Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

I'm wanting opinion's on the ostrich 2.0 please.

The_Punisher454

I have one, works great! integrates perfectly with Tunerpro RT. Years ago I used a universal type eprom emulator with very mixed success, the Ostrich works perfectly however.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Thanks. I think this is what I'm wanting. I'm new to this and dnt reall know what all is out there.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Worth every penny. That's why I own 3, one for my toy, one for tuning other's vehicles, and one that I use for a test bench/back up/swap with my toy's Ostrich/spare/etc.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Can you just plug this thing in and leave it, or do you just use it to get the right tune and then burn an chip w the info off the ostrich?

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

In my Datsun, using a '7749 ECM, I just leave it in place. I have done the same with other ECMs, such as the '7730, '7427, and similar. I have had issues trying to do the same thing with a '7747 and socket booster. I have an idea for a work around, but don't own a vehicle that uses one of those ECMs, so I haven't needed to try any work around.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I have never owned an Ostrich. Are there any negatives what so ever? Such as losing connectivity through use of a ZIF socket. If you loose the connection for any reason do you need a laptop to regain use of .bin? Is batterylife and resuting failure ever a concern? I am pointing out it is considered a temporary use tool. As opposed to EBL that is permanent. EBL also has datalogging capability and VELearn and supports other functions(boost). Apples/oranges?

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

mine's been in solid use since 2007, never had a single issue. Original battery too.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

So this can be used permanently? I dnt know which ECM I have, I'm sure se of you can tell me off the top of your heads. It's an 85 tpi. I'm sure it's the least desirable one. I have the engine out now, but when I get it back in I'm for sure going to need a tune so I'm trying to get some ideas together. I dnt know what direction to go. I want something pretty easy to use and not break the bank.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Many use the O as a permanent install. Sounds like no issues that way? But can the ECU be placed back into its location with O installed? My EBL can and all I see is the datalogging cable which too can be velcroed out of sight.

PS I had connectivity issues with the ZIF socket losing connection over a bump. But my suspension is very firm.

See EBL here dynamicefi.com

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

This will be my first tuning experience. I've built several engines over the last 15 years or so, but most have been carb and the EFI ones have been all stock so I'm definitely a newb at tuning, but am really interested in getting into it.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

No issues using the Ostrich in a permanent install, many of us have. The ECM can be installed in the factiry location, the Ostrich can be remote mounted or mounted inside the ECM case (in some ECMs, if desired). Battery life should outlive not oy the vehicles they are attached to, but many of us currently posting on this message board.

ZIF sockets can cause problems with any device attached to it, simple solution, don't use a ZIF socket. I don't use one in my car, but have and still do on friend's vehicles, without issue, one even has the EEPROM hanging upside down!

Just like using an EEPROM, code can be swapped in some ECMs that supports boost, so yes it can be used with any current GM OBD1 code, boost or not.

The only "negative" if you want to call it that, is that to datalog and tune at the sqme time, you need to plug in two USB cables, one for the Ostrich and one for the ALDL cable.

I believe the '85 TPI uses s one year only ECM ('302?), but many people swap to a '165 to use either $32 or $6E.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

I've looked into the EBL and it looks like a great tool for somebody w a lot of mods. Mine just mainly is going to need some "tweaking". This is still the 305, just w hyper pistons, p&p heads, lower intake, tubes, and plenum w a LT1 cam, and RR's. I mainly want It performing the best it can (for a 305) with the stock ECM.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

This is great info, thanks. Will the 165 ECM plug into my 85 harness? Or does using another ECM require a harness change?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

the 85 uses the 1226870 worst ecm for tpi, the first upgrade you should do is too the 165 or 730.

http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~davis/z28/ecm_swap/

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the link tunedperformance, I'll have to look at that more tonight.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

with a 165 ecm memcal you can buy a moates.net d2 and solder it in and pug in the ostrich. This is one I did for a guy using a 730. It will save you from buying the g1.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Sweet! Are these 165 easy to find? Are TPI cars all they came on?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

the 1227165,16198259 or 16198445 is easy to come bye used tpi f and y tpi , the memcal you can start with one from a 305 or 350. application list memcal will change per application.

ASTRO 87-90 ECM (2.5L)

BLAZER S10/JIMMY S15 87-88 (2.5L)

BLAZER S10/JIMMY S15 91 ECM (6-262, 4.3L), ID
BRAVADA 91

CAMARO 86-89 ECM 8-305 (5.0L)

CAMARO 86-89 8-350 (5.7L)


CAVALIER 86 (2.0L), MT

CIMARRON 86 (2.0L), MT

CORVETTE 86-89

FIREBIRD 86-89 8-305 (5.0L), EFI

FIREBIRD 86-89 8-350 (5.7L)


FIRENZA 86 (2.0L), MT

S10/S15/SONOMA 87-91 (2.5L)

S10/S15/SONOMA 91 (4.3L)

SAFARI (GMC) 87-90 ECM (2.5L)

SKYHAWK 86 (2.0L), MT

SUNBIRD 86 (2.0L), MT

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Ok, good deal. Looks like I need to hit some salvage yards.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

you would be better off getting one in the classifieds here from someone parting out a thirdgen with the memcal.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

I just talked to a friend of mine who I helped pull a TPI off an 87 a few years back and he thinks he can still get ahold of the ECM so I'm gonna see where That goes for now. If I can't get that one ill be looking for one on here. I'm wanting to get the engine back in and running before I buy anything just to make sure it's gonna be ok.

DeathStarr89

iTrader: (1)

That's how mine is, i just picked up a few sockets from Allied and soldered one in. I'll take the $2 solution over a $35 G1 any day of the week.


ZIF sockets are very temporary use only, you will never find any industrial application that uses them for "permanent" mounting of Eproms. Sockets like above provide 90-100% pin contact and the good gold ones don't corrode.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

So is soldering these sockets in something I can do without worry of screwing anything up? Or should I take it to somebody that has soldered on circuit boards before?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

Its pretty easy to instal the dip, if you cut the pins on the old eprom first then unsolder them. This will give you a little more working room.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Thanks tunedperformance. I resent that pm, hope you received it.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

I used to have 3or 4 ECM's from TBI trucks. Will these work too? I have no idea what # they are, but I think I still have them stored away.

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

tbi ecm's and memcals will not work on tpi

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

except the 16197427 can be made to run mpfi

Dominic Sorresso

Anyone here ever swap knock filters from one memcal to another?

Tuned Performance

iTrader: (92)

no, but I have removed them and tossed them in the garbage before

Dominic Sorresso

Looking for way to extend the availability of memcals for the LT-5. The knock filter is what makes it "unique"

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Are you talking about replacement MEMCALs?

Dominic Sorresso

Rbob has suggested a couple of memcals w knock filters that could be close to the LT-5 filter.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

My opinion on this has changed over the years as technology has changed.

If you are starting from scratch, you own one car, and you want an easy tuning solution I'd recommend going with either the EBL or another NVSRAM based project. EBL is great because it does have some auto VE learning functionality typically only found in the high-end aftermarket, and has some basic goodies that are very friendly to new guys. The XDF is very well commented and has many many configurable options for the expert tuner as well. Tuning with ONE cable is the way to go.

I owned a couple Ostrich's for years, and for what they do they are very inexpensive way to provide real time tuning. Their is a number of reasons why I abandoned this tuning method, first and foremost having to use two cables and sync two applications was just plain silly. The lack of auto-ve made cam changes a pain in the butt, and over all the stock code is 30+ years old and very limited (for ME). An EBL will solve a number of those problems, and for not much more cost than the hardware needed to do real time delco tuning.

There is a lot of different stuff out there. I used to be a big supporter of the stock Delco stuff (patched) until I really started playing with the alternatives. You will get different opinions from different people.

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Why would you have to sync two programs when using an Ostrich?

Tuner Pro RT, works for both tuning and logging.

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

Does TP RT create a corrected .bin for BLM or PE from the datalog? I have never used it so I do not know.

Does it allow a flash of that corrected .bin into EEProm? With prom seated in the ECU socket?

I think Anes was referring to this function of EBL or other similar tuning systems.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Well, yes, tunerpro does do both. You still have to sync both 'modules' to their respective comm links.

If you were tuning delco stuff I'd be using Tunercat and datamaster however. Tunerpro is ok for what it is.

-- Joe

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Tunerpro doesn't autotune. On an EBL you use WUD to 'auto ve', and then you flash the bin.

Tunerpro kind of reminds me of EFI live the way the layout is.

More modern systems utilize an AFR table (or many) and wideband input for closed loop, rather than relying on the BLM method + PE adder. (You can still do a PE adder but on a boosted application you want a rich AFR under boost regardless of throttle position)



This stuff will build an open loop VE table based on your wideband. The nice thing is, the newer stuff is a lot more intuitive and user friendly:



EBL is going to get you the closest to this type of functionality without completely ditching the delco stuff.

-- Joe

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Wow! This is a lot of info and I still dnt know what I want or need to do.

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

I really don't see the fascination with "auto tune."

Every time I hear or read of someone using auto tune with any system, they need to tweak it and adjust it, pretty thoroughly in most cases, depending on how picky the tuner/owner is. Why not tune it manually from the start, and have a better understanding of how and engine's performance is affected?

Again, what "syncing" is there? You set up the port(s) in the program (Tuner Pro RT) and hit "connect." It's not difficult at all, and from any and every other system I've worked with, or seen used the steps are the same or very similar, so it's really a moot point.

Tuner Pro is great, because it's user customizable, and can be used with just about any EFI out there, as long as someone can make the supporting files to work with the specific target hardware. Not many other programs (none that I know of actually) allow for such diverse interfacing.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Because tuning a VE table by hand takes forever. What is there to understand? You add and subtract fuel. Actually, the whole basis around the delco fueling logic is to maintain a stoich AFR for emissions purposes. It's not a performance oriented system. On some of my outrageous combos I used to have to run so much in open loop because no matter how I tinkered with the o2 thresholds the 30 year old logic wouldn't cut it.

Fast forward, it's 2012. Wideband o2, AFR based fuel map, forget about this 'keeping the converter happy' nonsense.


Well you have to connect to the ostrich or other emulator, make sure your bin is sync. You also have to connect to ALDL, and go through the steps to start recording. It's two interfaces, two cables.

Agreed, it's a great free interface to the stock stuff. Like I said I've tried it a number of times. When I used to tune delco stuff from roughly 2000 to just recently I'd user Tunercat because I like the interface better. I am licensed to create my own TDF's for tunercat so the same functionality is there. For logging I always used datamaster because it was vastly superior to any other logging product out there that I tried.


If he wants to get an emulator, an aldl cable, that's perfectly fine. I did it that way for over ten years. But my recommendation is, if he wants to keep the delco platform to get an EBL.

-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Really? "Forever"? I have tuned many vehicles by hand in just a few hours, I usually choose to tune over several sessions spaced out by a few weeks, to get an average of how the vehicle will react to different conditions. I would do this with ANY system, not just a Delco system.

I still do not see why there is all the hype "auto tuning" when in most cases it requires extensive manual editing to be correct anyway.

Speaking about "keeping the converter happy" part, many of us need to retain OEM electronics in order to pass emissions tests, regardless of what the tail pipe sniffer says.


Explain how this is different than any other system, other than some systems only require a single cable, if plugging in one more cable is really so bothersome, then I would suggest maybe looking for a different hobby. I have never been bothered by plugging in two cables to tune. On the other hand, there is also the Auto Prom, which does reduce the number of cables plugged in down to one, you know, if plugging two cables is just too much work.


So let me get this straight, plugging in two cables is too much work, but running multiple programs is not?

I've also tried other logging programs and have looked at Tuner Cat, but just simply can not justify the price of Tuner Cat, or using a different logging program than Tuner Pro, other programs seemed lacking in their interface, while Tuner Pro, and especially Scanner Pro, that is now a part of the V5 of Tuner Pro has many options, and is yet simple to use.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Some combos are easier to tune than others. When you're running cams with well over 300 degrees duration, things get a little tricky.

Also, manuals require extensive VE work. Autos seem to limp by happily.


I understand that. Which is why I recommended he go EBL, not aftermarket.

Apples to oranges. Comparing ALDL and emulation to aftermarket is like comparing a rotary phone to an iphone 5.. For most of the 90s and 2000s the aftermarket stuff sucked really hard. The new stuff, is just straight up amazing.


No.. Two cables, and two programs is a PITA. Again, I got sick of using that stuff and moved on. Have you ever used anything other than tunerpro ? When I started doing this stuff it was Winbin and winaldl. I remember when Moates came out with some ALDL software. The free stuff was.. Free. I opted to go with Tunercat because the interface was nicer, more refined. Datamaster for logging just worked a lot better.

After years and years of frustration with 'stock stuff', I looked at EBL, Holley, Megasquirt, and a few others. I think for most people EBL is a good solution because it's cheap, stock like, and has some good features. I went with Megasquirt for a number of reasons - mainly the tuning software is vastly superior to anything delco like, the functionality is just straight up amazing, and if I need to make logical changes it's written in very well commented easy to read C language. Now that is NOT for everyone.

I can't remember what tunercat is off hand, maybe $150? I bought it years and years ago, along with the xdf editor.

I'm using tunerstudio now and I think the reg fee for that was like $65, which is fairly cheap for what it does.

-- Joe

Ronny

iTrader: (1)

I bought TC a few years ago(2003-2004). I recall it was like $50. Not sure on 2012.

I use VE learn however I still need to manually adjust the cells I did not get hits on(higher MAP). I just did a cold weather .bin and needed to add about 1-3% in those non hit cells. So I will say it still needs the touch after the fact.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

Some stuff have autotune absolutely nailed, others are just a tuning aid.

EzEFI, the prof products one, and MS seem to have part throttle, cruise, and WOT auto tune nailed.


-- Joe

Six_Shooter

iTrader: (2)

Granted cams with more overlap are more difficult to tune, but the Auto Tune systems would only be worse off than tuning manually. A friend's car that I tune has over 300* duration IIRC, and if I strictly went by WBO2 numbers, I would never have been able to get his car to run the way it does, an auto tune system would have been mus worse off, again, I'll stick to tuning manually because EVERY auto tuning system or aid I have seen or used does not get the tune close enough.


How is going EBL any different than using an Ostrich? It's still (mostly) GM hardware, and even though the EBL uses new code, it's still restricted to work within the hardware that the Delco system works. The question was about using an Ostrich, which has been great for many of us, that simply want to tune or tweak the systems that already exist in our vehicles. Getting back to emissions testing, some areas require plugging into the diagnostic connector while the emissions test happens, and as far as I know the EBL does not use stock diagnostic protocols, that would cause a fail in those areas, regardless of tail pipe emissions.

Not at all. Your complaint was about needing to use 2 cables, then you extended it to talking about the interfaces, which I assume you mean software. Using Tuner Pro RT, it's one simple to use interface, one or two cables, depending on your hardware set-up and gives you the ability to tune on the fly when using an emulator, which many aftermarket systems can not do, many log for a period of time, allow you to change the bin and then flash it to the ECU, OBD2 also has this drawback, unless you modify the hardware, such as what a Road Runner from Moates does.

I still have not seen anything "amazing" from the aftermarket that OEMs haven't been doing for years.

I'm still trying to figure out how plugging in two USB cables is such a "PITA". Is it really that hard? Does it really take that long? Do you really have to do it that often?

Yes, I have used other programs and systems, Tuner Pro and the Delco hardware has always worked best for me, including many retrofits into older vehicles.

To be honest, being able to edit the source code for Mega Squirt in C does have my interest, but the rest of the system is still just lacking, MSIII is the first one that has many of the features that I feel should have been included from the start, like VSS, but not just for logging, and a few other things that I'm forgetting right now. The big thing that keeps from buying a system to try it out, is the insistence that they keep using the non-automotive computer connectors, in the area I live in, we go from -40 with high humidity, to over 100* also with high humidity, and that wreaks havoc on true automotive connections that are designed to leave in this environment, let alone something that was only ever supposed to be used on -10 to +80 (or so) and stable humidity conditions. The connectors that a Quebec company sell as a drop in alternative, while being an improvement, are only marginally better than the original MS connectors. Microsquirt addresses the connector issue, but costs quite a bit more than the Megasquirt, it's limited on what it can run, or at least options, and is very difficult to modify to add those features.

Tuner Cats is $69.95, plus you need to buy each XDF individually for $19.95, so if you're tuning something other than $42, you will be into $89.90 just for the ability to tune one car, but wait, that's not RT, that costs an additional $30.00, so now you're up to $119.90, just to tune a vehicle that doesn't use $42, in real time. The $39 donation for Tuner Pro, that is frequently updated with no additional charges ever, seems to very good. I also prefer the Tuner Pro interface over the Tuner Cat interface, I tried the demo for Tuner Cats a while ago, and didn't care for it then, and it seems to have not changed in about 10 years. Also Tuner Cats is limited to a max number of items per TDF, that is not editable, unless you spend more money to buy that option, for another $39.95.

I have a copy of TunerStudio as well, again, I prefer the Tuner Pro interface, for me Tuner Studio is not very intuitive. To access many items you have to open new menus, which gets annoying, to me. I like being able to access whatever parameters I want to look at, all in the same screen, without needing to change tabs.

-- Joe[/QUOTE]

HAHAHA, Tell that to many of the EzEFI owners around here, that constantly complain about their part throttle accel issues, idle not being controlled properly, along with limited functionality. Only one person I know that has that system seems to think it performs decently, though hearing the car drive away, it's not tuned as well as it could be. As long as autotune is based solely on numbers that the ECU sees, it will never be as useful tool IMO.

In the end, this is a forum for discussing Delco systems, namely the systems used in the third gen F-body, and what can be done with it, not what it could be compared to, there is another forum for that, along with many other websites that could be used for that.

Chad85T/A

iTrader: (1)

Anesthes, I'm glad you are talking about the EBL and I have looked at it and it seems like it would be a great too for someone that has a lot of major mods and maybe even some that dnt, but I just dnt think its for me. My engine has no major mods that will require a bunch of tuning, in fact it will run ok on the factory chip. The reason I asked about the ostrich is it seems like what I need to just do minor adjustments to what I already have. This will be my first tuning experience so I dnt really know what to expect, but it seems like the EBL and others like it are geared more toward bigger cubes and camshafts which I have neither of. The LT1 cam is the biggest mod I've made to it, the other is the ported headed and intake so I just can't see where I need something like the EBL.

anesthes

iTrader: (12)

I approach it as a matter of cost vs what you get. I can cost justify the EBL for most people because it's easier to tune, has some snazzy features, and only has one cable.

The ostrich is $175, plus you need memcal adapter which is $35, an aldl adapter (aldu1 for example) $50, and cable for "plug and play" to the ALDL port is $30. (you can save money by making your own, splicing it into the ECM harness, etc). The Ostrich probably comes with a USB cable. So we're at $290. Ebl is like $350-400.

If you find an ostrich used for $50 on the forum with a free ALDL cable, than do that!

Now, that might sound odd of me recommending it (EBL) since I'm not using one, but I'm trying to put myself in the newbies shoes. Starting fresh with zero financial investment.

The Ostrich works too, and the benefit is you can change to different masks since it's just a chip emulator. Don't forget an ALDL cable/adapter. (If you need one PM me, I might unload mine).

You should also check out the delcohacking site. Those guys are smart like Rbob, except there is more than just one of him there.

At the end of the day there is a lot of options, and no wrong choices.

P.s, I wouldn't take a soldering iron to a memcal to save $35 on an adapter. The last v8 memcal I sold I got $150. Is that worth ruining?

-- Joe