I have a chance to buy a pair of Cerwin Vega S-12 subs, mounted in a Firebird cargo cover, for $75. I have searched the internet a bit, but can't find a lot of info on these subs. Basically, I am wondering whether they will fit my needs? I currently have an Alpine CDA-9847 deck, and plan in the future to buy a set of custom kick-panel speakers, and perhaps a modest amp as well, if one is necessary. My music preferences are in the punk/rock/hardcore genres. I have had one person tell me that 12" subs will be "too much" for that type of music, and I'd be better off going with 10" pieces.

I appreciate any knowledge that the better-informed have to share. Anything to make sure I don't spend my money on a product that will not work out for me in the end is a good thing!

Dave

 

ok the way it works is 10's hit hard like the thump thump, 12's vibrate the car like a long tttthhhhhhuuuuuummmmmpppppp, and 15s just give off the sound u can here a long ways away but no hittin usually. with punk, rock, metal the parts that hit are usually with the drums which are fast and hard so 10's are your best bet cause rock and stuff dont have any notes that hold thereselves out on subs.

 

Thanks a lot for the info, it helps me out

 

That's an extremely common misconception with larger subs. Sure, your average smaller sub will hit faster than your average larger sub while larger subs will hit harder but that's becoming less and less true.

I listen to a lot of what you (bull) listen to: Atreyu, Thrice, Chevelle, Disturbed, Nightwish, Metallica, Foo Fighters/whatever. I love rock/metal/punk. I'm currently running 10's but I really miss the impact and volume my old 12's had. The sound quality is virtually the same between the two sub sets leaning in favor of the 12's because they were better woofers.

12s can sound just as good as 10’s.

The thing that will make a sub sound sloppy is a bad (weak) motor/suspension design and/or a heavy cone, not speaker size.

As for Cerwin Vega speakers I personally like the set mom has on our home system. They certainly get loud, stay pretty accurate, and don’t get harsh or sloppy. Not mind blowing amazing but defiantly a good bang for the buck speaker that’s above the others in this category. I’ve got no idea on their car subs. Some of the concepts they’ve had for SPL woofers seem like pretty cool ideas but I’ve never seen any of their woofers used. Someone on the board is running Vega comps and is pretty happy with them but I forget who.

Have the speaker line the sub is from? I can't find anything about a cerwin vega s-12 sub

 

Hey Gummie,

Thanks for the info! Good to know there is a fellow punk/metal guy on the board, too

I don't have much more info about the subs, just two small pics that the seller e-mailed me:





So, you think they might work ok for me, or is it hard to say without more specs? Are subs even going to make me appreciate my music more, or should I just keep it basic with a nice set of regular speakers (I'm talking about Jim's custom kicks here)

Thanks again.

 

there was a pair of those in a real crappy prefab box in the back of my car when i bought it. they dont need much juice at all. i ran them for a few weeks off 2 channels of my kenwood 35x4, which is almost a 15 year old amp, and they sounded better than no subs. couple weeks ago i hooked em up to my crossfire, just for kicks, and gave them about 2600 watts rms, they didnt like it very much.

i wouldnt say you can judge the type of sound a speaker will make based on its size. my rl-p 12's are far more accurate than any 10's or even 8's that i've ever heard. they can just quick punchy bass just as well as low rolling bass. 15's can be heard a long way, but i definitely wouldnt say that they have "no hitting usually." my cousins pair of xxx 15's certainly "hit" harder than is even comfortable to be around.

just depends on what you want out of them. if you just want something to fill in the low end of your music, they'll do fine. don't expect them to be real loud or sound great though, especially in that plate enclosure. are you planning on building a sealed box?

 

Yeah, I guess I just want something to fill in the lower end, as you said. I don't feel the need for an award-winning sound system, just something that sounds "nice" and can keep me happy if I crank up the volume on a favorite track.

I wasn't planning on building an enclosed box if I do get the subs, just allowing the cargo area itself to act as the sub box with this plate on the top. No good?

Thanks.

 

"fast" "tight", blah blah blah. It's all crap. No 10" sub is "Faster" than any 12" sub. What people misinterpret as being "fast" is usually a lack of output in the lowest octave or 2. A typical 12" sub will have a lower fs and play deeper than a typical 10" sub. Take away that extra octave or 2 of deep bass, and all of a sudden your music sounds "faster" or "tighter". Put an emphasis on that lowest octave or 2, and all of a sudden your sub is "slow" or "thick" sounding.

This is the same thing that makes people mistakingly believe that ported enclosures are sloppy, or not as accurate as sealed enclosures. It's just the difference in frequency response.

If I equalized a sealed and a ported enclosure so that they had the exact same frequency response, I guarantee that you'd never hear a difference. Likewise, if I eq'd a 10" and a 12" sub so that they had the exact same frequency response, you'd never hear a difference either.

Oh, and plates suck. Build a box for those Cerwin Vegas.

 

I agree with Mean and Jim. Might as well pick the suckers up for $75 but please build a box for them. Or have Jim/someone else build a box for them. It will make you much happier.

As for the subs, those things look old skol.

Still running my starter subs too cold to glass right now, gotta wait for spring.

 

Jim, you build sub boxes?

Think $75 is a decent deal for them, even if they're old-school?

 

as long as the subs are in good condition, that seems like a good price.

After looking at some of the Cerwin Vega literature, I think these subs aren't real likely to give you massive amounts of deep bass, but they should sound pretty good and thanks to their high sensitivity, should work reasonably well with smaller amps. Their specifications are a bit odd compared to a typical car audio sub, but I think for the money you really can't go wrong. If you wind up hating them, I think you won't have much trouble selling them for as much as you paid.

As for boxes, send me a PM if you want some information.

 

yeah if they're in good shape, for 75 i'd pick them up. what amp are you going to use on them?

plates definitely suck. when i was a younger i had a 92 camaro, i didnt know a lot about car audio at the time. i had 2 jl 12w3's in a plate on the bottom half of the well, off a 1200 watt alpine amp. i thought it sounded decent, but i wanted more, so i bought another pair of 10w3's and a 1000 watt kenwood amp, and put them in a sealed box behind my back seats, facing backwards. obviously they cancelled each other out, and sounded like ***, but it got loud, and i was happy.

when i would run them by themselves though, the 10's were a LOT louder than the 12's, and sounded much tighter and more accurate. (that was the sealed box, not them being 10's)

a plate will get you by, but i would build, or have someone build you a sealed box as soon as possible. i'll even sell you mine if this deal i have to trade my rl-ps for some xxx 15's comes through. these boxes are big and awkward though, not cheap to ship.

 

I got a few more, and better quality, pics from the seller.

In the third pic, how badly would that pushed-in center portion affect performance? can't be good, right?

 

that shouldn't effect performance, but you can fix that anyway. Take a piece of tape and stick it to the dust cap right where it's pushed in, then pull on the tape. It should pull the dust cap up.

 

A vacume (not too strong) or a pin also to pull up the dustcap... it doesn't affect performance...

Are those speakers designed for an "infinite baffle"?

Any speaker would sound better in a box...
I personally prefer ported, but a little more work to get right..

For my preference, 15's are too big for a car, I have had great sound with 12's, 10's and 8's...

I do have a pair of CV' 15's in the house... much bigger than car

 

nonsense.... 15's for teh win

 

Win...? Spl or good response?

For years MB quart were winning all these competitions & their paper speakers sounded so blah to me... now that they're poly, they sound much better...

Go for what sounds best to your ears... 15's in cars don't do it for me....

 

good 15's sound just as precise and "quick" as 10s or 12's. they move a lot more air though, so they can go louder.

 

I had a pair of CV's 8's for subs in a car that people would see and ask, "so where is your sub"? cuz they couldn't believe that bass was comming from 8's...

You are right, you can move a lot more air with a 15, but not everyone wants that... the space it takes, the power, the sound...

 

space, yeah.... power, yeah, but no more than a 10 or 12 with the same motor. but whats wrong with the sound

 

At the ranges that subs play, the cone material makes no difference. Anything, even poly will exhibit pistonic behavior at those low frequencies.

In midranges, poly has more energy storage than paper. You lose detail, but are able to make a "smooth" sounding speaker with a less expensive crossover due to much less upper frequency breakup.

In general, if nothing except the cone material changes, a paper speaker will have less energy storage in the pass band, but will have high frequency breakup that needs to be dealt with. While it may not sound as "smooth", it will be more detailed. It will also requre a bit more complex (read: expensive) crossover, which is why paper is rarely used on low and mid grade car audio speakers.

 

nothing but preference.... just like I prefer a ported box to a sealed box... titanium tweeters to soft sones... to me, the 15's don't sound as good as 12's or others... yeah, they move the most air and can be heard from longer distances... but I'm trying to please my ears, not the neighbors on the other block...

 

The comment about the MB Quarts... what I meant was, what sounds good to a computer or frequency response computer, doesn't necesarily sound good to my ears.... Again, I'm trying to please my ears, not the IASCA computer...

 

not trying to get into a pissing contest with you here, but there is no difference in the sound, only the sound level. if i built a slightly bigger box for my car, and put 2 rl-p 15's in, the tightness, accuracy, quickness, suitability for rock music, all that would still be there. only it would be capable of being louder. if i backed off the gain, it would sound basically the same as the 12's. only difference would be it would sound like they could play lower, because they're moving more air and the lower frequencies will be more audible, but the upper frequencies would not be affected.

i dont understand you preferring ported boxes to sealed, being that you dont like the stereotypical "deep, sloppy, only good for rap" bass that most people associate with 15's. you exchange a bit of quality for more volume when you go ported, unless it is very, very well built, and even then, you lose some of the very low, 20-30 hz response. i could just about guarantee that if you did a blindfold test with 2 ported 12's vs 2 sealed 15's, you'd pick the 15's.

 

You're incorrect. There is almost always a difference in sound between one brand's 12s and the same brand's 15s, and it's always due to a difference in frequency response. In general, the bigger the sub is, the more deep bass output it will have, which is what generally makes up the difference that people endlessly debate over when the "10s vs. 12s" (or sealed vs. ported) nonsense flairs up.

When you have a sub with a stronger output in the lowest octave or 2, you get the sound that people typically associate with larger subs. Get a sub that's got a weaker output in the lowest octaves, and all of a sudden now it's "fast" "punchy", blah blah blah. It all boils down to frequency response. There are plenty of 12" subs out there capable of playing deeper than a lot of 15s, so the size of the sub isn't necessarily going to mean you're getting the sound you want, but IN GENERAL, the bigger subs play deeper.

 

i thought that's what i said, essentially the same sound, just with more low end extension. but i'm only going by what i've heard, 2 seperate cars i've heard people go from 12's to the same model 15's, both cars had sealed boxes and the rest of the systems stayed the same. i dont have the technical knowledge to explain exactly why, the way you can.

my point was, if you forget about the super low end, which will mostly only be useful for rap, the 40-70hz stuff that is more common in rock music will sound just as good as the same model 12's, only louder, correct?

 

In most cases, a larger sub will have slightly higher sensitivity, but the differences that people identify are the frequency response differences, and not necessarily the sensitivity.

The low end that you're attempting to ignore, while subtle, is what generally gives subs that "quick" or "slow" signature. Most people's idea of "deep" bass is 50-60hz, so they don't identify the 30hz tones as "bass" but it does shape the overall quality of a driver's sound.

Plus, in the tiny sealed enclosures that everybody likes to run these days, subs actually start to roll off as high as 60, 70, sometimes 80hz! It seems foolish, but it's not at all uncommon for some of the subs out there to roll off at around the same frequency that people low-pass them at. So in the case of these types of subs, if a 10" starts to roll off at 70hz and a 12" doesn't start to roll off until 60hz, there's going to be a VERY audible difference, which I suppose you may be attributing to sensitivity. I suppose the speaker's difference in sensitivity AT THAT FREQUENCY is the same issue as the frequency response differences that I'm preaching.

 

Blind Folded? I'm legaly blind, no need

It all boils down to preference! What you (or in this case, Me) likes... Are you competeing for SPL, flat response across 20-20khz, or just what makes your ears come alive?

For me it's the ears... Being that I'm blind & a musician (insert your joke here), I've just prefered ported... like acoustic guitars and drums... ported?

No difference in how a speaker sounds in size? So do a Ukulele & acoustic bass guitar sound the same? Not to my ears...

Not that I haven't heard 15's I like, I have a set in my home, but for the most part, I do not prefer the sound of 15's in a car...

Final note... go by what your ears like...