Str8upChevy

Ok, I need your advice. I have a competition series MA Audio 4400W amp & (2) 12" Pioneer subs that handle 3000W each. (I'll only be running 2200w rms though the amp though) I actually had this amp & subs in my 98 Vette before I totalled it, and it sounded REALLY good in there. BTW, I'm a drummer that only listens to hard rock, therefore I like extremely Tight bass.

What I'm wondering is,....do you think I really need to run a Power Cell battery? I was running a Kinetic HC800 in the Vette and it seemed to work pretty good. I'm just wondering if it's absolutely neccessary to run one of these power cell batteries at 2200w rms? Would a strong Fared cap do the trick?

I know I'll need a stronger alternator and some 0 gauge wire for the install, but I'm not too sure about the battery. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I can easily build an 800HP motor, but when it comes to electronics, I might as well be def & blind. Thanks in advance!!!

MrPhotographer0

All of my buddies that run anything over 2000 always go with the second battery. The last bad sound system i've seen was running like hydraulic hose size power wire on the battery and always said capacitors weren't worth a crap.

I've always had 1000W so i wouldn't know how to tell you to do it, but google and we are your friends..

The Project

iTrader: (6)

Start with the Big 3 upgrade. You can also add a factory GM 140 amp alternator.

Don't bother with a cap. Waste of money.

See if this does the trick. If not, then add a second battery, but do the Big 3 and alternator change first before you decide.

Str8upChevy

Yeah, I'm actually getting a 160 amp alternator for it. I guess I'm unfamiliar with the "Big 3" upgrade. What is that if you don't mind me asking?

The Project

iTrader: (6)

It's an electrical/ground upgrade. A MUST for our car. I have mine done in 0 gauge. Cost me just under $200 finding everything off ebay.

Here are a few links.

https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/car-...3-upgrade.html

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubbthre...e/1#Post312025

Str8upChevy

Thanks! Yeah I just did a search and found that thread. Looks like I'll be doing some big wire upgrading for sure!!!

windowrattler

iTrader: (3)

The battery doesn't make any power. For a proper electrical supply it is all on your alternator to provide the power. Having extra batteries is actually just hiding the real problem of too small an alternator.

Str8upChevy

That's not completely true. I understand that running a power cell (or second battery) doesn't make power. That's not why it was installed on my Vette. Before I installed that second battery, I replaced the stock 98 Vette alternator with a 160 or 180 amp unit. Every time my bass hit (at 2200W RMS) my headlights flickered so bad people thought I was flashing my lights at them.

After I installed the power cell, it quit doing that. Maybe if I had changed all the main battery/alternator wires to something bigger that would have been enough, but stereo shop didn't say anything about that. I think the they just wanted to sell me a $150 power cell battery.

That being said, I do know for a fact that having one on a high powered sound system definitely helps. The thing I'm now learning though, is that with the right wiring I may not need one for my setup. But, as far as just running a bigger alternator by itself, I seriously doubt that will be enough for 2200 watts rms.

regal301

i have 2 12" orion xtr's and a orion xtr 1000 watt rms amp in my 98 blazer,and i have 2 optima red tops for a reason.

you need the second battery.no alternator or bigger wire will help,you need battery capacity.one optima under the hood and one in the back with the amp.

MikeSmith0890

An alternator is going to increase your power supply. And a larger alternator is needed. But when it comes to a second battery, your first battery can only hold so much of a charge, so even if you have a 200amp alternator Battery 1 can only hold x amount of power rendering the remainder alternator amperage useless. To make use of that power multiple batteries are needed. By combining the capacity of battery 1 and battery 2(3 or 4 even) the alternator is able to put more use to the power it is putting out rather than having it go to waste.

In your situation, especially with our cars, yes a larger alternator is needed, as well as atleast the Kinetic hc800. (I personally prefer powermaster batteries for audio but the kinetics are great as well)

fireturd350

iTrader: (8)

I'll chime in since I was in this boat and made the wrong choice before. Every situation is different, but just like any other project the weakest link will be your downfall. I'm running 2 1200w rms amps, 2 batteries (conventional under hood, and a yellow top in the car), 2 capacitors, and 0 to 4 AWG wiring.

I upgraded ground connections, alternator to battery, and etc. I also made sure my factory replacement alternator was putting out the correct amps, they can wear down overtime. I put on a smaller pulley I bought off ebay cheap to effectively give me around 15% overdriven ratio. I added 2 caps (1 on each amp to measure voltage and help with demand, no clue if they really do anything). I also added a new yellowtop to back of the car, which made my wiring a lot easier and extra capacity.

After all that I was able to turn it up a little bit for a few minutes then the reserve on the batteries ran out and would start clipping so I had to turn it down. I'm looking into getting a large case alternator eventually since that's a fairly easy swap and there not that expensive.

As for batteries most auto batteries are basically the same there just rebadged or have different covers snapped on them. https://www.thirdgen.org/forums/car-...-why-some.html

Str8upChevy

I don't think I really need to do any more than what was in the Vette since I'm using the same amp and subs. With the 160 amp alternator, the 0 gauge wiring, and the second battery in back, I had no problems with any sort of clipping or flashing lights. I do think I'll go ahead and get the "Big 3" upgrade while I'm at it just to be on the safe side. Apart from that I should be just fine.

Thanks a lot for all the input guys, I appreciate it!!!

F A T B O Y

Honestly you shouldn't need a second battery. Your amp isn't putting out a true 2200w rms, i'm almost 100% sure. Not to mention the impedance rise from your box, then you're seeing even less wattage.

I ran 3kw (TRUE 3000w) through my car for a month or two, 120amp alt, big three in 1/0 and only got minimal voltage drop.

Now i'm pushing 3kw constant, plus 1250 on my mids & highs, but i added two kinetik 2000's. (three batts total)

and @ wittowrattler. That's entirely untrue. Batteries store energy, LOTS of it. I was seeing pretty bad voltage drop untill i added my additional two batteries. Now as long as my alt is charging the batteries i can keep drawing 3000w steady from them, seeing absolutely NO voltage drop. The batteries charge between current draw spikes.

frostindahouse

Just an FYI, the ONLY time you need an extra battery is if your going to run the audio system with the engine off, or if you like to blast it at idle (where your alt is not making full power), or another more advanced reason like going to a higher voltage.

If your lights dim, or you experiance a severe voltage drop, you either need to do the big 3 or get a bigger alternator, or both, unless they only dim at idle, in which case a second battery could help.

Caps are useless.

F A T B O Y

You'll need an extra battery(ies) or a bigger alternator anytime your current draw is higher than what your alt is producing. Batteries AREN'T only if you're playing without the engine running, or at idle. If your experiencing voltage drop at high rpm, an extra (or larger) battery will help substantially.

EDIT: But i will agree with you, capacitors are virtuously useless.

frostindahouse

I disagree, i think adding another battery is going around the problem. If your curretn draw is higher then what your alt is producing, then your batterys wont even get charged.

Ive competed in SPL for 3 years now, I have a blazer with a 300 amp alternator and a little over 5k RMS from lows mids and highs, and i only run one battery.

F A T B O Y

SPL for three years... What class do you run?

300 amp alt... who makes it?

5k rms... who makes the amps?


I'm not trying to call you out, but i compete also. But where you're saying "If your curretn draw is higher then what your alt is producing, then your batterys wont even get charged." is total BS.

Yes, a larger alternator is ALSO an answer to voltage drop, so is adding batteries.

I think competing without a battery bank is ridiculous.

F A T B O Y

And i was doing a little research on that particular amp. It turns out it's rated at 16v, and over rated on wattage.

BUT i also read that it's a power hog.

It's it class D amp, or is it class A/B circuitry? A/B tend to be power HOGS.

EDIT: also, what ohm load are your running the amp at?

frostindahouse

You really dont agree with that statement? That's electronics 101. If your sucking more power then your making...you get a voltage drop. The big 3 helps move the energy more efficiently, so that solves a lot of peoples drops right there. Adding a battery will NOT help if your load is more than your alt's output. AS I said before its going AROUND the problem...Sure if you drive a little with your system off, and then drive with the system on...it will appear like your drop is gone, but its not, the battery is masking the problem, which is the charging system itself.

Batteries store energy. Thats all they do. If you cant make enough power to feed your audio system, you need to upgrade your charging system.



I don think its appropriate to hijack this thread, its not about me, its about whether or not a second battery is useful.

F A T B O Y

This is about the most ridiculous statement I've read in a while. Supplied voltage from your alternator is CONSTANT, voltage draw from your system is not.

And i called you out on your equipment, frost. If you've competed for three years and have all of this equipment (300amp alt, for example) i want to hear about it. I want to know what amps you have that are putting out (or you think are putting out) just over 5kw of power. What class do you run, and what numbers do you put on the meter? What is your box tuned to? Do you meter outlaw, or legal?

I've competed, but my system is a daily set-up. Tuned low for listening, not high for numbers.

But you're right. This is the OP's thread, and i apologize to HIM about the jack.

To the OP. Try it without a second battery. Keep an eye on your voltage, because too low of voltage will damage the amp. If you're experiencing voltage drop (depending on how badly) get another battery(ies), it WILL fix your problem. OR (to make frost happy) a H/O alt.

frostindahouse

Lol dont worry about making me happy, im just trying to share my experience.

Supplied voltage from your alternator is CONSTANT, voltage draw from your system is not.

At a steady RPM and with music, yes. When your driving around, your rpm fluctuates, so does your alt output with that. Ive noticed people like to run a high powered system at idle to "Be cool" and stock alts really dont do anything at idle.

I am not saying that i am the ultimate knowledge in the universe, i could be wrong, Im just sharing what ive learned from trial and error. I have ruined my battery from pulling to much power, and ruined my alt as a result of the battery being ruined...After that I upgraded. What i found was, for non-competition atleast, is that I like it where my alt at idle can handle my system at full.

Ive since went into competing, where that obviously wont work, well atleast without multiple alternators...

Bottom line? we disagree. No biggie, but untill im proven otherwise, i'll stick to what ive learned the hard way.

For the system specs, email me. We'll talk, but i really dont think it has anything to do with this, unless you think im competing with sony xplods or something haha.

MikeSmith0890

I'm going to repeat what I wrote earlier which is 100% true, F A T B O Y is correct, unfortunately for you frost, you're not 100% correct.

I have competed in spl and tell you from experiences the difference extra batteries make, even for a daily system. Let me know and I'll tell you exactly what I was running, the tuning, and the scores. All metering was done legal on the dash using a Termlab with the mic on the passenger side. I've also gotten metered in the kick.

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

couldn't have said it better myself. this is the right place to start. if your charging system's not up to snuff, a 2nd battery is not going to cut it. remember to use a battery isolator as well if you do decide to go with a dual setup. It will make sure charging demands are spread out where they need to go.

Str8upChevy

No need to apologize. The amp I'm running is the MA Audio HK-802SX. (Specs listed below)

To answer your earlier question, I'm running the amp @ 1 Ohm Bridged. What the specs don't tell you is that the 4400W is actually rated @ 17V. - (at 14V. it's rated at 3600W rms bridged) I also realize I'm never going to get the true rated RMS watts that this amp is putting out, which is why I posted half that number. (2200W RMS) Who knows, maybe it was even more than that with running it bridged. IDK I do know that it pounded very hard for over a year in my Vette without any issues to my battery(s) or my alternator.

MA Audio Hard Core Series HK-802SX

4400W RMS 2-Channel High Current Amplifier
500W RMS x 2 @ 4 Ohms Stereo
800W RMS x 2 @ 2 Ohms Stereo
1400W RMS x 2 @ 1 Ohm Stereo
2200W RMS x 2 @ 0.5 Ohm Stereo
4400W RMS x 1 @ 1 Ohm Bridged
Digital LCD Display (Voltage, Temperature & Output Level)
Platinum Plated Connections
Quiet Fan Cooling System
High Quality Power & Protection LED’s
Thermal / Short / Overload Protection Circuitry
0-18 dB Variable Bass Boost
40-250Hz Variable High Pass Crossover
40-250Hz Variable Low Pass Crossover
Remote Bass Control
THD @ 4 Ohm <0.05%
THD @ 2 Ohm <0.1%
THD @ 1 Ohm <1.0%
S/N Ratio: >90dB
Channel Separation: 60dB
Frequency Response: 20-20kHz
Input Voltage Range: 200mV - 8V
Input Impedance: 10k Ohms
Dimensions: 2.7" H x 12.4" W x 27.3" L
2-Year Manufacturer's warranty

frostindahouse

I never said extra batteries don't make a difference, i said focus on the charging system and the big 3 first.

But im done with this thread

I think i may actually add a second battery and see if i notice a difference, but ive never had to as ive never had any voltage drop...Probbably should have pointed out that the one battery i do run is a kinetic 2400 though... Thnks for the input guys.

ellocojorge

iTrader: (1)

if you have a big enough mprimary batt there is no need for a second one at the lower rmsssss lol.

silvereagle

I design electrical systems for fire trucks, police cars, we use 4000watt/ peak, 2000watt/rms power inverters for scene lights. Running that kind of power you should use 4/0 cable, preferably welding cable as it has more effective surface area. And can handle more amperage with out heating up, so you get less heat and resistance at high demand secondly it is much more flexible so it is easier to run through your car. Having a second battery is highly recommended , and here is why watts is an efficiency rating, watts divided by volts = amps, so 4000W/12.5V=320A your not going to find an alternator big enough to allow peak watts out of your amp, 160amp alternator would give you your rms wattage target/ 2000W/12.5V=160A, so even if your running at 2000rpm you cant even replace what is being pulled out of your battery, you want to use a second battery and preferably a deep cycle as it is going to get pulled down a lot, last of all you will need to find a at least a 350amp, fuse or circuit breaker to protect your equipment . I have learned this through actually installing and testing this equipment, if you do it right you will be rewarded by truly awesome performance

Mtparker18

Wrong. the big 3 should be done no matter what. if you add any size amp, you NEED to upgrade the big 3. What"s the point of having a 8g ground wire from your amp to the frame, if the ones under the hood are 10g? You're only getting enough power that is pulled through that 10g.

The bigger alternator will supply more power to the amp. After you do those, then you should add a 2nd battery. If you add another battery, and your alternator isn't that big, it won't charge the 2nd battery.

All the 2nd battery will do is store energy. Your lights will still dim if you just add a battery and don't upgrade the grounds.

regal301

YOU ARE A FOOL!!!!!!!!AMPS DRAW IN SURGES............ ALTERNATORS DONT PROVIDE SURGE CURRENT BATTERYS DO.

A HUGE ALTERNATOR WITH HUGE WIRES WONT HELP YOU WHEN YOU NEED A SURGE OF CURRENT AND THATS WHY YOUR LIGHTS DIM AS THE AMP IS PULLING POWER FROM THE REST OF THE SYSTEM.

A SECOND BATTERY WILL FIX THAT.

TELL YOU WHAT,YOU RUN 0 GAUGE FROM YOUR ALTERNATOR TO BATTERY AND FOR GROUNDS.
HOOK UP A FOSGATE T3001BD AND WATCH YOUR CAR SHUT OFF WHEN THE BASS HITS.

ADD A SECOND OPTIMA AND PROBLEM SOLVED,NO BIG 3 B.S. (my friends bravada)

if you need the big 3 you must have a honda civic with 18 gauge battery cables.

most gm have 10-12 gauge from the alt already

ellocojorge

iTrader: (1)

the battery to chassis on camaros is 14g, the alt to battery may, may be 12 gauge

Mtparker18

First off, I think you diserve a Second, yes a second battery WILL fix that, BUT withouth bigger grounds and a bigger alternator, that battery will be barely charged. When you have more then 800rms then YES you do need a second battery, I never said you didn't. But you can't just add a 2nd battery and not do everything else, the bigger alt and big 3 NEED to be done.

According to ellocojorge, the camaro has 14g and 12g grounds. These are not good for adding accessories, especially amps.

We can sit here all day and argue about this, but the facts show that the big 3 and alternator need to be done.

regal301

you wont get any more out of an alternator by going from the (in case of my blazer)8 gauge to a 4 or zero gauge.the alternator will output the same.alternators charge at a somewhat steady rate and dosnt like severe voltage drops.the battery stores current and supplies those huge bursts.one 105 amp+ alternator can keep up 2 batterys.the amp needs quick bursts of current and sometimes more than one battery can provide through one cable from the front of the car.a second battery in the rear.those bursts wont over draw the steady output of a good alternator.

regal301

all depends on the car that your talking about.

my blazer is 8 gauge from the alternator, and a lot of newer suv's have even heaver cable.

if your alternator cable is small its because of its limited output.

0 gauge on a 35 amp alternator is going to do nothing.

Mtparker18

Well since this is a 3rd gen borad and the op has a camaro, I'd figure I'm talking about a camaro

Just because the wire is small, doesn't mean that it's because of the limited output of the alt. In the 80's there wasn't high power amps or anything that cause high amount of draw, thus they didn't need a heavier power wire.

regal301

RIGHT................ BECAUSE ORION,HIFONICS,EARTHQUAKE,DIDENT ALL MAKE HUGE CLASS A/B AMPS BACK THEN RIGHT?

GM (or any other car maker) USED WIRE RATED TO HANDLE THE ALTERNATOR'S MAX OUTPUT.OTHERWISE I THINK THERE WOULD BE SOME FIRES AND LAWSUITS AND SUCH.............

CHANGING THE GAUGE WONT INCREASE THE OUTPUT OF THE ALTERNATOR OR STOP THE LIGHTS FROM DIMMING.

regal301

WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM ANYWAY,I STATED WHAT I WAS RUNNING,HAD A DIMMING ISSUE AND I PUT A SECOND RED TOP IN AND HAD ZERO LIGHT DIMMING FROM THERE ON.

IM SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE,I THINK YOUR TALKING OUT YOUR ***.............

THE SECOND BATTERY IN THE REAR FIXED IT,AND I HAVE A ELECTRIC OVER HYDRO SNOW PLOW PUMP ON THE TRUCK AS WELL WITH THE STOCK 105 AMP DELCO ALTERNATOR I RUN THE HEAT THE STEREO,A STROBE ALL WINTER SO DONT TELL ME IT WONT KEEP THE BATTERYS CHARGED !!!!!!!!!!!!

THE EXACT SAME ALTERNATOR AS A CAMARO

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

wiring can and will make a difference if you are pushing the demands of the electrical system beyond what it was designed for; the electrical was meant to handle occasional peaks in demand and not over engineered with stereos in mind. You start pushing a bigger stereo and you'll feel those wires get warmer and see a voltage drop at the amps.

think of it this way; your stock fuel lines are big enough to flow for a stock setup and then some basic upgrades. but once you start pushing big horsepower, it will become a restriction and your engine will not put out the power it could, but upping the size of the line will fix that. same thing goes for electrons through wire.

regal301

YOU GOT IT BACKWARDS,THE BIG 3 IS LIKE PLUMBING A 3/4 INCH FUEL HOSE TO A STOCK LO3.

YOU WONT GET MORE OUTPUT FROM AN ALTERNATOR BY RUNNING A HUGE CABLE TO IT.

IF YOU UPGRADE THE ALTERNATOR YOU WOULD THEN UPGRADE THE WIRE WITH IT.

Mtparker18

First off, the caps lock is rediclous. I'm speaking from experience, and not out of my ***. Many people in this thread have said to do the Big 3, yet you're the only person who's opposing it.






OP, take who ever's advice you want.

regal301

Mtparker18 THE OP ADDED A SECOND BATTERY AND SOLVED THE DIMMING. I SAID I DID THE SAME THING AND YOU STARTED TALKING ****



(THE LACK OF STORED ENERGY IS WHAT CAUSES THE DIMMING)

HE FIXED HIS THAT WAY AND I DID TOO.

TIME TO SIT DOWN AND SIP ON A TALL GLASS OF SHUT THE **** UP!

LATER.................................

MikeSmith0890

First of all please stop using caps.. unless you are a 5 year old.. it makes you look like a retard and immediately come off as a dick, since it would appear you're yelling which is by all means unnecessary.

Secondly - Back on topic. The Big 3 Upgrade is one of the most important upgrades you can do to your vehicle, particularly ones like ours that have very insufficient powering and wires. By using a bigger cable such as 1/0 (anything less is pointless when it comes to big 3 honestly) there is less resistance for the power/ground to travel through, thus increasing efficiency, and decreasing the heat put on the wire. By increasing efficiency you also get better power. Currently in my camaro I am running a t1000-1bd, Rockford Fosgate amp at 1 ohm so about 1300 watts rms. On a stock battery running full tilt, i would easily drop down to about 13 volts. Upgrade to an Optima yellow top, I am holding 13.8 (at idle) volts fully hammering on serious low notes. By simply upgrading my wire, at idle I now hold a solid 14.5 volts while hammering away all day long. It does flucuate to the a lowest of 14.2 but on rare occasions. Back when I ran about 5000watts and had 2 extra batteries, the big 3 made an even bigger difference as it kept the wire much cooler and reduced the resistance on the alt allowing it to run cooler and more efficient giving me more power.

So while adding a second battery may have fixed his light dimming, its just a band-aid not a permanent fix to the problem. The Big 3 is a NECESSARY upgrade when doing any audio system or any kind of electrical upgrade. So please, stop making a fool of yourself. K? Thanks.

F A T B O Y

The argument began when a guy said batteries were pointless - without bigger alts. After that got cleared up the conversation went.... well... downhill.

MikeSmith0890

I noticed :/ I put my input in weeks ago about the battery, yet obviously someone still doesn't get it... I'm just trying to clear up the BS that is in this thread that so people can come in here and read an intelligent post and not make a mistake and to better help them as you were/are also doing.

F A T B O Y

Yeah. Some people refuse to learn :/

MikeSmith0890

And it sucks. Because people come in and think they know everything and in the process are putting out false information that while they may have been fortunate enough that it worked for them, they are running the risk that some other user comes in, reads it, thinks they are okay to do the same, and finds out the exact opposite, with maybe melted wire, fried amp inputs, alternators, batteries prematurely dieing, or even an electrical fire.

1ADan

iTrader: (4)

it seems like car audio and all things electrical related is a black arts to some people; there's no mystery how electricity works and how a charging system work and people can save a lot money and heartache with just a little (correct) info.

ASE doc

Just thought Id throw this out there. Powermaster makes a great 250 amp alt that bolted right in to my 87 with a little fab to the bracket. I ran 8 gauge from it to the + term of my yellow top optima and a 4 ga wire from batt- to body. Works well. I havent upgraded engine ground yet but will this summer.