most people don't make the connection. I can tell by the sound that some amplifiers, whether HU or external, just have better 'signal integrity'. Not just the ability to let loose a sloppy but powerful wave form, but consistenly delivering exacly what the speaker needs on time. Good subs will never sound good, unless they are driven by a quality made high powered amp.

 

indeed...A+ cert isnt all that hard to achieve either. Study a few videos and go take a test...Speakers/Amps needless to say you get what you pay for. And for christ sakes even if that "random name here" amp is expensive youll know where that money went...

Nate

 

I'm not saying that all the expensive stuff doesn't sound good or that it is overpriced. Some of my favorite stuff is the most expensive stuff you can buy.....small wonder.

I'm simply saying that you can't always go on stat's alone, if you want something to sound like you want it to, it comes down to personal preference. Also, if you knew how much mobile electronics were marked up, it would make you cry. Retailers 'dictate' those off the shelf values, "worth more money" is relative with consumer electronics these days.

A+ is a cake certification, but that's besides the point. Not everyone is technically minded as you are. a cert is just a start, it doesn't make a professional, there should be some extensive talent and additional hands-on knowledge in any field.

I don't need to be told why one amp is better than the other, I know plenty about electronics, I could build one if I wanted too.

I can tell that I am ticking someone off, good, we should move this discussion to www.mysportscar.com It's a great site I just found last night, seemingly unlimited in bickering, no censoring. Lets throw down a debate on someone else's website and try to honor the moderators request to keep these boards thirdgen tech only. I will only add my .02 in here when I can keep my useless opinions to myself. Come join me on the children's site where I'm about to upset almost everyone with my equal appreciation for American,Japanese and German cars. I don't have anything against you Nate, I just wanted to let you know about my new found sea of arguments and flame wars with some discussion. They don't have an audio forum though,....bummer.

I'm sure Mr. chio987 has already made his selection. lets not waste any more space here.

 

what's funny is i started this post and when i read it i completely forget that i started it. sadly tho almost everyone forgot the main subject and started going off about CC and BB people instead of the products AT CC and BB and what u guys thought about those products.

yes u r for the most part right, the E12o.44 with the avoinixx AXA-400.2, that's as of right now and i don't think it'll change.

here's the post i have going on the box i'm designing. please help me with some tips on put the box together on this post

 

I just thought it was funny that you're in pennsylvania, and i'm in kansas, and when i went to CC the other day their room was broken to !!! Really though, those places are only good to go and actually hear what stuff sounds like. I pissed a salesman off once because i told some people i knew to write down the serial # and look for it on ebay! Oh well, i'm sorry i cant help, I know almost nothing about brands. I went all power acoustik and im working on getting it all running. The only other person ive found in this town running PA had 1 sub and ran it with eclipse (i think). ISorry i couldn't be more of a help, i wanted to post something that actually had to do with your post and didn't flame! Oh, and i thought it was funny those romms don't work!
Later
Jared(84'fxrupr)